not topping from the bottom (Full Version)

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lally3 -> not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 7:16:43 AM)

hi,

in order to encourage me to do better in certain things my dominant has suggested a form of punishment that i would completely detest if i fail

the thing is i know that is the point of punishment and that to submit to punishment is to honour your dominants decision on a particular matter. 

at the moment it is hypothetical because we are still finding out about each other and at the moment he is creating possible scenarios for me to reflect upon.  i am also aware that it is up to me to respond frankly and speak up on any hard limits i might have.

the scenario he has described isnt so much a hard limit as something i would find hard to submit to. 

i am anxious not to top from the bottom with regard to correction because i know it isnt something im supposed to enjoy and because he is becoming more and more each day someone i trust and respect.

if i say to him 'i would find that difficult' he could quite rightly respond 'thats the point' and i know that it is.  if i said 'no way hose' that would be topping from the bottom, interferring with his creative juices and refusing to accept a decision made by someone who is doing his darndest to be fair and thoughtful about things.

on the other hand i could just make sure i dont fail on this particular thing, but at the moment thats like asking a fish not to swim ..... sigh)))

does any of the above make any sort of sense.

lallyx



TracyTaken -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 7:21:16 AM)

quote:

if i say to him 'i would find that difficult' he could quite rightly respond 'thats the point' and i know that it is.


You might say that and see how he responds.

quote:

if i said 'no way hose' that would be topping from the bottom, interferring with his creative juices and refusing to accept a decision made by someone who is doing his darndest to be fair and thoughtful about things.


You just made that judgment for yourself, so there ya go.  After reading about how the phrase is applied here, I don't even believe in the concept anymore.  If you are stating your truth, that's all you are doing.



colouredin -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 7:27:11 AM)

Its something you really have to talk to him about, what is it that you dont like about it etc etc, I know that Sir always says that sometimes its about doing things that you dont enjoy but it depends on what that something is and how comfy you are with it. At the end of the day you dont have to do anything you dont want to for whatever reason. Its your choice. If you feel that it is simply something you dont like the idea of, are capable of and would feel bad if you didnt do it, well you kinda answered your own question



DesFIP -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 7:32:43 AM)

Actually, saying no way jose would be stating a hard limit. Unless you've agreed to it, he can't do it without losing your trust.

As to punishing you for failing, that wouldn't appeal to me. You know, there are things I am never going to be good at and being punished wouldn't suddenly teach me the skills I don't have.

Personally, I much prefer being able to trust my dom with my flaws and being able to turn to him for help in improving. But being told "do it right the first time or else" without any help learning how to do it, and no learning curve? No thanks.

Seems like his way will teach you to hard limit anything you aren't already capable of, which I doubt will be very satisfying. The truth is, that he's setting you up to fail so he can indulge his sadism while telling himself that you deserved it. I'd be more inclined, if into pain play, to look for someone who will do it just because he enjoys it, and doesn't fuck with my head.
YMMV



RCdc -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 7:39:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3
if i say to him 'i would find that difficult' he could quite rightly respond 'thats the point' and i know that it is. .


You're second guessing him - communicate to him instead otherwise the topping from the bottom as you call it really is an issue - your doing it even before the incident has occured.  You're running the relationship if you don't indicate clearly.  It's his choice to make, not yours and not healthy to second guess the outcome.

the.dark.



Justme696 -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 8:37:57 AM)

at OP
personally I don't see anything TFTB in your post. I just see an opinion.
Asking a sub for punishment thoughts I would call Subbing from the Top :P



TracyTaken -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 9:10:30 AM)

quote:

Asking a sub for punishment thoughts I would call Subbing from the Top :P


Why wouldn't it be a good start for Dom who is a skilled negotiator?



lally3 -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 9:44:27 AM)

thanks guys,

after posting this it felt totally wrong, because as youve all pretty much said, i should be talking to him about it and i should have done that first. 

since i have posted this, thanks, youre advice has really helped me to feel less confused about talking about punishment perse.

so, im subbing from the top, thats a much better way of looking at it - .

lallyx



softness -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 10:05:10 AM)

saying "no way Jose!" is not IMHO topping from the bottom ... I would personally choose a more subtle and informative approach but the sentence would have the same meaning.

If communicating in the way established in the dynamic is "topping from the bottom" ... what kind of Top is it in the first place that can be "out Topped" by open and honest communication.

Topping from the bottom can only happen if the Top lets it. It he makes an informed decision about how to go about punishing you with information you have supplied him with ... that is Domination ... If he allows himself to be manipulated by his bottom ... then that is topping from the bottom.

Gets really pissy when open and honest communication is seen as "topping from the bottom" ... and then demonised .. it gives out the message to submissives that they cannot  communicate their wants and needs and fears. This is DANGEROUS for someone new, and for a long time early on in the lifestyle I was very unhappy because I was frightened to communicate what I was thinking and feeling. The fear of being accused of "topping from the bottom" ... or of "being a brat" meant that I got myself into potentially damaging and dangerous situations .. and certainly rushed into things I was not ready for.

Next time someone gets slammed for "Topping from the bottom" when they express their feelings and fears honestly .. people should consider the alternative .. and shudder




DesFIP -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 10:33:09 AM)

Food for thought. You're just talking to him. You haven't even met for coffee yet. And he's already going on about punishing you?

Am I the only one who thinks that a relationship of mutual respect and trust must be established prior to a punishment dynamic being set up?

Sigh.



softness -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 11:56:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Food for thought. You're just talking to him. You haven't even met for coffee yet. And he's already going on about punishing you?

Am I the only one who thinks that a relationship of mutual respect and trust must be established prior to a punishment dynamic being set up?

Sigh.


thinks that even suggesting such a silly idea is an obvious indiction you are neither twue nor subbie ... shame on you!



lally3 -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 1:21:54 PM)

(re-reads original post)

the situation he 'created' for me to consider as a punishment was hypothetical. we are still talking only, it isnt that he is forming a punishment dynamic so much as throwing things into the hat for me to chew on.

what happened when he threw this one in was that i was faced with a scenario that was not 'out there' atall in terms of bdsm, punishment or play but was purely something that i would dislike intensely. 

as a relative newbie i wasnt sure if disliking something intensely was grounds enough to say no, since im the sub he's the dom and it was a punishment scenario.

hence the question to people way more experienced than me.

cheers.  lally



RCdc -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 1:29:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3
as a relative newbie i wasnt sure if disliking something intensely was grounds enough to say no, since im the sub he's the dom and it was a punishment scenario.


Ask yourself this question.  Is the action you dislike morally and ethically negative for you - or does it risk the health and may be incredibly detrimental to you mentally or physically.
If the answer is yes, make it a limit you won't cross (for now) - if the answer is no, I just dislike it, then you need to question why you will not submit to it.  Submission means you dont get to do what you like all the time.
 
the.dark.



lally3 -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 2:55:46 PM)

hi darcy and the dark,

i put myself, hypothetically, into the scene, imagined how i would feel about it and knew i would feel shitty.

why shitty - probably because it would definitely feel humiliating and i have way too much pride, it would hurt and im not a pain slut and because i have my own ideas on how i want to be punished (grin). 

ok, point taken.

probably i should have kept the TFTB out of it, but in a way it seemed salient because initially i wanted to control the whole thing down to 0 votes and throw it out of my pram. 

it wouldnt do me any lasting harm atall - and is something i could submit to if i absolutely had to, but id feel shitty. 

i suppose its easy to bounce about enjoying the fun stuff, the easy to submit to because its horny stuff and the stuff that makes you feel grateful to be you.  the getting to know stage is all about everything though, even the not so good bits that have the potential to arise.  each to their own in this lifestyle and thats what makes it so dynamic.

thanks for helping me to get this sorted everyone.

lally



colouredin -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 3:03:26 PM)

Sometimes its submitting to the stuff that makes you feel shitty that actually makes you feel better, IMO i dont ever feel that submissive if i am submitting to stuff that i would choose to do anyways. 



Nineveh -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 4:28:18 PM)

I Think that really is the point of punishment, if it is easy to submit to and you enjoy it it is not punishment.  On the other hand, if it something that makes you feel really shitty, and it is punishment for something that you really cannot succeed at you really need to have a discussion with your Dom about what is expected of you and what the consequences ofr that are.  After all, even if it is a punishment yopu will accept in extreme circumstances if it is a consequence for something which happens often it will not be extreme circumstances and you will end up not enjoying somethjing that could end becoming a fairly major part of the relationship. 

There is a simple step between Hard limiting it and shutting up and bearing it and that is communication, which I really think is the best plan. Of course if your Dom insists that you should be punished in this way that you really feel shitty about for something that you already know you are going to fail at then he may not be the Dom for you.



colouredin -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 4:45:22 PM)

edit cos its late im tired and i hate that little name thing in the right hand corner



SailingBum -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 4:49:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

hi,

in order to encourage me to do better in certain things my dominant has suggested a form of punishment that i would completely detest if i fail

the thing is i know that is the point of punishment and that to submit to punishment is to honour your dominants decision on a particular matter. 

at the moment it is hypothetical because we are still finding out about each other and at the moment he is creating possible scenarios for me to reflect upon.  i am also aware that it is up to me to respond frankly and speak up on any hard limits i might have.

the scenario he has described isnt so much a hard limit as something i would find hard to submit to. 

i am anxious not to top from the bottom with regard to correction because i know it isnt something im supposed to enjoy and because he is becoming more and more each day someone i trust and respect.

if i say to him 'i would find that difficult' he could quite rightly respond 'thats the point' and i know that it is.  if i said 'no way hose' that would be topping from the bottom, interferring with his creative juices and refusing to accept a decision made by someone who is doing his darndest to be fair and thoughtful about things.

on the other hand i could just make sure i dont fail on this particular thing, but at the moment thats like asking a fish not to swim ..... sigh)))

does any of the above make any sort of sense.

lallyx


I am begining to wonder if some ppl put any thought into their post.  Punistment is supposed to be not something you enjoi.  and NO!

BadOne



colouredin -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 4:55:53 PM)

Punishment isnt meant to be enjoyable no but its not meant to be too damaging either



Sundowner -> RE: not topping from the bottom (3/5/2008 5:39:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

saying "no way Jose!" is not IMHO topping from the bottom ... I would personally choose a more subtle and informative approach but the sentence would have the same meaning.

If communicating in the way established in the dynamic is "topping from the bottom" ... what kind of Top is it in the first place that can be "out Topped" by open and honest communication.

Topping from the bottom can only happen if the Top lets it. It he makes an informed decision about how to go about punishing you with information you have supplied him with ... that is Domination ... If he allows himself to be manipulated by his bottom ... then that is topping from the bottom.

Gets really pissy when open and honest communication is seen as "topping from the bottom" ... and then demonised .. it gives out the message to submissives that they cannot  communicate their wants and needs and fears. This is DANGEROUS for someone new, and for a long time early on in the lifestyle I was very unhappy because I was frightened to communicate what I was thinking and feeling. The fear of being accused of "topping from the bottom" ... or of "being a brat" meant that I got myself into potentially damaging and dangerous situations .. and certainly rushed into things I was not ready for.

Next time someone gets slammed for "Topping from the bottom" when they express their feelings and fears honestly .. people should consider the alternative .. and shudder




There are times, soft, when I very much admire your thought processes - I think this is a particularly sensible view.

Have some yellow clappy things,   [sm=applause.gif]   [sm=applause.gif]   [sm=applause.gif]   because there's a slightly greater chance ppl will read what you've said if it has clappy faces on it, and I think ppl should read it.

(And so good to see you have a "humble" opinion - show you know your place in the scheme of things - good girl).



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