Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (Full Version)

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cyberdude611 -> Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 1:54:29 PM)

How can you say you are losing a war at the same time as saying the troops succeeded? If the war is lost, then that means the troops failed to accomplish the primary goals of the operation. And every one of our soldiers will tell you that.

The Democrats are trying to walk a fine line of supporting the troops but bashing the war.

Im so tired of the double-talk. If you want to say the war is a failure...fine, say it. But you cant have it both ways. If the war is a failure, then our troops have failed as well.

It's like a football coach saying. "Well we lost this game but our players won it." The logic of the statement is flawed.
No matter how hard or how wonderful your players played the game, even running up some record-breaking stats, they still lost the game.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8422.html



kittinSol -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 2:00:24 PM)

Perhaps she meant that the troops succeeded at doing what they were told to do. It's not because the strategy totally failed that it's the troops' fault. The troops obey orders; they're not the puppeteers.



cyberdude611 -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 2:11:36 PM)

Again you are promoting a flawed arguement.

If your football team did everything the coach said, and performed well, and the reason they lost was because of coaching strategy....do they not still lose the game? Do you think it makes them feel better that the reason they lost was because of the coach?

But, this is politics. I guess its not supposed to be logical.

What the Democrats fail to understand is that we are ONE country. We win as a country and we lose as a country. If we lose in Iraq, we ALL lose. If we win, we ALL win.



justdavid -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 2:12:15 PM)

Becasue in the modern world it is not about occupying land but being able to govern it and not having to keep most of your defense's resources and budget there.

This is also what scares me to death is people who cannot grasp this very simple straightforward fact.

Edited Meant to reply to the OP



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 2:13:46 PM)

Is he a politician, I don’t know him but I guess he is. It’s a way of being critical of the war without looking like you don’t appreciate the efforts of the soldiers involved. I drove my car to the shops I could have walked but my car did as instructed.



popeye1250 -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 2:26:07 PM)

Cyber, consider the source.
Pelosi's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Politicians don't get to where they are because they're "smart."



domiguy -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 2:26:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

And every one of our soldiers will tell you that.




I love when a discussion is started on a completely flawed premise.

What id there never was a chance for success....Maybe success could be measured by staying alive...Just coming home mentally as well as physically sound...In this war I think "ALL" of our soldiers would consider that to be a success.

have any of you ever conducted an actual debate before?



domiguy -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 2:29:28 PM)

In all seriousness, the troops have done everything that was asked of them...It was the plan that was a failure. Why can't you grasp this notion?

What are you suggesting? That they should have ignored their orders and stayed home?


So you think the war is a success? Can you read? do you understand everything that has transpired up to this point in time?



If it makes you feel any better then please be the first to call our soldiers failures...I don't understand that you seem to be incapable of understanding what Pelosi is implying.


You are simply unable to get out of your own way.



domiguy -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 2:38:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Again you are promoting a flawed arguement.

If your football team did everything the coach said, and performed well, and the reason they lost was because of coaching strategy....do they not still lose the game? Do you think it makes them feel better that the reason they lost was because of the coach?

But, this is politics. I guess its not supposed to be logical.

What the Democrats fail to understand is that we are ONE country. We win as a country and we lose as a country. If we lose in Iraq, we ALL lose. If we win, we ALL win.


Obviously you have never participated or understood much about sports....This is going to be very difficult for you to grasp, but coaches are fired on a regular basis because of their flawed game plans or lack of coaching skills....Very often a new coach will come in and lead the same squad that once experienced defeat to victory....The fans of these misguided teams never thought of their players as being "losers" but just poorly managed.... I know you probably will not be able to understand this concept.. however, I'm sure that "all" of our soldiers understand the message that I am attempting to convey to you.



kittinSol -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 2:53:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Is he a politician, I don’t know him but I guess he is.



Nancy Pelosi. She's a 'she'. She's the Speaker of the House of Representatives. She's a democrat, which is why cyberdude has issues with her.




cyberdude611 -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 2:55:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Is he a politician, I don’t know him but I guess he is.



Nancy Pelosi. She's a 'she'. She's the Speaker of the House of Representatives. She's a democrat, which is why cyberdude has issues with her.




If a Republican said the same dumb things that she says, I'd have problems with him too.



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 2:57:41 PM)

Right[:D]. I said I didn't know them. I should have said them. Them is non sexual.[8|]



servantforuse -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 3:03:35 PM)

The Democrats are having a big problem with the Irac war. The surge has worked and now they are back pedaling. They can no longer use this as an issue in the November election. They will also be on the wrong side of the fence when McCain debates them on the security of this Country. McCain will be our next President..



kittinSol -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 3:10:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

If a Republican said the same dumb things that she says, I'd have problems with him too.



It would have sufficed to denounce her as being dumb, then. If your agenda was one of fairness to the army, and not of partisan politics, why mention the Democrats at all in your initial post?




farglebargle -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 3:13:21 PM)

quote:

The surge has worked


Wrong.

According to a report released on September 2, 2007, the United States Government Accountability Office -- using benchmarks set in United States Public Law 110-28, providing for appropriations -- at the time of the legally mandated and required GAO assessment of the success or failure of reaching benchmarks, the Iraqis had only met three of the eighteen criteria, a success rate of only 16.67%



cyberdude611 -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 3:22:29 PM)

However violence overall has decreased.



wkdshadow -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 4:01:42 PM)

If the troops accomplish the majority of their missions, then they do succeed. The problem is the half assed thinking that we can force democracy onto people who are fine with Sharia law and dictatorships, and who would vote to go back to the old reigime style if we'd let them. While converting Germany and Japan succeeded, that's a whole other can of worms, and a whole other approach.



farglebargle -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 4:15:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

However violence overall has decreased.


Well, the sectarian slaughter and cleansing is pretty much done. The Sunni extremists have either driven off and/or killed the Shias in the neighborhood, and the Shias have done likewise. Since there's hardly anyone left to kill, of course the numbers will drop.

That says more about the inept occupation, that all those people were just left to die by the occupiers, than anything else...





caitlyn -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 11:44:00 PM)

I would agree with you that the surge has worked and that violence has declined dramatically. The troops have done an amazing job.
 
That said, what are the reasons for going to war? Because we were threatened, in danger, or needed to defend ourselves ... or, if you are a really bad nation, which we just might be, to take someone else's wealth.
 
Well, Iraq was no real threat to us, and we were not in danger from Iraq, and didn't need to defend ourselved from Iraq .. and if we started looting today, in ten years we wouldn't have recovered one one-hundreth of what we have already spent in Iraq.
 
So, Iraq is a failure, because there was nothing to be won in the first place.



meatcleaver -> RE: Pelosi: Iraq is a failure. But the troops succeeded! (2/10/2008 11:56:54 PM)

The violence has subsided bacause America is now paying Sunni insurgents to fight against foreign insurgents. It's working at the moment because its in everyone's interest for it to work but the Sunnis still have no alligience to the central government in Bagdad and who knows what they will do when the dollars dry up. The Iraqi state doesn't really exist because there is no central government that has power over the whole country. Should America cut and run, Iraq will collapse like a house of cards. If you impose a regime through violence, you have to maintain it through violence which is exactly what America is doing. As for liberating Iraq, that was always propaganda and an excuse to occupy an oil rich state, there can be no other reason. Like all imperialist jollies, they usually end in failure if there are not enough self interested people willing to collaborate and its doubtful the US has convinced enough Iraqis that American interests are their interests.



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