RE: Have you Brits never read 1984?

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meatcleaver -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/1/2008 2:05:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vampyrefledgling Due respect, NorthernGent, some Americans swear loyalty to a piece of paper and a flag? Really, seems as simplistic as saying the Brits swear fealty to a crown. It's not that simple and while some of us are not the brightest crayons in the box, others are loyal to the ideals that flag symbolizes and know more about that piece of paper than you might think. ~Fledgling As for Orwell and his book The survival of the monarchy in Britain has always been a very tenuous affair. We have executed one king, sent another packing and made several accept the supremacy of Parliament. The institution of the monarchy is an integral element within the constitution and its position is to prevent dominance of the country by a politician (such as America and France have with their Presidents) and prevent the military becoming under the control of a political party. The British would have no truck with the monarch wielding power but should a political party think it is the country and not just a political party, the monarchy can intervene and would probably have public backing. However, I don't know anyone who has ever sworn alligience to the country, the military swear alligence to the monarch (to keep them out of political hands) and my guess if politicians tried to make people swear alligence they would get a fully rounded 'Fuck off!' for their efforts. As for CCTV cameras, people do whatever they want and really don't modify their behaviour because of them, as many of those dumb TV shows based on CCTV footage have shown. People fight, fuck and piss in front of them. There is far too much footage on them to be policed anyway but they have proved successful at catching terrorists where the authorities are willing to spend the time of manpower to find who they are after.

greyangelus -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/1/2008 2:15:35 AM)
quote: Yeah, but it's the best goddamn rag on the planet!! And the song? Makes my heart swell and my eyes mist. We're talking about Stairway, right? Just so you know, I just snorted my coke. Ass [:D][sm=applause.gif]. Just a link for why there is a Pledge in the first place. http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Pledge.htm Basically, a socialist wanted to make money, so he drummed up the idea of a pledge to the flag to sell a lot of magazines.

meatcleaver -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/1/2008 2:30:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertRat quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent ...But, I have heard that some of your crowd like to swear allegiance to a piece of cloth and a song... Yeah, but it's the best goddamn rag on the planet!! And the song? Makes my heart swell and my eyes mist. We're talking about Stairway, right? Bob I think PJ O'Rourke got it about right when he said the American flag was like a badly designed beach towel.

Real0ne -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/1/2008 2:47:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt quote: ORIGINAL: Moloch Have you Yankees heard of the Patriot Act? Game, set and match to Moloch.... yup! buys both of ya a drink!

LadyEllen -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/1/2008 4:25:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I believe I read somewhere that the UK have 25% of the CCTV coverage in the world (allegedly) So when someone goes missing, gets attacked or murdered - the police can tell us where they have been, who they were with and what they were doing just before they go missing, get attacked or are murdered. Cool hey. the.dark. Indeed. The enormous success which 24hr video surveillance affords us in reducing crime and detecting offences makes our safe and happy society the envy of the world. In fact it is so successful that we apparently need identity cards introduced so that we can be even more safe and happy. Oh! How my heart swells with pride at the wisdom of our glorious leaders! And because of these wondrous circumstances, we have no need of police on the streets; instead we have people at the police station watching TV. I would say that I find it odd, when the whole sad decline of society is being watched so closely to such an extent, that this decline can then be discounted so readily and the peasantry written off as merely revolting, but then I may be being watched. E

Aneirin -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/1/2008 5:02:20 AM)
Perhaps the next thing we need is loud speakers on the cameras to shout; 'Oi you, we are watching you!' Or better still a lazer or gattling gun. Hmmm wonder if they would atach tazers to them. ID cards soon maybe, imbedded chips next like the film 'Minority Report' all bears down to ' The Prisoner ' - Total Control!!!

Real0ne -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/2/2008 8:25:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Indeed. The enormous success which 24hr video surveillance affords us in reducing crime and detecting offences makes our safe and happy society the envy of the world. In fact it is so successful that we apparently need identity cards introduced so that we can be even more safe and happy. Oh! How my heart swells with pride at the wisdom of our glorious leaders! And because of these wondrous circumstances, we have no need of police on the streets; instead we have people at the police station watching TV. I would say that I find it odd, when the whole sad decline of society is being watched so closely to such an extent, that this decline can then be discounted so readily and the peasantry written off as merely revolting, but then I may be being watched. E Did they ever figure out what went wrong with them on 7/7? :) Power failure maybe....

Real0ne -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/12/2008 4:15:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Did they ever figure out what went wrong with them on 7/7? :) Power failure maybe.... I guess that question was off limits huh? Its still a question I will forever have till someone one comes up with an answer to how such a thing could happen with such a sophisticated surveliance system.

LadyEllen -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/13/2008 2:25:08 AM)
Only off limits for as long as youre [Awaiting Approval] This is the thing - the cameras just record people moving about, they dont show (Sims style) who's pissed off at any time and about to do something bad. The cameras were useful in identifying the suspects later and tracing their movements from home to the would be suicide bombings and from there to their bolt holes. Not long after, we used the cameras to follow a suspect to the underground station and through it, and using the facility we had him shot several times in the head. Only then was it discovered that he was the wrong man (although I believe they should have known that much earlier) - a young Brazilian guy who looked a bit like the right man. The problem overall, is that we are not yet of a mind to treat anyone as an offender until there is an offence. This means the cameras are useful for detection purposes but only after the event. This would serve as a deterrent, except that the justice system is far too lenient on those convicted, even when theyre caught on camera - the general attitude seems to be "so what if I get caught?" Nice though to hear this week of three young thugs getting life sentences for murdering a man who confronted them about vandalising his wife's car. E

Politesub53 -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/13/2008 3:04:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Did they ever figure out what went wrong with them on 7/7? :) Power failure maybe.... I guess that question was off limits huh? Its still a question I will forever have till someone one comes up with an answer to how such a thing could happen with such a sophisticated surveliance system. Sorry Real i missed your question first time round. CCTV in the UK isnt all its cracked up to be. Many cameras, especially those operated by public authorities, often dont have film in, or are poorly maintained. This is due to keeping the costs down on the public purse. I am not sure how cameras would have identified the bombers among the 7 million users of the London underground, most of whom carry a bag of some sort. [;)]

badprofessor -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/13/2008 10:01:45 AM)
While I abhor the notion of installing CCTV cameras to spy on the public, one must ask does it really matter when satellites orbiting the earth are cabable of taking the same images in almost the same amount of detail?

Politesub53 -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/13/2008 10:08:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: badprofessor While I abhor the notion of installing CCTV cameras to spy on the public, one must ask does it really matter when satellites orbiting the earth are cabable of taking the same images in almost the same amount of detail? The difference is that cctv is used in many places that satelites cant reach. Initially cctv was used to catch shop lifters ect, but over time, at least in the UK, it has become a means of cheap policing.

OmegaG -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/13/2008 10:09:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Thing is with the English, Cyberdude, the public domain isn't the be all and end all for us, so we're indifferent to what goes on there. But, I have heard that some of your crowd like to swear allegiance to a piece of cloth and a song. 'Could be wrong, though. Of course the second line of that pledge is "and to the Republic for which it stands" but who ever listens to the words they say.

RealityLicks -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/13/2008 10:46:05 AM)
quote: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx newspaper Steve is a middle-aged IT consultant who lives in a bungalow on a smart private estate in south west London. He has never committed a criminal act. When he goes to business meetings, he wears a suit and tie, but when he walks around his local high street, he dons a hoodie. He does it on principle. 'I don't disapprove of the technology in its rightful place,' Steve told me, 'but we have an unregulated mess. It hasn't reduced crime in any real sense - it's displaced it in some cases.' Media reports always say there are 4.2 million CCTV cameras in the UK, but they have been using that figure for the past two years. So it's a safe bet we have at least six million by now, and there is no central register. You can use the Data Protection Act to request a copy of your own image from any particular camera, but that is simply a way of harassing CCTV owners, not safeguarding your identity.

ottRopesandKnots -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/13/2008 12:27:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark The use of cameras to track people in the street is banned in Canada and Germany. I don't believe that to be true for Canada (would love a link if you have one). I know for certain there are well marked police cameras on Younge Street in Toronto, and near Ottawa in Hull. Certainly their use isn't as widespread as perhaps in Britain, but video monitoring of public places by the authorities isn't banned to the best of my knowledge.

philosophy -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/13/2008 12:27:50 PM)
......have i ever written 1984? Yup, and also taught a course on it....... ....things that come to mind are the concept of continuous war (John McCain took note?), being at war allows the government to continuously lift civil liberties (Patriot Act anyone? as has already been noted by others), and of course the demonisation of Goldberg........an enemy whose very face can cause riots. After all, the main theme of 1984 is not the surveillance society, that would be a very short sighted view of a great piece of literature. The main theme is concerned with what we have to do, as a species, in order to treat other humans as sub-human enemies. The points contained inside that idea have been effectively taken on by the water-boarders and their apologists. So yes......us Brits have read 1984......may i recommend it to more Americans?

ottRopesandKnots -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/13/2008 12:33:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: badprofessor While I abhor the notion of installing CCTV cameras to spy on the public, one must ask does it really matter when satellites orbiting the earth are cabable of taking the same images in almost the same amount of detail? Currently those spy satellites aren't capable of taking those same images/videos of all those places simultaneously, nor can they capture audio as many of the CCTV systems do. Some of the monitoring systems around LA for example use multiple location microphones which can detect gunshots and then triangulate the relative position of the gunfire.

badprofessor -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/13/2008 1:13:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ottRopesandKnots quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark The use of cameras to track people in the street is banned in Canada and Germany. I don't believe that to be true for Canada (would love a link if you have one). I know for certain there are well marked police cameras on Younge Street in Toronto, and near Ottawa in Hull. Certainly their use isn't as widespread as perhaps in Britain, but video monitoring of public places by the authorities isn't banned to the best of my knowledge. The ones in Toronto, and I imagine Ottawa, are there for "trial purposes". I think they are planning a bunch for the subway as well. It's basically the first nail in the coffin. Bear in mind that in Canada it is not considered to be under federal jurisdiction, so it wouldn't be a national program as it is in the U.K.

badprofessor -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/13/2008 1:19:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ottRopesandKnots quote: ORIGINAL: badprofessor While I abhor the notion of installing CCTV cameras to spy on the public, one must ask does it really matter when satellites orbiting the earth are cabable of taking the same images in almost the same amount of detail? Currently those spy satellites aren't capable of taking those same images/videos of all those places simultaneously, nor can they capture audio as many of the CCTV systems do. Some of the monitoring systems around LA for example use multiple location microphones which can detect gunshots and then triangulate the relative position of the gunfire. Wow, that's interesting. I never thought of the audio aspect to the extent that you describe. I'm sure you could fool it if you really wanted to. So, it seems the UK is not the only place with CCTV and other surveillance technologies in general use in public spaces.

Politesub53 -> RE: Have you Brits never read 1984? (2/13/2008 1:34:36 PM)
The UK have a few other systems in use, supposedly for terror purposes. A car entering the City of London, can be tracked from the moment it enters the city. There is also number plate recognition so they can tell if its stolen, owned by someone with a criminal record, even if its taxed and insured. This system is also in use on some of our motorway routes.

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