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Here we go again! - 1/28/2008 11:08:36 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080129/ap_on_re_us/immigration_activist_church

Yeah, they're so "law abiding".
I wonder if sen Obama will sympathise with her?
The guile of these assholes never ceases to amaze me.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 1/28/2008 11:15:34 PM >

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RE: Here we go again! - 1/28/2008 11:13:20 PM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
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Sorry, the link did not work for me.

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RE: Here we go again! - 1/28/2008 11:16:15 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Try it now, I misses a "/".

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RE: Here we go again! - 1/28/2008 11:32:25 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

I find this little tidbit from the article particularly telling.
Bold emphasis Mine...

quote:

Crisostomo, who spoke through a translator, said she left Iguala Guerrero, Mexico, after she was unable to find a job that would allow her to buy enough food for her two boys and one girl, ages 9 to 14.
In July 2000 she paid a smuggler to take her across the border

She has been here for 7 1/2 years and she still needed to speak through a translator?
Brings back the lovely memory of the illegal mother who got face time on our local news (with a translator, of course) as she complained that Sheriff Joe was moving her illegal (and felonious) son from the county jail to a more permanent location and this would create a hardship for her on visiting day.
I am still waiting to hear back from My local CBS channel as to why I have to be distracted by the spanish subtitles on My ten o'clock news. They take up half the screen, and they are also running subtitles on some of the commercials as well as the late night programming. I have told them I will be switching to another channel for My late night news.
Oy!

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 1/28/2008 11:34:18 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 4

RE: Here we go again! - 1/28/2008 11:37:23 PM

Asherdelampyr

Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

I find this little tidbit from the article particularly telling.
Bold emphasis Mine...

quote:

Crisostomo, who spoke through a translator, said she left Iguala Guerrero, Mexico, after she was unable to find a job that would allow her to buy enough food for her two boys and one girl, ages 9 to 14.
In July 2000 she paid a smuggler to take her across the border

She has been here for 7 1/2 years and she still needed to speak through a translator?
Brings back the lovely memory of the illegal mother who got face time on our local news (with a translator, of course) as she complained that Sheriff Joe was moving her illegal (and felonious) son from the county jail to a more permanent location and this would create a hardship for her on visiting day.
I am still waiting to hear back from My local CBS channel as to why I have to be distracted by the spanish subtitles on My ten o'clock news. They take up half the screen, and they are also running subtitles on some of the commercials as well as the late night programming. I have told them I will be switching to another channel for My late night news.
Oy!

I just wish I cold order a cheeseburger without having to learn Spanish... seems like the only english-speaking fast food place by work is Taco Bell (I know, its sad)

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RE: Here we go again! - 1/28/2008 11:46:11 PM

Termyn8or

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Joined: 11/12/2005
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You remember the scene in Reservoir Dogs where the guy says "This is the world's smallest violin" while rubbing his two fingers together ? Well a thousand of my violins could fit into his violin.

We either care for this country and those in it LEGALLY, or we care about everyone else. Take your fucking pick. Just how much tax money do YOU have to give away ?

And give your own money, no matter how you got it. I ain't giving mine, not to illegals, in fact not to anybody I do not owe. There is nothing in the Constitution about charity, it is simply not authorized. THAT IS OUR MONEY, and is collected supposedly to keep things going, like fixing the roads INCESSANTLY and paying off the people who pay off our politicians. OUR politicians, or so we thought at one time.

T

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 6

RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 12:08:49 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

You remember the scene in Reservoir Dogs where the guy says "This is the world's smallest violin" while rubbing his two fingers together ? Well a thousand of my violins could fit into his violin.

We either care for this country and those in it LEGALLY, or we care about everyone else. Take your fucking pick. Just how much tax money do YOU have to give away ?

And give your own money, no matter how you got it. I ain't giving mine, not to illegals, in fact not to anybody I do not owe. There is nothing in the Constitution about charity, it is simply not authorized. THAT IS OUR MONEY, and is collected supposedly to keep things going, like fixing the roads INCESSANTLY and paying off the people who pay off our politicians. OUR politicians, or so we thought at one time.

T

Term, I think most people would agree with you.
Oh, I always tell judges to go fuck themselves like this interloper did, don't you?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 1:07:42 AM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

We either care for this country and those in it LEGALLY, or we care about everyone else. Take your fucking pick. Just how much tax money do YOU have to give away ?

Well, I am pretty well tapped out!

Nor have I ever labored under the assumption that I was giving it away. I am more of the mind that it is stolen from Me! (and you, and her, and him, and them!)

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 8

RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 3:26:17 AM

LadyEllen

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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
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Sorry but I cant work this out.

She's broke in Mexico (I sort of get that bit, though it cant be life and death as there are millions of Mexicans all alive and well) so she seeks out a better life in the US (which I totally understand)

But, if she was broke from where did she get the funds to pay to be smuggled into the US?

And then the $360-00 a week. I have no idea what the cost of living is in Mexico, but it seems a bit steep even by UK standards to hold that $100-00 a week per child in Mexico only allows for her children to "survive". This is £50-00 per child per week and even at our inflated costs for food and clothing etc would be more than sufficient to keep your kids fed, clothed and given a few treats. And it really doesnt add up at all, if one considers she's supposedly living on the $60-00 a week remaining to her, in a country with a higher cost of living.

But what I really, truly, competely dont understand, is that if things are so bad in Mexico how come all the US outsourcing isnt done there? Much closer to the US market, lower transportation cost, shorter supply chain, people who will work for little etc. The only explanation I can come to is that there arent enough workers left in Mexico to do so so, because theyre all "insourced" to the US!

The way I see it (and I could easily be wrong), NAFTA was set up so that any outsourcing would be done in Mexico, with a view to stemming illegal immigration to the US by improving living standards in Mexico. But then it all went wrong - because it was realised by the outsourcers that they might avoid the upheaval of moving their companies by insourcing the cheap labour instead, and government turned at best a blind eye to this for the benefit of those companies, who after all make good campaign donors.

E

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RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 4:21:17 AM

SubinMaine

Posts: 1888
Joined: 1/7/2006
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Cost of living in Guerrero, Mexico (where this woman is from):

State City High per Year Low per year Monthly Rent Average
Guerrero Acupulco $5,565.00 $2,087.00 $386.00

The cost of living ranges are set within the costs for a middle to upper class family lifestyle. Included in the costs are: Housing, Food, Education, Transportation, Clothing, Recreation, Health, Furniture and Appliances, and Personal Use. Monthly rent is taken for the average for each city and may vary acording to market situation. Prices are in USD, based on an exchange rate of 11.5 pesos to the dollar.

Siting my source: http://www.solutionsabroad.com/a_costoflivingmexico.asp

Her wage in the US: $360.00 per week x 52 weeks per year: $18,720.00
What she sends home per year: $300.00 per week x 52 weeks per year: $15,600.00

That's almost 3 times the national average needed to "just survive" in a middle to upper class lifestyle in Guerrero, Mexico. So, essentially, this woman is in this country illegally (read that as she's a CRIMINAL). She's working a job to send the money back to a foreign country so that her children can "eat and be clothed"...the money she's making here is being spent in a foreign economy. It's not helping this country's economy in the least.

Meanwhile, back here at home, there are families STRUGGLING to even find a job. Our nation has only recently admitted to our being in a recession (I love that *some people* question this...they think our economy isn't that bad off)...if our government is finally admitting to a recession, you can bet your ass we're closer to a DEPRESSION. Now, this is a job that some hard pressed AMERICAN (naturalized, LEGAL or born-in-the-country American) would probably JUMP at just to be able to feed and clothe their kids and, quite literally, it would BARELY feed and clothe their children.

Gah, it steams me, just friggin' STEAMS me.

< Message edited by SubinMaine -- 1/29/2008 4:22:20 AM >

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RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 6:00:01 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Sorry but I cant work this out.

She's broke in Mexico (I sort of get that bit, though it cant be life and death as there are millions of Mexicans all alive and well) so she seeks out a better life in the US (which I totally understand)

But, if she was broke from where did she get the funds to pay to be smuggled into the US?

The odds are that she came owing the money and now she's paying it off. Or relatives scrapped together the money.

Running illegals while risky is also a very, how to say this, nasty business because some smugglers hold those they bring across in a system of illegal slavery. Sometimes this is more direct than other times for example people are brought to a specific employer who literally holds them captive, always using the fear of the Fed to keep them inline and sometimes even putting bars on what passes as housing.

I'm not saying it's correct to come into a country legally but we need to place the responsibility on the shoulders of everyone involved.

The illegal.
The smuggler.
The employer.

Americans love to bitch and moan about illegals but we also love to bitch and moan about prices. Perhaps we need to be a bit more object and realize that these things go hand in hand.

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(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 11

RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 6:00:07 AM

sambamanslilgirl

Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

But, if she was broke from where did she get the funds to pay to be smuggled into the US?

i'll use my ex as an example to answer your question.

when he "broke" into the US over 20 yrs ago, he borrowed money from family and relatives (plus whatever he could get after selling his business) to pay the smugglers helping him and others to cross the border. he worked as a migrant farmer sending back money to Guanajuato to repay those who helped him plus helping his father "sneak" other family members including his mother. now that's he a resident (no thanks to me), he was able to get his oldest son and wife over the border.

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RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 6:16:41 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

I have to say that yes, her paying off the smugglers is a lot more likely explanation of where the money goes

But thats a problem. Deporting her if she still owes may pose enormous risks to her and her children - I hear organised crime doesnt like it if one doesnt settle one's debts.

So, given she could demonstrate such significant risk to her and her family if she were returned, there then comes an argument to allow her to stay - except that such a decision would only increase the numbers coming. This is our problem in the UK - we do tend to give permission to remain to anyone who can show they face risk if returned.

And when she is returned, what do we think she will do next? If she owes then she's going to have to do something to pay off her debt - drug mule maybe? If she doesnt, then I wouldnt be at all surprised if she came over the fence again.

And there's the real issue for you and for us - border control and preventing illegal working. It isnt the fault of the illegal immigrants they come to the US or the UK - theyre seeking a better life, and we'd do exactly the same. The castigation must be directed at those who make it all too easy for them to do so, both by lax enforcement and encouragement.

The solutions are clear - proper border control, heavy penalties for employers of illegal immigrants (ie far more than they saved on labour costs), and pressure on Mexico to relax its business environment so that there is incentive to get business going there to keep people there.

E

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Post #: 13

RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 6:31:00 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

i have cocluded that todays problems have no solutions- check my list-

iraq, nil
budget, nil
katrina, nil
social security, nil
medicare, nil
medicaid, nil
health care, nil
war on terror, nil
corporate rule, nil
policticians bought and paid for, nil
infastructure,nil
technolgy run amuck, nil
global poluution, nil
imigration, nil

which begs hte quesion, what IS doable? [say permanent tax cuts and get shot....]

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 14

RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 6:54:46 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

I agree with LadyEllen: employers ought to be made accountable for their hiring of workers without work permits.

A question: who will do the jobs these people are prepared to do for $3 an hour? Because I don't see many US citizens willing to pick up Californian tomatoes or what have you for those kinds of wages.

I'm getting a little tired of hearing rants against illegal immigrants when in fact, the people who profit from their labour get away with all sorts of illegalities. If there are workers here with dodgy documentation, it's because there's a market for them.

And another thing: Spanish has been spoken in North America for centuries. It's nothing new, so it's skewed to equate Spanish with illegality. Shit! Texas was part of Mexico, wasn't it, until it was 'annexed' by the US?

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 1/29/2008 7:53:34 AM >

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RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 7:01:45 AM

KenDckey

Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline

OK here is a thought. They are illegal. They broke the law. So what the heck. Lets intern them. Lets put them on work farms (just like many other American prisoners) and let them work for their keep. I think we could take a big chunch of So Cal desert, and let them farm it. Raise crops and cattle. To provide the water for it, we could suck it out of the colorado river just before it enters Mexico (thereforewe wouldn't be taping our resoucres but using it for Mexican citizens. The work farms can be tent cities like Sherrif Joe in Maricopa Co, AZ has using surplus military tentage for everyone to live in. Keep them imprisoned until their term is up and then ship them back to Mexico or wherever they come from.

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Post #: 16

RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 7:04:41 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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What you're describing is slavery. Nice work.

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RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 8:59:44 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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Popeye…I know you don’t care for Obama… and I don’t want to seem like I’m campaigning for him but I do think his solutions will work.

To me putting the army on the border and building walls will be expensive and even then will not stop all illegal immigration.

I agree with you that this has to be stopped and Obama agrees with me on how to do it. If there are no jobs there will be no illegal immigration. To dry up the jobs there must be severe penalties to employers that knowing hire illegal aliens.

I believe that if the penalty is severe enough the jobs will dry up overnight. I would suggest a 20 year minimum without parole.

Obama has not said what penalties he would apply and if they are just a slap on the hand they will be useless… wait and see I guess.

All this said there are real needs for labor in some parts of the country and getting enough legal workers where needed would be a problem. There needs to be a streamlining of the process so we can track and tax these workers and make it more attractive to enter legally.

Butch

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 18

RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 9:23:14 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Popeye…I know you don’t care for Obama… and I don’t want to seem like I’m campaigning for him but I do think his solutions will work.

To me putting the army on the border and building walls will be expensive and even then will not stop all illegal immigration.

I agree with you that this has to be stopped and Obama agrees with me on how to do it. If there are no jobs there will be no illegal immigration. To dry up the jobs there must be severe penalties to employers that knowing hire illegal aliens.

I believe that if the penalty is severe enough the jobs will dry up overnight. I would suggest a 20 year minimum without parole.

Obama has not said what penalties he would apply and if they are just a slap on the hand they will be useless… wait and see I guess.

All this said there are real needs for labor in some parts of the country and getting enough legal workers where needed would be a problem. There needs to be a streamlining of the process so we can track and tax these workers and make it more attractive to enter legally.

Butch

KD, when Obama starts using the word "humane" to describe his "solution" to the illegal alien problem then you know he means some type of amnesty and that's going to cost him the election.
Putting Troops on the border will stop them as well as minefields.
Look at how well (our) minefields work along S. Korea's border.
If a N. Korean makes it accross that border it's big news over there!
And they can put other mines in that will prevent any tunneling.
If a mouse crosses that S. Korean border at o-dark thirty they know about it!
And it's a Federal Felony right now to hire, harbor or shelter an illegal alien.
But, how many business owners are doing time for it?
I just want my country to strictly enforce our immigration laws like they're supposed to be doing.
Since when did it become an "option" for our elected officials to enforce our laws?

_____________________________

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Post #: 19

RE: Here we go again! - 1/29/2008 9:55:25 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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All those mines are expensive...maybe if we can get a version of the Fair tax we could collect money from the illegals to pay for them...now that would be ironic

Like you say there are laws… here they are…

Penalties for Employing Undocumented Workers
With today’s complex immigration and labor laws, an employer with foreign workers must be careful to avoid violating immigration and anti-discrimination laws at all stages of the employer/employee relationship. Issues regarding immigration and anti-discrimination laws can occur during the hiring period, the employment phase, and at termination. For example, if a worker presents a temporary work authorization document from the Immigration Service at the time the worker is hired, the employer must not only make a good faith effort to verify the legitimacy of the document, but also re-verify the employee’s work authorization at the time the initial authorization expires.
There are civil and criminal penalties for hiring illegal aliens. Sec. 274A of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and 8 U.S.C. 1324a, makes it unlawful for any person knowingly to hire, recruit or refer for a fee any alien not authorized to work. An employer that violates these laws can face penalties of:
· $250 to $2,000 fine for each unauthorized individual;
· $2,000 to $5,000 for each employee if the employer has previously been in violation; or
· $3,000 to $10,000 for each individual if the employer was subject to more than one cease and desist order.
The employer could also be fined $100 to $1,000 for each individual “paperwork” violation.
The criminal penalties for a pattern and practice violation can be up to $3,000 for each unauthorized alien, imprisonment up to six months, or both.

Pretty weak popeye…enforcing this law means nothing to big …or little employers.

All it would take is a few employers in jail for twenty years and that would be it for hiring illegals.

Butch

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 20

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