Slave training and brain washing (Full Version)

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Ryugen -> Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 1:29:47 PM)

Hello again, just me here with another question that may ruffle a few feathers. This time round I wont abstract the situation from myself as it does indeed relate to me, my pet, and my thoughts. Me being unexperienced, I guess it was inevitable that we'd end up getting help in slave training from a more experienced Dom. That's fine by me and I'm certainly keen to learn and become "a better Master" as the saying goes. My pet is keen too and the more we talk about it with the experienced Dom the more interested and keen I become. I have talked quite a bit to him, as well as putting him through the ringer so far as his identity goes, so I'm fairly certain he's a good guy.
 
Now, here comes the however; The more I talk to him about slave training, the more I think about it, and the more I look up sources on it, the more it appears to me to be a form of mental moulding. It appears to be behaviour alteration, which I similarly relate to Pavlov's dog, if you're familiar with the experiments. While I realise many an s-type does indeed desire the activities of slave training, the regularitiy, the reminder of their place, and the approval of their Master, the degree of bahvioural training still has me worried.
 
I think at some extremes it is certainly taken to the point of brainwashing by people who are malicious and destructive in nature, and such experiences have been related to us from the media and even some fellow CM members. I realise that what this more experienced Dom, myself, and my pet are planning on doing is not detrimental brain washing, but I do wonder if slave training is perhaps a repression of self expression and personality. I believe that to be able to express yourself is incredibly important and a lack of self expression can lead to frustration and upset. I also think it is important to be who you are and that ties in with self expression.
 
Now, I realise this worry of mine could just be caused by my lack of understanding as to how on earth an s-type could gain such pleasure and satisfaction from serving another (as while I can accept it and know it, I still don't understand it). It still worries me that slave training might be sepressing the s-type's personality and self-expression. Any tales, testimonies, or stories that may reassure me about slave training are very welcome.
 
Although admittedly I was going to post a question relating slave training to brain washing, I do not think it targets the actual issue I'm worried about (the question I was going to ask, that is). While the lifestyle is very new to me, I am keen to explore and am certainly enjoying what I am discovering about the lifestyle, the people in it, and indeed myself as well. Growing up in a house with 2 very dominant parents was indeed frustrating for me and I do realise that feeling like I do not have things in my life under my own control is something that upsets and frustrates me. Therefore it doesn't really worry me that my own behaviour might be dictated by my involvement with the training of my pet. Although just because we consent to something doesn't mean we know what we're getting ourselves into, ey? Admittedly, if I feel uncomfortable with any of the training both in myself and for my pet, I will certainly speak my mind. If I feel at any time that perhaps it is wrong and perhaps bdsm is not for me (which I very much doubt ever occuring as I have some rather keen fantasies), then I shall say so during the course of the training.
 
I guess that leaves me with what I was after from the other members of CM in the way of replies. It'd be great if I could get responses from the s-types as to why you submit, how it makes you feel, and what you get out of it. Also from everyone it'd be great to get some reassurance that slave training does not inhibit an s-types ability to express themselves and be who they are.
 
Thanks for reading the whole thing,
Regards,
Ryugen.



xxblushesxx -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 1:33:40 PM)

Hmmm....read my profile and my forum postings...

Then again, I AM a very naughty slave.[:-][:o]

~Christina



daddysliloneds -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 1:45:02 PM)

if you read my profile and my forum postings, you'll find that i'm a very expressive person, and i certainly don't fall for the typical  master/dominants load of crap regarding slave training...

i bottom when i want to have fun, when i want it to be all about me; i submit when i want to feel whole, with a purpose other than it being all about me.

that's about as simple of terms as i can put it without writing a book; ha, ha, ha.



thetammyjo -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 1:59:59 PM)

Brainwashing takes far more time than I personally have had or will have to train a slave.

Slave training is really just explaining how things would work in your household and building on the qualities that the submissive all ready has. I think it's a terrible idea to try to train someone who lacks the basics skills and abilities that I want. You use positive feedback usually to train.

Brainwashing is completely breaking down and rebuilding someone's personality and will. Not only does it take a lot of time to do but it takes a lot of time to maintain because the original will and personality will always be there under the surface. You brainwash someone you are basically creating a harsh responsibility for yourself forever because you need to constantly re-enforce things through a system of non-consistency so that the target is never on stable ground and can not regain their will or personality.

Not only does that seem like a lot of very negative work to me, it does not sound terribly erotic. I mean, basically you can never fully trust the person you have brainwashed and you can never relax or you use substitutes to control them. Such a high level of negativity does not appeal to me.

I own Fox to help me life be more relaxing, more fun, and more fulfilling. Brainwashing does not fulfill any of those criteria.



charlotte12 -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 2:06:40 PM)

I am not Gorean but i have this quote at the beginning of my profile because i had many of the same questions you have now when i first started exploring submission, let alone slavery.

"It was as though, in asking for chains of iron, I had cast off thousands of invisible chains, which had held me from myself. Chains of iron I thought might hold me to my own truths, not permitting me to strive for what, in the heart of me, I did not wish, for what I was not." Slave Girl of Gor

Since first meeting Master i have found myself coming closer to who i really am. There were parts of myself that i didn't understand and neither did anyone i knew and so being rather easily influenced i allowed myself to believe they were wrong. I worked on becoming the person i thought i should be. After just a few conversations with Master on the phone i had already admitted stuff about myself that no one previously had understood and found acceptance for these things. Things big and small, from always having wanted to pierce my navel (all my friends told me it was slutty,) imagining getting a tattoo someday (my family and friends always talked about how gross they were,) to believing it's ok for my partner to want to flirt with other girls (people would tell me i should be jealous,) and finding myself checking girls out too (all my girlfriends would go on and on about how hot this or that actor was...i always looked at the pictures of the actresses...but that's another story.) [;)]

I also value many of the qualities i consider necessary to be a slave to an extreme degree in my life. Humility, patience, beauty. I love sharing with others, i always try to see things from the other persons perspective, i will literally be unhappy if we go to a restaurant or movie of my choosing if it's not the other person's first choice too, hence i enjoy myself more if others make those choices. I used to think this made me weak, or as you fear, unable to express myself. Ever since diving deeper into submission and being collared as a slave who imposes no limits on her Master i have found myself becoming a more confident and self-expressive person in my life. (except of course being able to articulate myself in writing. Please forgive my attempt at explaining my thoughts...)

So, that quote means something very personal for me. I thrive in structure and rules and since being given the opportunity to live with rules i have stopped trying to impose them on myself. I am free to express exactly who i am because it is no longer up to me whether that girl is acceptable, it is up to Master to decide that. [:)]

Ok, i'm getting all, bubbly. I hope i made at least a little bit of sense. Not everyone will feel the same way as me but if a girl truly desires slavery such as this it is in fact limiting her expression to deny it. It is up to her to decide if it's what she wants and up to you to trust that she is self-aware enough to make that decision.

charlotte



CreativeDominant -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 2:12:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

Hmmm....read my profile and my forum postings...

Then again, I AM a very naughty slave.[:-][:o]

~Christina


Agrees...because I am so agreeable...[;)]



Ryugen -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 2:22:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlotte12

I am not Gorean but i have this quote at the beginning of my profile because i had many of the same questions you have now when i first started exploring submission, let alone slavery.

"It was as though, in asking for chains of iron, I had cast off thousands of invisible chains, which had held me from myself. Chains of iron I thought might hold me to my own truths, not permitting me to strive for what, in the heart of me, I did not wish, for what I was not." Slave Girl of Gor

Since first meeting Master i have found myself coming closer to who i really am. There were parts of myself that i didn't understand and neither did anyone i knew and so being rather easily influenced i allowed myself to believe they were wrong. I worked on becoming the person i thought i should be. After just a few conversations with Master on the phone i had already admitted stuff about myself that no one previously had understood and found acceptance for these things. Things big and small, from always having wanted to pierce my navel (all my friends told me it was slutty,) imagining getting a tattoo someday (my family and friends always talked about how gross they were,) to believing it's ok for my partner to want to flirt with other girls (people would tell me i should be jealous,) and finding myself checking girls out too (all my girlfriends would go on and on about how hot this or that actor was...i always looked at the pictures of the actresses...but that's another story.) [;)]

I also value many of the qualities i consider necessary to be a slave to an extreme degree in my life. Humility, patience, beauty. I love sharing with others, i always try to see things from the other persons perspective, i will literally be unhappy if we go to a restaurant or movie of my choosing if it's not the other person's first choice too, hence i enjoy myself more if others make those choices. I used to think this made me weak, or as you fear, unable to express myself. Ever since diving deeper into submission and being collared as a slave who imposes no limits on her Master i have found myself becoming a more confident and self-expressive person in my life. (except of course being able to articulate myself in writing. Please forgive my attempt at explaining my thoughts...)

So, that quote means something very personal for me. I thrive in structure and rules and since being given the opportunity to live with rules i have stopped trying to impose them on myself. I am free to express exactly who i am because it is no longer up to me whether that girl is acceptable, it is up to Master to decide that. [:)]

Ok, i'm getting all, bubbly. I hope i made at least a little bit of sense. Not everyone will feel the same way as me but if a girl truly desires slavery such as this it is in fact limiting her expression to deny it. It is up to her to decide if it's what she wants and up to you to trust that she is self-aware enough to make that decision.

charlotte

Thanks very much for the story, I must admit that the idea that such submission and the behavioural teachings of slave training being a form of self expression for an s-type had crossed my mind, but I had labeled it as absurd because I would never feel that way. Heh, proves I need to not dismiss my own ideas no matter how much I feel that they are absurd. Your reply helped my understanding a lot and I thank you for it. I am certainly more comfortable knowing that there are people out there who feel the way you do and will certainly explore such things discussed in this thread with my pet.
 
Thanks to the others who replied as well, it is certainly insightful for me (although I can't say that for those who merely said look at my profile and posts [&:]). Also to thetammyjo, you have a good argument about brainwashing, thank you.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 2:26:43 PM)

Training is not brainwashing, unless you institute the steps needed to achieve a brainwashed state.

A well-behaved slave or submissive who follows the rules of the dominant's household and screws up rarely is not necessarily brainwashed.  They are a submissive/slave who may have gone through years of getting to that point or who may have been able to pick it up quickly.  They are someone who has found a D/s or M/s dynamic that works for them and so, they complied...whether it took minutes, days, weeks, months or years. 



daddyncherry -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 2:35:31 PM)

As usual, charlotte and i are on the same page...i swear you and i were seperated somewhere along the lines.[:)] ((((((HUGS))))))

Okay, enough lovin' on charlotte[:)]

So as far as the OP....

Like charlotte, there were alot of parts of me that i didn't allow the world at large to see prior to meeting my Master/Daddy...but as usual, i am on the other side of the coin from her...The parts i tried to hide the most were the soft and tender parts of me....the super girly girl parts...the vulnerable parts. Much like a goth/emo kid, i hid behind a self imposed disguise of darkness....scared to death that someone would see the real me.


i was the pierced,tattooed, slutty, overtly bi girl that charlotte was keeping hidden beneath her soft, sweet exterior.

What i found with my Daddy is that i can happily be both....in essecne, the sweet,shy, vulnerable slutty girly girl.

So now, although i may have issues expressing myself to him on alot of levels (and maybe if i could do it better it would mess with our dynamic)...i can express myself with others much differently....

The way i feel when i submit...and when i finally reach a spot in the forrest that makes me surrender further (even though i thought i'd reached the back of the forrest)...i feel happy, like i am walking on clouds....complete....and like i am being exactly who i was destined to be....Just because it is my destiny, doesn't mean that the journey is always an easy one to travel....i have to remember that it is a journey and not a destination...cliche i know, but so true.

i was born to be who i am....with my predetermined personality....i experienced certain things and reacted to them in certain ways because of who i am at my core....and the things i have done, good and bad make me who i am...had i not gone through all that i have, i would not be able to be who i am now....or who i will become.

Is there brainwashing? Maybe, if you want to call it that...conditioning....absolutely...but life is full of that stuff anyway....whether you are in an M/s dynamic or not.....Colleges, and businesses brainwash people everyday....parents brainwash their off spring all the time...to help them become....whatever they will become.

okay i'm done thinking...my head hurts right now



MadRabbit -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 2:36:39 PM)

Well, my first thought reading this is that people (including myself when I was new) make the stretch between brain washing and behavior modification. The techinques dominant employ to create new behaviors isn't even close to the negative images of total mind control that the phrase "brain washing" conjurs, no more than getting a spanking for sticking your hand in the cookie jar when you were a child was "brain washing".

It's really just doing things to encourage your slave/submissive to do the things that you want. However, if they really really don't want to do them, there isn't a whole lot you can do about it unless your willing to turn that "behavior modifcation" into abuse.

I would suggest reading Skinner and articles on Operant Coniditioning to get a basic theory and sense of logic (at least on a simple level) of why you might or might not do certain things. People on the Internet tend to make this stuff out to be a lot more complicated than it really is and while I am certain some people need complicated stuff for their list of 400 protocols and 33,000 rules of submission, it's really not all that complicated in a practicle sense, even if somewhat hard to keep at and do.

The second thought that comes to mind is that you should spent less time asking about other slave's and submissives and more timing asking your slave/submissive.

The idea that there is one magical way to train someone is completely false. People react differently to different stimuli and therefore how you encourage or discourage a behavior comes down to the individual and the behavior itself.

At best, you MIGHT get some insight into why your slave/submissive might do things or how they feal, but it still comes down to chance as to whether or not any of this will apply.



FRSguy -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 2:50:11 PM)

I am not a submissive but here is my fraction of copper for ya.
From my observations and conversations with both my girl and others I think that submissiveness is in many ways a form of expression or creates self expression. As far as brain washing you don’t have to be into BDSM to do that and although I have heard about a lot of abusive situation in and out of BDSM I think its fairly safe to say that most Dominants try to avoid actually being abusive or changing someone in a way that the person being changed doesn’t want.  Some subs do have problems that need to be solved and a D/S relationship does allow for corrective methods that go way beyond the average counselor (accept in Australia where they can use BDSM as a form of therapy).

One of the reasons that may exist for submissive personalities is that tests show that about 1 in 5 people cross when it comes to stress in sex.  In other words when a person is in a stressful situation there bodies act as though they are sexually stimulated even though mentally there minds are on something completely non sexual. Kind of like if a woman took a speech class and was nervous about getting up in front of a group of people and gets up to do it does an incredible job at it and are completely soaked between the legs for no apparent reason. Someone like that can switch from stress to sex in a heartbeat where as someone not wired in this manner cant… to them when they are stressed the body does just the opposite and shuts down sexually in order to deal with the stressful event. So you could say that about 1 in 5 people will get revved up from a spanking and the rest of the population would just get pissed off.

I am not sure if the Masters & Johnson institute have drawn conclusions to there tests or have even officially released the research results publicly but it does have extreme significant as to why sexual behavior is what it is and why there are sexual separations within our society and why one group of people cant comprehend the other group so to speak and I have tried to contact the person conducting this research without much success.



Suleiman -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 2:51:16 PM)

Interesting tangent for the whole hypothetical brain-washing scenario. This should get some interesting arguments getting set off... let's see if I can kindle a fire or two (probably not - I'm feeling terribly reasonable this afternoon)

First of all, let me simply point out to you that human beings are not dogs. Behavioral modification only goes so far with us, and we can break free without too much effort, if the modification goes too far from our true nature. That being said, yes, slave training in its more extreme forms does in fact incorporate various forms of simple mind control. So does any form of intense indoctrination, from old style fraternity hazings to modern military indoctrination. Slave training can go farther than those examples typically will. A certain amount of what we consider to be fun and games could be considered a crime against humanity if performed against an unwilling prisoner. Speaking of which, consider picking up the loompanics reprint of the CIA manual on physical interrogation techniques - there's a whole section on improvised toys, and another section on what to do if you can't leave any visible marks - just replace "Amnesty International" with "Inlaws" and you've got a standard no-marks scenario. It's a short book but very useful, if taken with a grain of salt. But I digress...

Here's the thing about submissives - a sub will serve. It's intrinsic to the sub's personality. Most prefer to serve the one they love/adore/trust/honor above all others, and want the limits of that service to get pushed beyond the boundaries of a "normal" relationship. Most submissive types never discover B/D type activities, and lead lives filled with an aching desire to prove how much they love somebody. Not everybody who bottoms in scene is a hard-core submissive, of course, but that's a topic for a twuist thread. I try to speak in broad generalities (Everyone here knows that anyone who talks about "twue" submittives isn't a real-life kinkster. I gotta keep up my street cred).

Part of what makes the idea of "training" exciting is the chance to "prove" how commited the sub is. It feeds into the desire to submit, and it feeds into the desire for their master's attention. This is not a bad thing. This is playtime. The Pavlovian conditioning here is no stronger than the Pavlovian condition you effectively brainwash your lover with when they do something special for you - say, making breakfast in bed or scoring tickets to a show you want to see - and you reward them with smiles, cuddles, and possible nookie (Yes, I said nookie. Get over it), or the classic negative reinforcement of making your spouse sleep on the couch when they've ticked you off. Some people really delight in this level of feedback, others get terribly confused when it works anyway, but it takes a far greater level of abuse before such techniques really begin to destroy a person's ability at self-expression.

Also, keep in mind that in this context, it should be argued that submission itself is a form of self-expression.

Now, you CAN go too far with this stuff, but from the fact that it worries you, I doubt that will happen. So moulding, yes, but actual brain-washing? That takes a quantum leap in effort and overall sleaze. I don't think you'll cross that line.



amayos -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 2:56:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryugen
I realise that what this more experienced Dom, myself, and my pet are planning on doing is not detrimental brain washing, but I do wonder if slave training is perhaps a repression of self expression and personality.


Conditioning, not brain washing.



charlotte12 -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 2:59:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit



The second thought that comes to mind is that you should spent less time asking about other slave's and submissives and more timing asking your slave/submissive.




As a side note to this i would also suggest spending less time listening to an "Experienced Dom" and more time asking yourself what it is you would like to focus on in your training of your pet. I am all for getting experience people to teach you how to do something like fireplay for example, or learning how to flog someone without injuring them (too horribly [;)] ,) but be careful that you don't let someone else's definiton of what a Master/slave dynamic is affect how you and your pet see it. One can learn how to use certain toys etc. but i would be hesitant of anyone who claims they can teach you how to be a Master. That has to do with what it means personally to you. Not to say that having a mentor or someone with a lot of experience to talk with isn't helpful. I just don't buy into the notion of "slave training" in the abstract. Only you can train your pet to be the pet you want to own.

Good  luck with everything.

charlotte

PS. Cherry....are you sure you're not my long lost sister? [:)]



SimplyMichael -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 3:05:27 PM)

quote:

Growing up in a house with 2 very dominant parents was indeed frustrating for me


I don't think you yet grasp the difference between being domineering (unhealthy) and "dominant" (meaning healthy control)

quote:

I do realise that feeling like I do not have things in my life under my own control is something that upsets and frustrates me.


While I am not of the "dominants should be perfect" school of thought, it is often a problem where people can't put their life in order so they micromanage someone else (showing them what they are doing wrong) in order to feel better about how poorly they manage their own life.  This is classic domineering and can be emotionally abusive.

quote:

 Therefore it doesn't really worry me that my own behaviour might be dictated by my involvement with the training of my pet.


Something about that sets off warning bells but I really have no idea what exactly you are saying.

quote:

  Although just because we consent to something doesn't mean we know what we're getting ourselves into, ey?


If you don't know what you are getting into, then you can't actually consent, look up the concept of "informed consent"...

Personally, I think  you need to step back and take a long hard look in the mirror and train yourself first.



DesFIP -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 5:07:32 PM)

The Man doesn't believe in it. He wants me to follow him because I want to, not because I'm unable to do otherwise. If that were the case, if some brainwashing had occurred that eliminated my ability to choose, to give consent, then he probably wouldn't feel as though he could play with me.

I don't like the idea of asking someone else to train her because he can't train her to your needs, only to his own.

Oh, and just because someone doesn't get off on this slave training doesn't mean you can't be into BDSM. It does mean that the person who told you this is someone who is narrow minded, who thinks his way is the only way.

Teach her what you want her to learn. Take your time doing it, and both of you will have many wondrous experiences along the way.



angelslave77 -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 5:29:24 PM)

Ryugen, charlotte made the suggestion about spending less time with the "experienced Dom" and I couldnt agree more and here is why. Yes you are young and I assume your partner is also from how you speak and my view is explore and find your dynamic together. And call on another only if you are attempting an activity that you are unsure about and could cause serious harm if you get it wrong or for the odd bits of advice here and there, and then I would say dont just rely on one person and further to that dont just look to Doms, there area lot of very very wise *s* types around to.

I speak from my personal experience here Sir and I are relatively young (I am 30 he is 26 so granted not as young as you) and we are fairly new D/s, we have known about it, been around it for a while never really lived it though. So what I suggested above is what we do. It works for us but having said that I fully acknowledge that every one is different and different things work for different people.



MadRabbit -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 5:34:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlotte12

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit



The second thought that comes to mind is that you should spent less time asking about other slave's and submissives and more timing asking your slave/submissive.




As a side note to this i would also suggest spending less time listening to an "Experienced Dom" and more time asking yourself what it is you would like to focus on in your training of your pet. I am all for getting experience people to teach you how to do something like fireplay for example, or learning how to flog someone without injuring them (too horribly [;)] ,) but be careful that you don't let someone else's definiton of what a Master/slave dynamic is affect how you and your pet see it. One can learn how to use certain toys etc. but i would be hesitant of anyone who claims they can teach you how to be a Master. That has to do with what it means personally to you. Not to say that having a mentor or someone with a lot of experience to talk with isn't helpful. I just don't buy into the notion of "slave training" in the abstract. Only you can train your pet to be the pet you want to own.

Good  luck with everything.

charlotte

PS. Cherry....are you sure you're not my long lost sister? [:)]



I don't want this to seem like a rebuttal, because you do make a lot of good points as far as what to avoid. However, in my first power based relationship, I had a much older and experienced man I had befriended who I called frequently. He did me the wonderful favor of knocking down my lofty expectations and putting things in perspective. The experience was probably the most beneficial for me, because in that period of time I quickly crossed over the gap between fantasy and Internet theory to pragmatic reality.

Of course, I picked someone who actually knew what the hell he was talking about which can't be said for a lot of the bags of hot air passing themselves off as Mentors.



MistressVnus -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 6:32:20 PM)

Very observant and well stated, Michael.
To Master another you must Master yourself, first.
And this does not mean you should be puuuuurrrfect.  However, you should have psychoanalyzed yourself enough to understand how a subliminal message can be internalized, and is so powerful,  that it affects you the rest of your life.
Yes, folks.  Hate to say it.  But there IS conditioning, brain-washing, or whatever you want to call it...in EVERY relationship.
Ever hear the expression, he who loves least, controls the relationship?  Or, knowledge is power?
The point with slave training (not to be confused with BDSM in general), is to "enmesh" the person to you.
It can be, and IS, done.
It is done to you from childhood, often (not always), in such an unhealthy way , that you don't even realize how it has affected you until adulthood.  And any dysfunctional programming will come out in a "relationship", or, inability to maintain one.  It will come out in addicitons, co-dependency (a huge part of submission, BTW. That should stir some shit.), over- eating, under-eating, self-mutalation, disrespect for authority, and many, many, other ways.
The point of this lifestyle is to "uncondition" or "debrief" all those unhealthy, internalized messages, and reprogram them.
And, sometimes, not to reprogram at all.  But to take the survival skills someone has developed over the years and turn them from self-destructive to constructive.  Skills are skills.  And all skills are good, it's the application of them that is often questionable.
What most don't understand, when delving into this psychological realm of "slave training" is that in this lifestyle it is "supposed" to be done "responsibly", with "purpose", and with "respect."
It is the MASTER'S/MISTRESS' responsibility to understand EXACTLY what they are doing.  And, if they choose to "enmesh" someone to them, they take the responsibility of meeting that person's needs, emotionally, physically, spiritually, menatally.
In fact, this "enmeshment" can get so deep, that "back in the days" a Master/Mistress would insure themselves so that if they were to suddenly die, their slave would have the financial means, as beneficiary, to have the time necessary to "re-socialize" themselves.  Think about THAT and the responsible nature of it all.
And, don't fool yourself for a second.  The Master/Mistress becomes just as "enmeshed."  That IS the beauty of it all.
It may look cold, calculated, to outsiders.  But, if you "really" knew, you would understand that it is a special dance between two people that is so deep, it goes beyond the "physical" bounds of vanilla relationships (or even the general BDSM population)  into a metaphysical journey that is beyond description, sex, touch.  It is an "enmeshing of souls".  An astounding, spiritual journey.
To go any deeper would take a book, and a lifetime to write it. 
But, if you are going to delve into this aspect of "slave" training, I suggest, wholeheartedly, that you DO FIND A MENTOR, who is reputable, responsible, and experienced in "these" ways. 
To take the suggestions of some here no to do so, if you really want to do this, is IRRESPONSIBLE.
A good mentor will help you learn about yourself, FIRST.
And, those introspects, alone, will be what enable you to see how what you do affects another.





daddyncherry -> RE: Slave training and brain washing (1/17/2008 6:36:47 PM)

Wow MistressVnus, what a wonderful post...i think i just might copy this and save it, really well stated.

Thank you[:)]



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