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RE: Britain, France Argue Which Is Closest U.S. Ally - 1/6/2008 6:01:23 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Tell me ... what happened to the "Bush has caused the US to lose all it's international friends" meme that was being thrown around a couple of years ago?

Firm


Most ordinary Europeans, be they British, French or Germans or whatever, don't give a toss for the US, however, their relative establishments do, out of no other reason than economic expedience. They like you for your money and power not for who you are.

I have to admit though, that Britain does seem to have a fetish about the US. If you watch British TV and particularly the news, you would think Britain was the 51st state of America. In France and Germany you would get the impression that the US is just another country and pay no more attention to it than any other country.

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RE: Britain, France Argue Which Is Closest U.S. Ally - 1/6/2008 6:13:26 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

That kind of fighting is what ultimately lead to the founding of the United States. Because when the colonists began to revolt, who pledged support to the colonists? The French and Germans. Why? Because they wanted to hurt Britain.


Churchill called the war between the British, French and Spanish Empires as the first world war. Britain won it, the French retired hurt and the Spanish Empire was all but destroyed. There was no Germany at this time cyberdude.


The American war of independence was just a small side show in this war, it now has significance because the US went on to be a superpower. The reason for the colonist's revolt are many but oppression was not one of them. Every colony had its own assembly that was not interfered with by the British governors. However, the British wanted to keep the land hungry colonists east of the Proclaimation line and prevent them fromn stealing indian land. This trying to prevent the colonists encroachment on Indian land was one of the main reasons for the conflict. They also wanted the colonists to pay for the privelege of this policy, Britain naively thinking it was the best way to keep the peace between the colonists and Indians. Tax was never an issue other than as a propaganda tool as 99% of Americans never paid tax, there was just duties on the import of products. The Boston tea party was not a revolt against high taxes, it was mainly smugglers being angry at being undercut by legal tea import when Britain dropped import tax. Britain had a huge trading debt to the colony and defending the colonies almost bankrupted it. This was the reason Britain wanted to introduce stamp duty, the British thought the colonists should pay something towards their own defence. Losing the colonies was good for Britain because the colonies were a huge economic drain on the British economy.

The main reason why Britain lost the skirmish in the colonies was probably for the same reason the US lost in Vietnam, they had no strategy, very little support at home and totally clueless as to what they would do with the place should they have won.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/6/2008 6:30:26 AM >

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RE: Britain, France Argue Which Is Closest U.S. Ally - 1/6/2008 6:25:00 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

That kind of fighting is what ultimately lead to the founding of the United States. Because when the colonists began to revolt, who pledged support to the colonists? The French and Germans. Why? Because they wanted to hurt Britain.



Cutting a long story short, at University we undertook a module in revolution, which included France, Russia, the United States and England; my understanding is the US was founded by people completely disillusioned with absolutism and intolerance, i.e. 'nothing to do with statesmanship.


There was no absolutism in the colonies, they were the most free and democratic places on earth under the British. In fact the average colonist was less free under the new US regime than they were under the British. The Empire Loyalists that fled the US government inspired pograms after the British defeat found more freedom in Canada than they had in the colonies. The indians and blacks who chose the wrong side suffered terribly under the new regime so much for freedom. Not forgetting if the British had won in the colonies, blacks would have had their freedom far far sooner than they did under the new regime. The agitation for the revolution, like always, were people with a political agenda and a wish to establish their power in the colonies. If you look into the background of the founding fathers you won't find ordinary citizens but people with an economic and political power base already.

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RE: Britain, France Argue Which Is Closest U.S. Ally - 1/6/2008 7:35:49 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Cyberdude. just how did Russia, with no navy, help defeat the Spanish Armada ?  A source would be good. The only links between the Uk and Russia at that time were for trade.

You are partly correct about the support from Europe for the American revoloution. This was almost totally done by France though, both with finance and military aid. At that time germany was just a collection of small states and didnt have any kind of navy.

As for the question about who is Americas closest friend now. I dont see the French in Afghanistan or Iraq as yet.


Well "alliance" was a bad choice of words. But Ivan and Elizabeth were friends and made trade deals (including shipbuilding supplies) that made it easier for the British to build a strong enough navy to defeat Spain's. The relationship between the two leaders established a diplomatic relationship between the two countries that lasted until the end of the 18th century.
There are many letters sent from Elizabeth to Ivan sitting in a museum in Moscow today.


"made trade deals (including shipbuilding supplies) that made it easier for the British to build a strong enough navy to defeat Spain's"

That`s a bit of a stretch.

Any proof or source,that Russia helped the English "build a strong enough navy"?

General question:

Didn`t the weather(a huge storm) ,take out(sink) most if the Armada?

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RE: Britain, France Argue Which Is Closest U.S. Ally - 1/6/2008 10:56:29 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Owner, Trading with Russia did help, in as much that Russia and England did a lot of trade. Fur Hemp Tar and Timber were among things brought to England, mainly in exchange for wool.

The Armada itself caught the English ships in Plymouth, being resupplied. There was some skirmishing up the channel then the Spanish, before the Spanish anchored of Calais for the night. The English used fire ships to force the Spanish to up anchor and flee north into more open seas. As they rounded the Irish coast they were struck by storms and many transport ship were lost. The mean victory wasnt in defeating the navy but stopping the invasion, and just as importantly being the first in Europe to show Spanish forces were not invincible.

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RE: Britain, France Argue Which Is Closest U.S. Ally - 1/6/2008 11:14:53 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		What does being America’s closest ally get anyone anyway?

Trades agreements go through the EU anyway.
The US doesn’t listen to anyone harping on about this global treaty or that one.

So the real question is: who cares?

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RE: Britain, France Argue Which Is Closest U.S. Ally - 1/6/2008 11:44:59 AM   
LadyKarin


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Status: offline 		divide et impera! (Devide and rule)

This is not at all modern.

The Romans 2000 yrs ago practiced that.

The USA divide the EU-countries into the "old" and "new"  Europe.

This is - of course - legitimate from their point of view. And if these European governments are childish enough to allow their ally to do this and get away with it - ok, they seem to be stupid.

This was one of the very few positive things, former German Chancellor Schroeder did well. If you Americans want to be butchered in Irak - ok, go. But we will not. We have no business to do in Irak. Let them treat their own problems.

The Americans should accept, that Germany (and France and England) has a very close relation to the Arab countries (and culture) - and should make use of it rather than tell lies in the UN. The EU-countries - rather the peoples - feel very positive and grateful with the Americans - they in turn should make use of these real friends.

Lady Karin

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Britain, France Argue Which Is Closest U.S. Ally - 1/6/2008 12:20:27 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyKarin

The Americans should accept, that Germany (and France and England) has a very close relation to the Arab countries (and culture) - and should make use of it rather than tell lies in the UN. The EU-countries - rather the peoples - feel very positive and grateful with the Americans - they in turn should make use of these real friends.

Lady Karin



Feel free to keep us out of this, Karin.....close relations with, and grateful to, no one.

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RE: Britain, France Argue Which Is Closest U.S. Ally - 1/6/2008 12:49:48 PM   
xAdamx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Crikey - the French of all people getting us off the hook............

E


lmao...l love that word....Crikey.......

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