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Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 8:10:08 PM   
Honsoku


Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline 		Whenever someone mentions being mentally leveraged into doing something unhealthy on the boards, there is a chorus about how this person is being manipulated and how the dom/me is thusly bad. Sure, the dom/me may be bad, but is it really because they are manipulative? Is there really a core difference between domination and manipulation? (before arguing "domination is consensual", check here)

Now it is true that "manipulating" has a very strong negative context, though to the most of the world, so does domination. Manipulating just means to use/control something or control/guide a situation. Hmm, this definition sounds familiar. The only real difference is that manipulation implies subtlety and skill and that domination implies overwhelming force (another implication of manipulation is to use/control for one's own benefit, but isn't that what most people here want anyway?). If the line is drawn at subtlety and/or skill, obedience training and seduction (for example) become "bad" as they both require some degree of skill and/or subtlety. Would you really want a dom/me that wasn't subtle or skillful at least some of the time?

This contextual split in definition, to me, strikes as being a case of unintentional intellectual dishonesty. It appears to be rooted in a reluctance to treat domination as something that can be either healthy or unhealthy depending on how it is used.

Thoughts?

Honsoku (the benevolent manipulative scheming bastard)
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 8:22:01 PM   
BondageSlaveMN


Posts: 80
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

Whenever someone mentions being mentally leveraged into doing something unhealthy on the boards, there is a chorus about how this person is being manipulated and how the dom/me is thusly bad. Sure, the dom/me may be bad, but is it really because they are manipulative? Is there really a core difference between domination and manipulation? (before arguing "domination is consensual", check here)

Now it is true that "manipulating" has a very strong negative context, though to the most of the world, so does domination. Manipulating just means to use/control something or control/guide a situation. Hmm, this definition sounds familiar. The only real difference is that manipulation implies subtlety and skill and that domination implies overwhelming force (another implication of manipulation is to use/control for one's own benefit, but isn't that what most people here want anyway?). If the line is drawn at subtlety and/or skill, obedience training and seduction (for example) become "bad" as they both require some degree of skill and/or subtlety. Would you really want a dom/me that wasn't subtle or skillful at least some of the time?

This contextual split in definition, to me, strikes as being a case of unintentional intellectual dishonesty. It appears to be rooted in a reluctance to treat domination as something that can be either healthy or unhealthy depending on how it is used.

Thoughts?

Honsoku (the benevolent manipulative scheming bastard)


Let's not kid ourselves, any mechanism of control (as both domination and manipulation are) can be used for both good or bad. In the kinds of relationships I feel are healthy, domination is in fact consentual. There is always a safeword; there is always a way out if things get too intense.

Many people will argue on either side of manipulation as being irresponsible or not. Hypnotism, for example, is manipulative in nature. I think if most people were honest with themselves, they would see that there is a degree of manipulation in each and every one of their d/s relationships. Manipulation, like domination, becomes wrong when it becomes non-consentual.

As an interesting side note, would it be ethical to manipulate someone to the point where their onw paradigm shifts? For example, imagine a sub/slave that has fire play as a hard limit. Now imagine the dom manipulating the slave until that limit was no longer there. Is this ethical?

I feel that the OP said it best in his previous post. It is unethical and abusive if the sub/slave is not longer receiving benefit from the relationship. But this kind of logic leads us down a slippery slope does it not? Fire play today, self-mutilation tomorrow, what the next day?

(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 8:29:36 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Manipulation can often be positive.  I can manipulate your muscles to make them more relaxed.

I can manipulate your feelings by pulling out your favorite type of food for dinner, putting on your favorite tv show and generally doing everything I can to manipulate your environment to make it most likely for you to be put into a good mood.

I can manipulate your perspective on something with a change of my tone and words to put focus on something specific. 

These are generally all good things- and like everything, it has nothing to do with Ds.  It's not the action, it's the motivation.

Manipulation is bad when a) not everyone is aware there is manipulation going on b) manipulation is taking place knowingly that the other partner would not approve

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to BondageSlaveMN)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 8:32:15 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		As LA pointed out, we often consentually engage in and even encourage manipulation.  Someone that knows us well can successfully manipulate our mood, desires, etc.

When manipulation takes the form of dishonesty it's not consentual or welcome in my relationships.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 8:36:56 PM   
Peridot


Posts: 78
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Manipulation can often be positive.  I can manipulate your muscles to make them more relaxed.

I can manipulate your feelings by pulling out your favorite type of food for dinner, putting on your favorite tv show and generally doing everything I can to manipulate your environment to make it most likely for you to be put into a good mood.

I can manipulate your perspective on something with a change of my tone and words to put focus on something specific. 

These are generally all good things- and like everything, it has nothing to do with Ds.  It's not the action, it's the motivation.

Manipulation is bad when a) not everyone is aware there is manipulation going on b) manipulation is taking place knowingly that the other partner would not approve


Thank you! The post above deserves the bandwidth of more than a full quote.
Your perspective is fabulous. Thank you again.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 8:38:02 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		One person's Domination is another person's Manipulation.
One person's kink is another person's nightmare.
One person wants to be a slave with no rights, another person wants
to be a submissive with a lot of limits.
 
You say tomato, I say tomahto.
 
Domination by one party could lead to your demise.
Manipulation could lead to you making bad choices.
Who can say one is worse than the other?
The fact that you accidently did not mean to hurt or injure me makes it better
because you were NOT manipulating me?
lol?
oops?
The end result is what counts, whether you are being dominated or manipulated. 

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/18/2007 8:39:23 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 8:55:15 PM   
Honsoku


Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BondageSlaveMN

Let's not kid ourselves, any mechanism of control (as both domination and manipulation are) can be used for both good or bad. In the kinds of relationships I feel are healthy, domination is in fact consentual. There is always a safeword; there is always a way out if things get too intense.



D/s relationships frequently have a strong underlying current of non-consent involved. Many people will be more than glad to talk about how their relationship doesn't have a safe word, how there isn't always a way to get out. In this case, right or wrong can not be decided based on consent. The very act of domination implies a lack of consent to some degree.

quote:

ORiGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
These are generally all good things- and like everything, it has nothing to do with Ds. It's not the action, it's the motivation.

Manipulation is bad when a) not everyone is aware there is manipulation going on b) manipulation is taking place knowingly that the other partner would not approve


How are the motivations determined to be different by changing the word? Why is it domination when it is good, but becomes manipulation when bad?

Can (non-physical) manipulation really take place with everyone involved being aware? The very act of being aware of the manipulation, undermines it. I agree with "b)" to a large extent, though I think that there could be circumstances where I wouldn't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Laurell3
When manipulation takes the form of dishonesty it's not consentual or welcome in my relationships.


A mind fuck is inherently dishonest manipulation, are those not welcome? What about setting up a surprise party?

Honsoku

(in reply to BondageSlaveMN)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 8:58:38 PM   
DollMaster72


Posts: 56
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline

Manipulation is bad when a) not everyone is aware there is manipulation going on b) manipulation is taking place knowingly that the other partner would not approve
[/quote]




I think LuckyAlbatross makes a very good point here.  I am using both the carrot and the stick to help motivate my sub to do something that we have discussed, and that she wants to do.  I am still using her emotions, and manipulating her by giving her things she likes when she makes positive descisions and limiting her when she makes poor ones.   She has consented to the process though not necessarily to the manipulation that will help her get to where she wants to be.  I see classical conditioning as manipulation, dicipline is manipulation, even coaching is manipulation.  I wish I could remember which NFL coach this came from, my partner likes to quote it.  Coaching is getting men to do what they don't want to do so they can  achieve what they want to achieve. 

Great thread.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 8:58:44 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Domination= Good
Manipulation= Bad........UNLESS I know what is going on!

We live in a society in which most people have a need to judge a lot of things as "good"
or "bad".

Neat little categories make life easier right?

 
Cute thread.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/18/2007 9:12:26 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 9:08:11 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		I don't actually agree that a mindfuck is dishonest if it's something the two of you have agreed is an acceptable practice in your relationship and I detest suprise parties.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 12/18/2007 9:09:27 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 9:12:39 PM   
DollMaster72


Posts: 56
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline 		I wonder if in BDSM intimidation ie dominance is and approved way to control another because it is up front.  It is hard to miss who is in control when one is collared, leashed and bound the other is not.  Yet the subtleties of manipulation make it a less obvious form of control to the extent that someone can be much more easily without the notice of the one being manipulated. 

Then we also have the strange twist when the one with the power is the manipulating sub, despite the fact that the dominant one looks in control.  The bdsm communities I have been around surely despise this form of manipulation. 

I think the key to it being either healthy or unhealthy is the intent and honesty of the manipulator, and as well the dominant.

(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 9:14:44 PM   
Peridot


Posts: 78
Status: offline 		"I can manipulate your feelings by pulling out your favorite type of food for dinner, putting on your favorite tv show and generally doing everything I can to manipulate your environment to make it most likely for you to be put into a good mood."

Yes!  Think - manipulation from the bottom - can be a good thing!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 9:22:21 PM   
Honsoku


Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I don't actually agree that a mindfuck is dishonest if it's something the two of you have agreed is an acceptable practice in your relationship and I detest suprise parties.


The act of a mindfuck requires dishonesty. A mindfuck is knowingly leading a person to think one thing, when something else is true. How is that not dishonest? What if I wrap a present for you in an oversized or oddly shaped box? I will have manipulated you into thinking the contents are different from what they are. Is that unacceptable?

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 9:26:34 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku


quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I don't actually agree that a mindfuck is dishonest if it's something the two of you have agreed is an acceptable practice in your relationship and I detest suprise parties.


The act of a mindfuck requires dishonesty. A mindfuck is knowingly leading a person to think one thing, when something else is true. How is that not dishonest? What if I wrap a present for you in an oversized or oddly shaped box? I will have manipulated you into thinking the contents are different from what they are. Is that unacceptable?


I've told you my opinion on the subject.  Further debate won't change it.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 9:30:01 PM   
Honsoku


Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline
I agree. The subtlety implied by manipulation is indeed part of why it is perceived to be bad and the intent and honesty of the person doing the manipulation is very important in determining whether it is healthy or not.

I think the closest thing to the answer is that manipulation implies long term dishonesty, hence why it has become the label for bad domination.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DollMaster72

I wonder if in BDSM intimidation ie dominance is and approved way to control another because it is up front. It is hard to miss who is in control when one is collared, leashed and bound the other is not. Yet the subtleties of manipulation make it a less obvious form of control to the extent that someone can be much more easily without the notice of the one being manipulated.

Then we also have the strange twist when the one with the power is the manipulating sub, despite the fact that the dominant one looks in control. The bdsm communities I have been around surely despise this form of manipulation.

I think the key to it being either healthy or unhealthy is the intent and honesty of the manipulator, and as well the dominant.


(in reply to DollMaster72)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 9:33:27 PM   
whenstarscollide


Posts: 90
Joined: 11/24/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

How are the motivations determined to be different by changing the word? Why is it domination when it is good, but becomes manipulation when bad?



I think this is mostly a matter of semantics...

Domination is the exercise of control or influence over someone or something; it is an impartial term/concept that can have positive or negative effects (depending on context). While manipulation has specific negative connotations - it is influence or control achieved via clever, dishonest, and/or unscrupulous mechanisms. A submissive can see, understand, and, therefore, accept straightforward domination. Manipulation implies a lack of knowledge regarding the level or extent of the domination being enforced. Thus a submissive may feel like s/he is no longer submitting, but being forced.

_____________________________




(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 9:38:33 PM   
dogthing


Posts: 98
Joined: 9/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:


The act of a mindfuck requires dishonesty. A mindfuck is knowingly leading a person to think one thing, when something else is true. How is that not dishonest? What if I wrap a present for you in an oversized or oddly shaped box? I will have manipulated you into thinking the contents are different from what they are. Is that unacceptable?


You mean like hiding an engagement ring inside a christmas cracker?

It's acceptable if its within parameters that are explicitly or implicitly agreed, and if the mf-ee would approve of the final outcome, and (if they knew that outcome) the route taken to get there.

The person doesn't have to know the details.  You don't have to ask "Is it okay if I hide this ring inside this cracker?" You do have to understand the person well enough to know how things might go wrong, and what they might not find acceptabl, for instance, surprising them with the ring in front of their family or friends could embarrass them and make it awkward for them if they didn't want to accept, so that would usually be a hard limit in this example. Surprises can turn into disasters unless it's a very controlled environment.


(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 9:42:03 PM   
StarlightSoul


Posts: 12
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline 		It appears as though you're trying to put domination/manipulation into a black and white kind of deal, but it doesn't really work. Nothing is really that black and white. 

(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 9:45:07 PM   
Honsoku


Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline 		I think your shot winged it. The answer is stumbling and bleeding profusely. I agree that not knowing to what degree domination is happening, is a part of it. I disagree about the feeling forced, as that falls into the difference between "submission" and "obedience". The feeling of being "made" to do something is a desired part of many a persons' relationship.

< Message edited by Honsoku -- 12/18/2007 10:04:45 PM >

(in reply to whenstarscollide)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 9:51:55 PM   
LittleWench


Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline 		Scenario:  A Top has always wanted to see their bottom go bi, the bottom is reluctant.  He brings a second same sex person to the equation.

IF the Top did this without forewarning, if they suprised it on their bottom and the bottom was placed in the situation of obey or make a scene, its manipulation.
IF the Top did this and discussed it with the bottom first, let the bottom know of their intent and their expectation of obeying, then its domination.

(in reply to StarlightSoul)
Profile   Post #: 20
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