RE: Domination vs. Manipulation

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RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/18/2007 10:00:53 PM

AFlyInYourWeb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

A mind fuck is inherently dishonest manipulation, are those not welcome? What about setting up a surprise party?

Honsoku

As you point out, motive is a key element in whether the manipulation is positive or negative. In caring and competent hands, a mind-fuck is a beautiful experience. In uncaring or incompetent hands, it can be an emotional or psychological disaster.

It's all about the kind of hands I give power to...and I am the only one who can make that choice, for better or worse.

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RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/19/2007 6:57:23 AM

Archer

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I think the difference is in the connotation as opposed to the denotation

Dominance is Overt
Manipulation is Covert
(generalized connotations used)

So Dominance being overt the idea of consent is held up since it's not hidden, the person being controled knows they are being controled.
Manipulation being covert the idea of consent is obscured a bit since not knowing they are being controled tends to have a negating effect on the idea of consent.

< Message edited by Archer -- 12/19/2007 6:58:11 AM >

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RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/19/2007 7:07:13 AM

IrishMist

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I am going to have to sort of agree with LA on this one. No matter what you call it...manipulation or domination...it's not the action that matters, but the intent behind it.

I have been through some nasty times in the name of 'domination'; almost everything that was ever done to me was simply manipulation and nothing else. However, the intent behind it was for a good reason; and that made all the difference in the world.

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RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/19/2007 7:29:47 AM

thetammyjo

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I think that manipulation can be a technique and as a technique it is morally/ethically neutral. I think intention is far more important.

Let me talk about something I do that is definitely manipulative but which I do for beneficial reasons -- it's also non-kinky.

My students need to practice the methods and theories I model to them. But experience and other's experience over decades demonstrates that unless work is graded most students will not bother with it. I wish students could just understand that it benefits them to practice but since that seems to be rare I manipulate them by making the practices worth points and grading them. The goal then is to help them master the material and engage in the world more critically.

Now if the exercises had nothing to do with practicing the methods and theories and were merely there to be busy work or were graded at a level well beyond their true value, then I'd say that my manipulation was a bad thing.

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RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/19/2007 7:33:53 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I don't actually agree that a mindfuck is dishonest if it's something the two of you have agreed is an acceptable practice in your relationship and I detest suprise parties.

The act of a mindfuck requires dishonesty. A mindfuck is knowingly leading a person to think one thing, when something else is true. How is that not dishonest? What if I wrap a present for you in an oversized or oddly shaped box? I will have manipulated you into thinking the contents are different from what they are. Is that unacceptable?

I suppose one could say playing cards is "dishonest" too... sorry dude, I find this view to be pretty much rubbish... people play games all the time and keep information close to the vest, mindfucks are a fun game and the people involve consent to playing that game...

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RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/19/2007 8:36:35 AM

toservez

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Manipulation is a colorful word that people want to run away from but the fact is most everyone including submissives have it in their arsenal it is just that most of us will/can only use it in very minor doses. Often how we phrase a question or respond to something has an element of manipulation.

I expect to be manipulated greatly by my Master. That is just part of the power exchange aspect. The difference between healthy and unhealthy to me it not so much intent but how it is applied. I am a grown woman I know when I am being manipulated whether in regular life or in my relationship I accept it and in my relationship enjoy it. My Master’s motivations are a secondary concern then how it affects me in terms of dealing with it.

To me it crosses the line when manipulation becomes emotional blackmail. When the desired result becomes more important then caring about the submissive’s feelings and happiness.

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RE: Domination vs. Manipulation - 12/19/2007 9:13:05 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

I expect to be manipulated greatly by my Master. That is just part of the power exchange aspect. The difference between healthy and unhealthy to me it not so much intent but how it is applied. I am a grown woman I know when I am being manipulated whether in regular life or in my relationship I accept it and in my relationship enjoy it. My Master’s motivations are a secondary concern then how it affects me in terms of dealing with it.

I feel this way, too. Giving my mind over to my Master meant he can do anything to it he wishes, just as he can with my body. And in giving my mind over, I did so with complete trust in him that his intentions for me would be good. Having said that, yes he has manipulated me. As toservez has said, I know when he is manipulating me, and I accept it. There are times when this practice is more difficult than others, but I am not selective about what I submit to, so I deal with the difficulty. So far, the end result has been a stronger, more self-secure woman, and a slave he greatly enjoys.

I agree with those who said intent determines whether manipulation is "good" or "bad." I could cook a fabulous, gourmet dinner for the woman next door, simply to befriend her for good company....or to befriend her so I can get to her husband. So, in my perspective, the question isn't whether or not manipulation is good or bad, it's do you trust your dominant to have good intentions for you or bad?

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