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the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of BDSM - 12/15/2007 8:00:17 AM   
ghitaPVH


Posts: 1363
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		Ok, I hope I can make this make sense. More and more I see people on here talk about hypnotism and other types of practices that have a profound mental impact on the submissive. Some Doms use types of brainwashing (for lack of a better term) techniques very similar to old marine corps techniques. Trust me, sleep depreivation, muscular exhaustion, dehydration, starvation, all those things...really work. they truly can effect the mental state and compleatly alter a persons personality and belief system. You keep a person awake long enough and they will do absoultly anything you tell them to, and they will generally retain a good bit of "training" after the deprivation period is over and done with. Anyway, used in a BDSM context, it can be rather powerful. rather intense, and in the right situation, rather hot. To go to the point where a persons body has compleatly shut down, you can literally take a persons body to the point where they can not function without a command, they forget how to walk, how to talk, how to dress until you drill it into their head exactly how you expect them to respond.

OK, so yea, to most people this would be seen as a major form of abuse, but it does happen, and I have to wonder. Do the people who do it really think very far past the fantasy? When you fuck with a persons mental capacities to this point...youve got to realize its a permenant effect. What happens two years down the road when the relationship is over for one reason or another? How is that sub supposed to "go on". There is no recovery...at least not total recovery.....and do people ever consider the fact that what they are doing will have lasting effects long after their relationship is done?

Its been six years for me since I got out of that relationship. And I just had a massive slap in the face this morning realizing that as hard as I try, I still cant shake the responses that were drilled into my head back then. My body hasnt physically recovered since then, and according to the docs it probably never will, but mentally? I never expected to still be dealing with this now. this far down the road.

anyway, I am not sure I really had anything important to say with this post, other than wondering whats in the heads of people who really get into the mental aspects of BDSM, and what are your reasons behind it? Is it a fantasy? Is it the control? how do you guard against permanant damage? Do you just assume the sub will be with you forever so it wont matter?

_____________________________

Don't expect anything of me and I promise I'll never disappoint you.

"The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything. --Nietzsche"
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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 8:54:15 AM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH

Ok, I hope I can make this make sense. More and more I see people on here talk about hypnotism and other types of practices that have a profound mental impact on the submissive. Some Doms use types of brainwashing (for lack of a better term) techniques very similar to old marine corps techniques. Trust me, sleep depreivation, muscular exhaustion, dehydration, starvation, all those things...really work. they truly can effect the mental state and compleatly alter a persons personality and belief system. You keep a person awake long enough and they will do absoultly anything you tell them to, and they will generally retain a good bit of "training" after the deprivation period is over and done with. Anyway, used in a BDSM context, it can be rather powerful. rather intense, and in the right situation, rather hot. To go to the point where a persons body has compleatly shut down, you can literally take a persons body to the point where they can not function without a command, they forget how to walk, how to talk, how to dress until you drill it into their head exactly how you expect them to respond.

OK, so yea, to most people this would be seen as a major form of abuse, but it does happen, and I have to wonder. Do the people who do it really think very far past the fantasy? When you fuck with a persons mental capacities to this point...youve got to realize its a permenant effect. What happens two years down the road when the relationship is over for one reason or another? How is that sub supposed to "go on". There is no recovery...at least not total recovery.....and do people ever consider the fact that what they are doing will have lasting effects long after their relationship is done?

Its been six years for me since I got out of that relationship. And I just had a massive slap in the face this morning realizing that as hard as I try, I still cant shake the responses that were drilled into my head back then. My body hasnt physically recovered since then, and according to the docs it probably never will, but mentally? I never expected to still be dealing with this now. this far down the road.

anyway, I am not sure I really had anything important to say with this post, other than wondering whats in the heads of people who really get into the mental aspects of BDSM, and what are your reasons behind it? Is it a fantasy? Is it the control? how do you guard against permanant damage? Do you just assume the sub will be with you forever so it wont matter?


Are old marines all damaged by their training?

quote:

Trust me, sleep depreivation, muscular exhaustion, dehydration, starvation, all those things...really work. they truly can effect the mental state and compleatly alter a persons personality and belief system.


I'm not sure what you mean by completely, but setting that aside ...

Have you ever been present in the aftermath of a natural disaster? When survivors pull together to prevail under adverse conditions with limited resources they can end up in a condition just like the one you describe: sleep deprived, physically exhausted, dehydrated, starving, all those things.

Some might be scarred physically or mentally by these events and their reaction to the events. Call these group A.

Some will come to know themselves and appreciate the world and their life in ways and to degrees that they may never have achieved without that powerful experience. Call these group B.

It is interesting to me that groups A and B are not mutually exclusive. Some of the people who are ever-after grateful for the epiphanies revealed and capabilities discovered in such an extreme situation are among those who take away scars.

Each of these people ends up changed, different. On that we can probably all agree. We might even agree that every one of them leaves something there that they will never get back. But aren't some things very much worth leaving behind?

Should we call all of the scarred people damaged? Should they call themselves damaged?

I'm sorry if you and your partner went too far and you are in just plain fucked in certain ways by the whole business..

I encourage you to--maybe you have already--assume responsibility for the decisions you made and actions you took in that relationship.

I further encourage you not to conceive of yourself as damaged. "Damaged" is an evaluation, after all. And we can over time decide and control what we value as positive as well as what we will value as negative.

You are who and what you are these six years after that relationship. You were partially formed by it, as you were by every other relationship in your life. A person in your position has a choice whether to allow themselves to be defined by a given experience.

Seems to me like you're doing pretty well. Good for you. Keep it up.














(in reply to ghitaPVH)
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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 9:04:14 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah
I encourage you to--maybe you have already--assume responsibility for the decisions you made and actions you took in that relationship.

Exactly, and the key difference between a tornado in your path and an abusive relationship is that you can always end the relationship.

Six years isn't so far IMO actually.  Try another decade of serious deep work on yourself.

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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 9:13:56 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		People have lots of great fantasies that, for one reason or another, should not become realities.  One of those reasons involves competence. 
 
Want to fly a plane?  Better take flying lessons to become competent. 
 
Want to drive a train?  Try becoming a skilled engineer.
 
Want to engage in hypnotism and brainwashing?  If you aren't a trained and skilled professional, you're just another train wreck or crash and burn waiting to happen.  The only factor in your favor is the loss of life is likely (though not certainly) to be lower.
 
John

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Sri da Avabhas

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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 9:14:56 AM   
ghitaPVH


Posts: 1363
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		hmmm, ok, so I should clarify. Ive taken compleate responsibility for my previous relationship. Truth is I kind of miss the relationship. I made the choice to enter into it, and I also made the choice to leave it. I left it for reasons I havent and wont talk about here but lets just say other things happened that made life difficult.

Noah, no, I dont think Marines are damaged as a whole. I didnt say the techniques were bad, but sometimes the things that can be tought using those techniques can be. does that make sense?

My question wasnt "oh god Im damanged how do I get past this traumatic experiance" Never once did I say any of those things and if it came accross that way I apologize. My question was just if people who played with things liek this, ever thought about long term repercussions and does it matter to you or not.

_____________________________

Don't expect anything of me and I promise I'll never disappoint you.

"The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything. --Nietzsche"

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 9:52:01 AM   
Peridot


Posts: 78
Status: offline 		Hi ghita:  There is no need to apologize. You asked a good question.

While each kind of service can be voluntary and consensual, maybe the difference is in responsible leadership, a solid structure, provision of training, and more.  I do not have experience so these are examples.

The techniques may well be valid and productive in either environment; if used with care.




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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 10:10:08 AM   
Noah


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Joined: 7/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH

hmmm, ok, so I should clarify. Ive taken compleate responsibility for my previous relationship. Truth is I kind of miss the relationship. I made the choice to enter into it, and I also made the choice to leave it. I left it for reasons I havent and wont talk about here but lets just say other things happened that made life difficult.

Noah, no, I dont think Marines are damaged as a whole. I didnt say the techniques were bad, but sometimes the things that can be tought using those techniques can be. does that make sense?

My question wasnt "oh god Im damanged how do I get past this traumatic experiance" Never once did I say any of those things and if it came accross that way I apologize. My question was just if people who played with things liek this, ever thought about long term repercussions and does it matter to you or not.


I agree that there is nothing to apologize for in your post. I didn't read that "oh my god I'm ... " sort of thing into your post at all.

You seem pretty cool and together and you've posed some worthwhile questions here. Rock on with your subbie self.

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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 10:38:46 AM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

People have lots of great fantasies that, for one reason or another, should not become realities.  One of those reasons involves competence. 
 
Want to fly a plane?  Better take flying lessons to become competent. 
 
Want to drive a train?  Try becoming a skilled engineer.
 
Want to engage in hypnotism and brainwashing?  If you aren't a trained and skilled professional, you're just another train wreck or crash and burn waiting to happen.  The only factor in your favor is the loss of life is likely (though not certainly) to be lower.
 
John


The Wright brothers seem to have had a fantasy about soaring through the sky. I'm ever so grateful that they didn't wait to graduate from flight school before they tried to realize that fantasy.

There are competencies for which no classrooms exist.

Where does one matriculate for a degree in Consensual Psychological Sadism? I know the military has programs for the unconsensual kind.

Should we never attempt anything difficult, dangerous, and potentially richly rewarding unless the state has sanctioned it with some sort of certificate?

One (or, more to the point, two) can proceed with care and integrity in a stepwise fashion with all parties cognizant that deep risk is present and in consent.

I didn't enter into physical S&M as fantasy fulfillment. I had never fantasized about before the first moment I engaged in it over thirty years ago. It was unplanned, spontaneous, dangerous, imperfect and wonderful. I started small, as you might say, and I'm still growing. The same pattern held, and holds, for my experience of psychological S&M, but only for a dozen years or so.

Still waiting for your inevitable train wreck.



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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 11:33:50 AM   
SubmissiveAK


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Joined: 3/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:


Want to engage in hypnotism and brainwashing?  If you aren't a trained and skilled professional, you're just another train wreck or crash and burn waiting to happen.  The only factor in your favor is the loss of life is likely (though not certainly) to be lower.
 
John



So true, I heartily agree on this.

I was introduced to submission via a skilled hypnodomme.

This is hard for me to talk about. I will just say that there are many forms of hypnotism, some supprizingly effective in the right persons hands. I have been changed, deeply by trance. Ugh

OP: Though I understand the effects you are talking about, For me, I dont consider them hypnotism. I consider that brainwashing, and yes the two are different. Hypnotism conjures images of trance, NLP & ericksonian hypnosis. In a BDSM setting, I believe it to be a powerful tool to bring a dominant into the submissive's head.

I'm sorry, I just find this difficult to talk about for some reason.

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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 11:49:22 AM   
ghitaPVH


Posts: 1363
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		Im with noah. Rover, I agree with you on sooo many things on these boards, but I just gotta know. Where are you going to get your degree in brainwashing? Maybe just maybe I'd take certain types of military training as a viable answer...but even then.

_____________________________

Don't expect anything of me and I promise I'll never disappoint you.

"The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything. --Nietzsche"

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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 11:53:43 AM   
AFlyInYourWeb


Posts: 284
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH

My question was just if people who played with things liek this, ever thought about long term repercussions and does it matter to you or not.


Yes, it matters to me, and I am aware of the possible repercussions.  It is legitimate fodder for detailed discussion with the Dominant before going there.

That's why it all comes down to the Dominant using the technique.  If I trust her to be caring, and know her to be competent, I'm far more likely to agree to it.

After all, I survived the Army, didn't I?





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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 11:53:47 AM   
OldBastardly1


Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SubmissiveAK


So true, I heartily agree on this.

I was introduced to submission via a skilled hypnodomme.

This is hard for me to talk about. I will just say that there are many forms of hypnotism, some supprizingly effective in the right persons hands. I have been changed, deeply by trance. Ugh

OP: Though I understand the effects you are talking about, For me, I dont consider them hypnotism. I consider that brainwashing, and yes the two are different. Hypnotism conjures images of trance, NLP & ericksonian hypnosis. In a BDSM setting, I believe it to be a powerful tool to bring a dominant into the submissive's head.

I'm sorry, I just find this difficult to talk about for some reason.


This is going to sound a bit harsh, so I apologize for that now.

If it is so hard to talk about, why did *you* make the decision *to* talk about it. Reading a post does not require you add to the thread.

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad



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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 12:03:17 PM   
BlindDescent


Posts: 113
Joined: 9/26/2006
Status: offline 		    As they say with therapists; anyone can open a nasty can of worms in a session. It is the skilled therapist who can close it back up at the end, allowing the person to carry on appropriately until the next appointment. So it is with those that control and manipulate here. There are a lot ot openers; but not nearly as many closers. The intent of the opener has a lot to do with the place where one is left. The context of the longevity of the relationship  is another ingrediant. If you allow yourself to be: used abused demeaned humilliated tortured depersonalized and such; then you have entered into the realm of just desserts. If you have been manipulated into something you hadn't agreed upon initially...then that's another story. If circumstances were forced upon you with no input...then you are in the oh shit category.  My points being; if you give up all sense of self in these relationships and sessions, then you are no longer a consumer. You are the recipient of what comes your way.  The cult of pushing limits without common sense seems to leave quite a few disasters in its wake. Puttting one's physical well being into another's hands is one thing...putting one's psyche into that trust is another entirely. The beginnings of journeys often take ununexpected turns. Placing oneself into the trust of a skilled manipulator doesn't always mean they are ethical...or vice versa. Those painful aches and desires we are compelled to answer often make us open ourselves up faster and deeper than we should otherwise.  I feel that  it might be prudent to take periodic hard looks at where we are and where the relationship is going; otherwise the endorphins will seduce you into believing hell is really heaven.
This didn't start out to sound like an editorial...but professionally dealing with the long long long term affects of abuse on others, it's hard to separate it out.

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Reality is what you create; not what others leave behind.

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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 1:20:40 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		The human mind is the most evolved organ on the planet. It has infinite capacity for both creativity and destruction. Few things upset me more than hearing about psychological abuse and hypnotism, as opposed to hypnotherapy, is one such form of abuse.
Would you ask an unqualifies person to do surgery on you with a pick axe/ That analogy is like an untrained hypnotist messing with your mind.
Paranoia, mistaken realities, unwanted behaviours, illusional reality, triggered responses, false memories....all of this can be quite easity created in another person by misuse of that wonderful awareness in human beings known as suggestibility.
The world itself is a suggestible place making us all feel like we need this and that, we none of us are immune to the ruthless and all pervasive persuasion that is modern life.
You are doing brilliantly ghits to have such insight and self-appraisal.
They may never go those demons implanted by that unethical other,,,,,,but none of us are tabla rasas.
It's shite just fkn bollox what gets put out by unqualified, undignfied and quite ugly practitoners of both an ancient and modern form of mind magic, which in skilful hands, bound by codes of ethics, is a marvellous tool for healing.

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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 1:31:37 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH

Im with noah. Rover, I agree with you on sooo many things on these boards, but I just gotta know. Where are you going to get your degree in brainwashing? Maybe just maybe I'd take certain types of military training as a viable answer...but even then.


Much has been researched into the effects of adrenal stress and methods used to enact this sort of imprinting.  There is no safe way to do a dangerous thing.  Additionally, nobody really knows what sort of imprinting they had precognitively which WIITWD might bring out in either a negative or positive way.  A valid comparison would be somebody in a combat zone.  All sorts of things happen to the person, some come home permanently changed in a positive way, some come home permanently changed in a negative way.

I am with Noah, learn what you can, do the best you can, and make sure you have your therapist on retainer.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 1:58:04 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
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Status: offline 		I don't see anything being discussed here as having anything remotely to do with hypnosis.

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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 2:05:16 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

I don't see anything being discussed here as having anything remotely to do with hypnosis.


Well, I imagine it would qualify as "other mental forms of BDSM."

At least for those who dont lose focus and attention after encountering a comma.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 2:07:16 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

The Wright brothers seem to have had a fantasy about soaring through the sky. I'm ever so grateful that they didn't wait to graduate from flight school before they tried to realize that fantasy.


There are differing levels of competency required for devices or procedures of differing complexity.  The competency to ride a bike requires less training than is required to drive a car, which is less than required to fly a modern airplane, which is less than is required to pilot the space shuttle, etc. 
 
The Wright brothers built bicycles for a living... which speaks volumes about the complexity of the craft they built (and does nothing to detract from their ingenuity). 
quote:


There are competencies for which no classrooms exist.


Classrooms exist for psychology.  As portrayed in the OP, I don't see a functional difference between that experience and those involving unqualified Dominants who play the part of therapist, purposely engage in catharsis, or any one of many activities for which they are unqualified.

quote:


Where does one matriculate for a degree in Consensual Psychological Sadism? I know the military has programs for the unconsensual kind.


Admittedly, none exist.  But they do exist for brainwashing, hypnosis, psychology and the issues raised by the OP (or at least as I perceived them).

quote:


Should we never attempt anything difficult, dangerous, and potentially richly rewarding unless the state has sanctioned it with some sort of certificate?


I never said or implied that to be the case.  But there is a lengthy and well deserved reliance upon a Top/Dominant's skills, experience, capability, competence, etc.  Not so much for spanking, for instance.  And moreso for cuttings/carvings as an example.  That is an undeniable fact.

quote:


One (or, more to the point, two) can proceed with care and integrity in a stepwise fashion with all parties cognizant that deep risk is present and in consent.


They can, and they do.  And they learn as they go, often involving trial and error.  Not so bad for the Top, not so good for the bottom.  Is the OP an example of such?  A case can be made that it is, and I commented upon the OP itself.  Not theoretical methods for mutual exploration in a vacuum of information (ie: without the benefit of teaching/training etc.).

quote:


I didn't enter into physical S&M as fantasy fulfillment. I had never fantasized about before the first moment I engaged in it over thirty years ago. It was unplanned, spontaneous, dangerous, imperfect and wonderful. I started small, as you might say, and I'm still growing. The same pattern held, and holds, for my experience of psychological S&M, but only for a dozen years or so.

Still waiting for your inevitable train wreck.


First of all, I have no idea what your experience is, how it was acquired, or how it compares to the OP.  But I do know that it's not advisable to stand on the fairway holding a golf club to the heavens during a lightning storm... despite the fact that everyone doing so will not surely be struck by lightning.
 
Still, life is not without risk and folks should make up their own minds, properly informed of what those risks may be.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Noah)
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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 2:11:56 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH

Im with noah. Rover, I agree with you on sooo many things on these boards, but I just gotta know. Where are you going to get your degree in brainwashing? Maybe just maybe I'd take certain types of military training as a viable answer...but even then.


There's no need to agree with everything I think.  I'd be shocked and dismayed if you (or anyone else) did.  :)
 
Just because adequate training is difficult to come by does not make it any less valuable or necessary.  In fact, if it's very difficult to come by it might be indicative that it is a highly specialized field and very necessary.
 
N'est pas?
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

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RE: the fallout of hypnotism, and other mental forms of... - 12/15/2007 2:13:57 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OldBastardly1

This is going to sound a bit harsh, so I apologize for that now.

If it is so hard to talk about, why did *you* make the decision *to* talk about it. Reading a post does not require you add to the thread.


I wouldn't say it sounded harsh, just crass.  I have seen you post plenty of times without contributing to a thread.  We all do it at some point.  Why do you feel the need to single out AK, when her post did contribute her thoughts on hypno?  Rhetorical btw.  I'm not particularly interested in your reply.
 
Hijack over.
 
the.dark.


_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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