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Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 2:14:06 AM

eyesopened

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i'm not sure i am expressing myself as well as i would like but there's something i've been thinking about.

i had the pleasure of observing mosh pits at a concert a few years back. High energy, self-expression, everyone doing whatever they wanted as the mood struck them. It looked liked contained chaos. There did seem to be a few unwritten rules like don't ball up a fist and punch someone, but other than that, no real rules, just do what feels good.

i have had the pleasure of observing ballroom dancing. To me, this is amazing that two people dance seperately but seemingly fluid, as one body. It occurred to me that i prefer the ballroom dancing. Not because it is a better form of expression, but because it takes practice, communication, dedication and while good dancers make it look easy and effortless, it takes a huge amount of effort.

The mosh pit takes no effort or dedication, but is it a lessor form of expression? Does ballroom dancing take less energy?

BDSM, D/s, M/s relationships and activities could find some parallel. Some people (like me) prefer the ballroom dancing approach. Rules, protocol, actual steps, timing, practice with a dedicated partner. Other people prefer the high energy "do whatever works for you" approach. What concerns me a bit it the tendancy for people to promote the "no rules, do whatever" train of thought and at times even denegrate the more formal approach to wiitwd.

Certainly there is room for both.

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 2:49:31 AM

ExSteelAgain

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From: Georgia
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I’m not into moshing crowds, but I am into appreciating someone metaphorically shouting poetry from the roof tops. There is a certain awareness of feeling that is similar in music, literature and art in general that can be reached by some, but not by all. You can practice ballroom dancing, tennis, golf or whatever all day and not get to that mad, mad, mad state of feeling…where you never say ordinary things, hang out with boring people or live a confined life where you only worry about the stars being gaseous fires that are burning out. I can reach greater levels looking at those stars with someone and later flogging her in the moonlight than I could by being a robot like astronaut in a bulky space suit walking on the moon. I get IT.

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 2:58:46 AM

RCdc

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.seriously.

If someone believes that being in a moshpit does not take dedication or effort and that there isn't protocols - then they clearly have never taken the time to experience it even once. Which is cool. But without the experience, any comment is one that is vicarious and not really sound information.

the.dark.

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 3:08:32 AM

eyesopened

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i'm sorry.
i should have known better.
Is there a way to remove a thread?

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 3:13:54 AM

ExSteelAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

i'm sorry.
i should have known better.
Is there a way to remove a thread?

LOL, don't be so thinned skin. I kind of like my post. Don't delete the thread. DarcyandDark were just saying...

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 12/12/2007 3:14:27 AM >

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You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 3:17:06 AM

subrob1967

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

.seriously.

If someone believes that being in a moshpit does not take dedication or effort and that there isn't protocols - then they clearly have never taken the time to experience it even once. Which is cool. But without the experience, any comment is one that is vicarious and not really sound information.

the.dark.

Now speak after me...Metaphor

You should look it up, seriously...

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 6

RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 3:19:22 AM

spanklette

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Joined: 2/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

The mosh pit takes no effort or dedication, but is it a lessor form of expression? Does ballroom dancing take less energy?

BDSM, D/s, M/s relationships and activities could find some parallel. Some people (like me) prefer the ballroom dancing approach. Rules, protocol, actual steps, timing, practice with a dedicated partner. Other people prefer the high energy "do whatever works for you" approach. What concerns me a bit it the tendancy for people to promote the "no rules, do whatever" train of thought and at times even denegrate the more formal approach to wiitwd.

Certainly there is room for both.

I can appreciate the metaphor, but I have to disagree that mosh pits "take no effort or dedication". I have had the pleasure to participate in both of these activities and mostly its just a different energy rather than a lack of it.

Ballroom dancing is generally done to different music and in a different set of circumstances. Mosh pits generally will take place at another venue. Both of them are enjoyable to me, but are not always appropriate in similar situations. Ballroom dancing at a ska concert mosh pit would probably result in broken bones and jumping around at a cotillion would probably have you escorted out.

Rather than decide which is the better metaphor for styles of BDSM, I'm more inclined to see different aspects of BDSM being appropriate for certain situations. It's not okay to arrive to a munch at a restauraunt in assless chaps, and sometimes streetclothes aren't allowed at BDSM events like the "Rubber Ball".

And, just because things look like they have no rhyme or reason does not mean that there is not an underlying sense of order. My desk at work looks like a tornado has come through, but if you need a certain document I can pin point it in moments. My assistant comes in and straightens my office and I can't find things for weeks. Even though one lookes more orderly on the outside, it's not nearly as efficient for me...and it's MY desk, in MY office, so it's MY way. (My assistant is of the "one true way"office cleanliness philosophy.)

The whole point of that is that one form does not denegrate the others. Some things are appropriate in certain situations while some are not. And, some things are personally preferable to others. So, it's less about "energy" and "effort" and more about circumstance and preference.

< Message edited by spanklette -- 12/12/2007 3:22:01 AM >

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 3:22:15 AM

RCdc

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If you need a thread pulled, you have to ask a mod. But why would you want to remove the thread? You made a point of posting something that is how you think and perceive. I don't disagree that there is a place for ballroom dancing and for the mosh pit - we particpate in both and we are big on the belief that if possible both should be experienced at least twice.

I just don't believe that there is anything completely protocoless (if there is such a word) or rule-less and the only way you find that out is by the doing. Without protocols and rules and effort, everything would be exactly the same. The mere fact that activities can be called 'ballroomdancing' and 'moshing' just goes to show that they are defined.

the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Post #: 8

RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 3:26:24 AM

RCdc

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And you should look up the word 'disagree'.

I believe eyesopened made a good post, doesn't mean I agree. Moshpits do take dedication and effort. There are also rules - unlike which was said. If you haven't been in one, then you wouldn't necessarily know. It's called 'discussion' or 'discovery'. You may want to look them up as well.

the.dark.
(.editbecausemyenglishsucks.)

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 12/12/2007 3:58:04 AM >

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 3:54:53 AM

ExSteelAgain

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I do think there are two different kinds of energies involved and that is her point. The ballroom dancer is going to be critiqued for the slightest gesture. Personally, I appreciate more the energy of the mosh pit even though I’ve never done that. Still I don’t think the slightest mistake would be noticed. It is more about feeling and emotion.

My own point is that dynamism and sentiment are more important than structure and that is found in modern art of all kinds including the mosh pit. I’m certainly not dissing the effort it takes in the mosh pit.

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 3:59:34 AM

spanklette

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

I do think there are two different kinds of energies involved and that is her point. The ballroom dancer is going to be critiqued for the slightest gesture. Personally, I appreciate more the energy of the mosh pit even though I’ve never done that. Still I don’t think the slightest mistake would be noticed. It is more about feeling and emotion.

My own point is that dynamism and sentiment are more important than structure and that is found in modern art of all kinds including the mosh pit. I’m certainly not dissing the effort it takes in the mosh pit.

You know, I hadn't thought about mistakes...I wonder if the metaphor is suited. You might not notice a "mistake" in a mosh pit, but "mistakes" can lead to getting trampled and genuinely hurt. I wonder if anyone has ever been trampled while ballroom dancing..."Dancing with the Stars" seems to be a very blood thirsty show...and with the writers on strike...could lead to some very good ratings...

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"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 11

RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 4:08:09 AM

ExSteelAgain

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I don't know that much about ballroom dancing, but I like that thing where the guy uses a whip on the girl while they dance. I'd like to see one of those couples on Dancing with the Stars try that...heh. Hey, I find it interesting to see the defenders of the moshing pit. Nothing wrong with that.

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You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

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Post #: 12

RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 4:09:47 AM

RCdc

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If you are in a mosh pit you'll soon see a 'mistake' coming if it's something you do regularly!
You do make a good point. I don't know about other countries, but here in the UK we have a show called 'Strictly Come Dancing' which is stars paired with professionals and it's all done for chariety etc and they are voted off each week. There are judges who can see the tiniest flaw in the dance and who mark them down for it. For those who have never danced ballroom, they never notice it. But the flaw is still there. Unless you know the rules or have a go, you would never know yourself. It's all about the commitment to the dynamic you choose I guess hey.
Either artform, there is injury at somepoint regardless...

the.dark.

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RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 4:37:53 AM

Lucylastic

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Competetive Ballroom dancing is horrendously bitchy and backstabbing. I started ballroom dancing when I was 4(after finding out that I could NOT handle ballet) and when dancing in a competition at hammersmith palais when I was about 12, there was indeed an accident at a dance off and several couples got trampled when the heel of a female dancer broke , practically a dog pile of sequins and tulle. Ive had more injuries doing that than I ever did when I took a brief time at moshing.
But all forms of dance, from ballroom thru moshing to disco to breakdancing have their rules and protocols, believers and traditionalists, as well as a fair few like myself who like different kinds of "protocols" for different occasions. The skill and rules may be understood, but the idea(for me personally) is to lose yourself in the music and dance my ass off. The same can be said for my BDSM activities, you reach a certain skill/experience level, the more enjoyment you get out of it.
Just my thoughts , your mileage may vary
Lucy
who is now thinking about taking classes again

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 4:46:18 AM

Dari

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My friends say I'm not allowed to mosh. Mostly because when strangers bump me more than once, I have a violent need to throw them across the room. If I couldn't do it, that would be fine, but since I can, well...<cough>

That being said - there is absolutely different energy, and I think you could reasonably compare the approaches to the way people approach BDSM. But keep in mind, even those people who happily play with multiple partners, keep it casual, and don't only play with The One do follow protocol and rules - they're just different.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 5:03:18 AM

RCdc

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This is Darcy

Back in the eighties my life revolved around rock music and so I found myself in a good many moshpits. While they may look like chaotic unorganised brawls to the casual observer, they are actually great fun, and there are a good deal of unwritten protocols that are attached to paticipating.

First and foremost, if you enter a moshpit then you will get hurt - not seriously, because that's not the ethos behind it, but if you don't come out of the pit with bruises and occasionally a fat lip or a black eye, then you're not giving it your all.

I guess there are parallels with BDSM to a degree, in that the participants are willingly consenting to being physically abused (so to speak) by the other moshers, and also there is an 'unwritten safe word' type scenario, in that in every moshpit I've ever been in, if someone goes down, then there are instantly a number of hands there to help them up to prevent 'unwanted' injuries from trampling and the like. The irony is that although to the outsider the pit looks like a hotbed of violence and anger (which it is, of course, but in a positive way), when you're in one it's actually a friendly place in which to work out your various frustrations with the world to ear-bleedingly loud and fast music.

I can honestly say that coming out of a good moshpit is almost as good as the aftermath of good sex........almost!

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 7:11:09 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

BDSM, D/s, M/s relationships and activities could find some parallel. Some people (like me) prefer the ballroom dancing approach. Rules, protocol, actual steps, timing, practice with a dedicated partner. Other people prefer the high energy "do whatever works for you" approach. What concerns me a bit it the tendancy for people to promote the "no rules, do whatever" train of thought and at times even denegrate the more formal approach to wiitwd.

I am a "whatever works for you" approach.. which is different than "no rules, do whatever" approach. If it works for you, do it! I do not see as it matters whichever other people do in their own private life. I have not seen people advocating one approach over another, other than perhaps to tell noobs that instead of trying to fit themselves into someone else's idea of what this all means, that they should form their own idea..

I do not think of myself as a mosh dancer or a ballroom dancer.. maybe a salsa dancer. We have protocol, it just isn't what other people consider protocol, he has made our own personal protocol. Now it may look different than ballroom dancing, but it has steps, just not the same ones as what I commonly read here.

Neither way is right or wrong... nor better or worse... it just is what it is.

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 7:15:07 AM

chellekitty

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i kind of like the rules of a mosh pit better...no, they aren't written out all nicely for you to read and study but they are there, and if you break them you get your face bashed, not peanalty points...rules like, if you're small you get protected from the bigger people, doesn't matter your gender and as Darcy said, if anyone goes down, doesn't matter if you are the tiniest person or the biggest, there are a number of hands to help you back up (you gotta take them though, i have seen guys try and act tough and refuse help...they got hurt bad while they were down cause when you refuse help, people don't give a fuck), but at the same time, if you get in a mosh pit, you better know what you're getting into....and if you give something you better be able to get it back....like if you shove someone, be able to take a shove...if you want to slam against someon, be able to take a slam....you regulate what you get by giving it...and like i said, if you break the rules...like say you go around and slam into people that aren't slamming into other people, ther are people there that will grab you and throw you on the ground and regulate you....it's not nice and pretty....it's organized chaos...you know where you stand with every single person in that pit...you're just another body there to work some energy and anger off on....there are no judges, no long standing personal grudges...i'm not winning a prize, i'm not looking to be pleasing, i'm there to get down to the base of me...if i want calm and relaxing music, i'll go see a coffee house band...i like plenty....

it's funny, i am multifaceted in my life, i go to BDSM munches and play parties, but i also go to NA meetings, and i also go to church (don't do as much live music these days but if i did, i would mention it)....but if i ever talk about going to any of the other two at one of the other, i get looked at like i am crazy..."those people can't possibly understand us"...all three groups say the same thing about eachother...yet i am a part of all three groups...at no detriment to the other....i can find parallels in everything i do...if i couldn't, i would not do them...yes, there are parallels to my bdsm in ballroom dancing, but there are also parallels to my bdsm in mosh pits...because that is what i thrive on, that is what i need...i crave calm order, rules and regulations, and authority in my life...i need an outlet with rules and regulations and protection (sometimes just from myself) where i can let out the energy and anger....

chelle

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 7:36:36 AM

AquaticSub

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The thing about ballroom dancing is that, for it to just look good, it only takes a lot of practice and effort from one person - the lead. A good lead with nice stiff arms will be able to lead anyone and make them look good. Obviously it looks better when both people are excellent dancers, but all that is needed is just a good lead.

With a mosh pit, nobody is leading. Everyone is taking an active role is what is going on. I certainly wouldn't call it a lesser form of expression. Not as lovely to watch but I've found it more fun to take part of than ballroom dancing. I don't need to wait around for a good lead!

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RE: Protocol of the Mosh Pit - 12/12/2007 10:29:06 AM

Phin

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When you jump into the pit, you better know what you are getting into. Is there a guy there throwing elbows? Is there someone (females are particularly bad for this) highstepping, meaning raising heavy boots to knee level and then slamming them down the length of someones shin? I have seen guys carried unconcious from a pit. I have seen a hat fly off then when the pit slowed down it be snapped back on the owner's head. There are extreames in a pit just like there are extreames in wiitwd. You need to look at what is going on around you and deside weither on not to jump in.

On a side note, the high that I get from the pit is very similar to the high that I have as I am letting a girl loose from her bonds.

Phin, avid Metalhead, mosher, and weilder of the whip and rope.

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