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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 2:40:02 PM   
Crush


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

Freedom of speech has been curtailed ever since "Political Correctness" came on the scene.  



An explantion will be useful.



Sure...with "political correctness" comes "personal cowardice."  


To quote: "What Is Political Correctness?
Political Correctness (PC) is the communal tyranny that erupted in the 1980s. It was a spontaneous declaration that particular ideas, expressions and behaviour, which were then legal, should be forbidden by law, and people who transgressed should be punished. (see Newspeak) It started with a few voices but grew in popularity until it became unwritten and written law within the community. With those who were publicly declared as being not politically correct becoming the object of persecution by the mob, if not prosecution by the state." -- source: http://www.ourcivilisation.com/pc.htm 

Who is to say what is "politically correct" in a situation?    Community standards?  If that was the case, many of us on Collarme would be in serious trouble!   

I'm a university professor and I'm appalled at the way P/C has infiltrated discussion and discourse.   No topic should go undiscussed, evaluated, and subject to the meeting of the minds.  But P/C prevents that from happening, especially on topics that really NEED that kind of discussion.  Need an example:  Consider something such as simple as "Merry Christmas"     Now you have to be aware of "Happy Holidays" unless it is someone who doesn't like them, etc, etc., instead of the meaning of the greeting..."wishing you well" or whatever.  And that's a lame/tame example.

And yes, it is a foolishness...consider all the humor related to "Political Correctness"   http://www.pcphrases.com/

And instead of "sex" we said "Exxoned" because of that great Nebraskan Senator J.J. Exon...(google it yourself)

I don't recall my not being offended as being a basic right of the US Constitution.  In fact, I should be more offended more often as a US Citizen than most people around the world...but with the right to say so and engage the "offender" in discourse.  That way, Owner59 and I can have many differing, opposing positions,  yet still respect one another and often find common ground.

Politically Correct -->Feel good "Piece of Cra*"

Hope that helps explain it.....



(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 2:42:57 PM   
Crush


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Erm...

Anyone besides cyberdude actually read this thing?



Yeah, I always read source material if it's available.  I do hope that 889F applies, but often that kind of things gets "reinterpreted."

Edited to add:
Anyone who trusts a government to do what is right isn't placing their trust very carefully.  Best intentions lead to "reinterpretations."   Consider the RICO act (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) and how that's been perverted...in not a good way .    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act



< Message edited by Crush -- 11/30/2007 2:46:20 PM >

(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 3:14:38 PM   
Real0ne


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well all in all i have come tot he conclusion that the pendulum will have to swing to the point people have nothing and no rights and every day that goes by like this is the bloddier the revolution will have to be to fix it.  People rather than wise up will sing the party tune just like they were taught rather than take affirmative action.   Its like trying to convince them they have the wrong religion and only when they are standing at heavens gate to see a black hole will they wake up and smell the coffee.  Its mother nature at its finest and its being played like a well tuned fiddle.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 3:30:28 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joanus

The US was founded on the uncounts dead bodies of the Natives.


Do not derail this with a red herring. We are talking about Free Speech. Stay focused.

quote:


Your missing the point totally. I agree that one should be able to express their Opinion. But if someone continues to throw there mindless crap in my face  after I tell them to leave, and they use FREEDOM OF SPEECH to try to over ride my request Im afraid Im gonna have to exorsize my Thrid Ammendment Right.


If you are both on public property, you walk away from the person. How difficult is that? If you are on private property, you inform the owner or management of that property, and they now make a determination for which one of you stays. If you are on your property, you call the cops to escort them off. YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT.

quote:


If we must rip up and replace the old bush (hehe Bush joke there) and plan a new one them so be it. The whole country is held captive by the Freedom of Speech, just take a look at Tabilods  and such mediums that print slanderous and untrue things about people. Even in small town people are subjgated to similar atrosities. They Protect their self advacting ways with the Freedom of Speech.



Yeah people like Stalin, Hitler, Castro, Saddam, all wanted to restrict speech, and do. Do you want to model the US after some of these?

quote:


Things need to change for the better and soon. Histroy repeats it self Orion. Babelon, Rome, etc, etc, All reched a similar state that the US is in now. Military Might, Corupt Government Officals, Wide Spread Sexual Chaos, and Crazed Religious Fenatics they all fell. each and every powerful empire fell though out Histroy because of their persuit of "Freedom". Within the next 50-100 years America will fall from grace, there is no way to stop it but maybe with a little change we can put it off for awhile.

True Freedom is Chaos.

Joanus


I am quite familiar with history, and it repeats itself only if you do not learn from it. Silencing a population promotes actions of revolution. Silencing an individual, places the state before the person, and the US does not need socialism. I am not sure what you mean by fall from grace. Countries ebb and flow over time. Your wide spread sexual chaos and crazed religious fanatics made me chuckle, and realize this is not a serious debate, you just want to the government to silence people that do not think as you do.

Orion

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(in reply to joanus)
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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 4:15:34 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The whole "Violent Radicalization" does sound like a big issue. Who cares WHAT you believe, as long as you ACT civilized? This seems to say that Congress, in it's infinite wisdom, believes that in some what that BELIEF should be in some ways monitored and/or suppressed.

I'm not sure that's in line with the Framer's Intent.

What I *really* wonder, is whose little pet companies are going to benefit from the additional spending? And is the financial support of those interests REALLY worth the expense from the Treasury. It's been pointed out. We *have* laws to enforce Civilized behaviour.





I think Tom put it best when he wrote the declaration...
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Tom is saying that government does make mistakes and that they shouldn't be thrown out just because of one cause but only where there is a string of abuses. In other words, dont throw the baby out with the bathwater.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 11/30/2007 4:16:57 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 4:33:02 PM   
Stephann


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Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Again, I think the point's missed;

Nothing in the bill restricts free speech.  It simply creates another committee to monitor organizations who might be more prone to breaking the law.  This is something our government already does.  I agree, we should be protected against over zealous governmental agencies who selectively enforce when and how they work.  But this is still something the FBI and CIA already do, and (IMHO) should continue to do.  It's a security related issue.

A group that says "Blacks are evil and should be killed" has the right to say it.  The moment they go buying large quantities of gasoline with the intent of using it to kill people they have broken the law.  I expect our government to interfere at that point.

Stephan

_____________________________

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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 5:18:49 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

IMO, since there are so many different interpretations of what the bill actually says or does, it is poorly written and should be rejected on that basis.
 
pinksugarsub


As Stephann pointed out in the post right above yours, The bill is just about seeting up the committee. The bill is clear in its intentions and not ambiguous at all.

(in reply to pinksugarsub)
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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 6:03:12 PM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Its the skulking around through people's blogs, etc etc that bothers me.  Surely our tax dollars can be put to better use than snooping on the American public.  I also don't trust govt. to be ethical or even legal in the way they do things.  They don't have a great track record with that and I doubt its going to suddenly improve. 

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 8:26:49 PM   
luckydog1


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Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		All over the internet, intelligent people who care about freedom are speaking out against this extremely dangerous law: Philip Giraldi at the Huffington Post, Declan McCullagh at CNET's News.com, Kathryn Smith at OpEdNews.com, and of course Alex Jones at PrisonPlanet.com.   

After reading this sentance I think the posted article is full of shit, intelligent people like Alex Jones...Good grief

There is absolutly no ambiguity in what this law says, the full exact text is available.

(in reply to sharainks)
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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 9:45:02 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

Its the skulking around through people's blogs, etc etc that bothers me.  Surely our tax dollars can be put to better use than snooping on the American public.  I also don't trust govt. to be ethical or even legal in the way they do things.  They don't have a great track record with that and I doubt its going to suddenly improve. 


as well it should!

The feds have no constitutional authority to watch anyone! 

Granted the bill is not obvious, thats how its done in government.  The details and how it is implemented is subjective.  Look at the patriot act that makes anyone who dissents in this country a terrorist, and all it takes is for an official such as the president to say i dont like that motha fucka, and off you go to a wonderful overseas adventure of "real BDSM".

Oh and dont forget Alex jones is the enemy of all federal employees!





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to sharainks)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 10:03:24 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

As Stephann pointed out in the post right above yours, The bill is just about seeting up the committee. The bill is clear in its intentions and not ambiguous at all.


Right and that is all it takes to promte any kind of legislation they can get away with.  "after all its was passed by congress".  right?  Now all that is needed is an executive order to do whatever!  Then we are stuck with a several yuear delay as it goes through the court systems and even at that it never gets cleaned up.

Like many people on these boards who like to slide the definitions all over the map but where they are intended that is precisely what the government will do is take the definitions out to the farthest reach of the word and i have even seen them on many occasions invert the meanings completely.

That is the problem with this type of "non-limited" legislation.

ALL BILLS need a sunset clause and need to expressly limit the powers of government withint the bill, not the modularized 1 shoe fits all make it anything you want bullshit they have now.

That is precisely why you see people like myself and others pointing out how we are getting screwed all the time and exposing the instrumnets they use to do it.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 11/30/2007 10:06:17 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 10:29:57 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		But real the vast majority of Americans want to keep an eye on people like you and stop them if they actually begin to act on thier twisted beliefs.

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 10:38:16 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

But real the vast majority of Americans want to keep an eye on people like you and stop them if they actually begin to act on thier twisted beliefs.



Well contrary to you, Alex AT LEAST puts up his references for literally EVERYTHING AND EVERY POSITION he does/has. 


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 11:22:46 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		This is what I have been writing here and elsewhere. Yes, the law needs interpretation and implimentation BUT is a very large step on that proverbial slippery slope to the govt. control of thought...soon no crowds can form at all for fear of their collective thoughts. Soon the govt. uses it powers without brining any prosecutions...just intimidation and that will be enough.

We have long since reached that point that Thomas Jefferson wrote of when speaking of a history of abuses and venality. This admin. could have and should have been impeached once no WMD's of any real threat were found. This admin. may not have ever been elected...or re-elected. However, we still do have the ballot box. We MUST use it and overwhelmingly so.

This country is ripe for Orwell's 1984...we are now in its gestation period...soon we will see real organic (legal) growth. George was just a bit ahead of his time. It all starts with words...words in law and then the re-defining of them once there. First appoint judges (we are still filling vacancies-for life-that the Republican senate refused Clinton) to the courts...who buy all of this. Once the courts codify the 'new' legal meaning...the people are all done.

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 11/30/2007 11:44:32 PM   
Real0ne


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While i agree because people do not understand how the government was intended to work that is what i expect to happen as well.

What is supposed to happen is that the people complain to the representaives and they can start amending things hence rendering the supreme court moot.   If the supreme court is in fact the final word on the interpretation of the law then we have not been a constitutional republic of the people from the very day if its inception.   The only way we have a government of the people is if the legislative trumps the SC by vote as it supposedly has its authority from the people, hence balance of power.That said I would agree that once it gets codified the sheeple will happily follow along  Look at some of th eposters on here... they just happily follow along regardless if its constitutional or not.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 12/1/2007 12:15:38 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		It is funny how speech codes already prohibiting free speech in our colleges, and the idea floated by some prominent Democrats that talk radio should be regulated by the government doesn't concern you, but you will fall all over yourselves deploring a bill that if taken to a ridiculous extreme, might curb free speech.
When dopey thinking is outlawed, then you better worry.

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Boycott Whales!

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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 12/1/2007 12:39:52 AM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

It is funny how speech codes already prohibiting free speech in our colleges, and the idea floated by some prominent Democrats that talk radio should be regulated by the government doesn't concern you, but you will fall all over yourselves deploring a bill that if taken to a ridiculous extreme, might curb free speech.
When dopey thinking is outlawed, then you better worry.


E-String, Here! Here!
And it's not just the First Amendment that some colleges and unis are screwing with, any public school that is paid for with U.S. Taxpayer Dollars has no right to deprive people of their Second Amendment Rights either!
Carrying a gun is not a "privilidge" like a driver's lisense, it is a Right!

Crush, speaking of that "pc" bullshit, that reminded me of how people can manipulate it in either direction.
There was a scene in The Sopranos where the daughter asked Tony if he was in the Mafia.
He said; "That's a stereotype of the Italian People and I resent it!"
"There is no Mafia! I find that "Offensive!" lolol
(There's that word again!)

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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 12/1/2007 1:09:48 AM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

yah....

PC = {give someone a college education so they can get stooopid}


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 12/1/2007 4:52:49 AM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		I'm all about using the vote to change the direction this country is going in.  That means that we need to quit voting for someone just because their name is familiar to us.  We need to quit voting the same people back in office over and over.  If they've been in office awhile they are most probably part of the problem and not part of the solution.  That includes the people from your own state. 

I'm tired of writing my elected officials and getting a canned response that is totally irrelevant for what I had addressed.  Or getting a response that indicates their position and makes a case to vote their will in spite of your objections. 

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Is this the end of free speech in America? - 12/1/2007 5:55:01 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		As per any idea, political correctness has been used by a minority as a tool to wield power, but the original premise of political correctness was acceptance of others.

I'm always amused when the bigots and racists yell "political correctness" when their views are contested. Not that I'm saying you're or a bigot or a racist, but there is a whole load of unsupported statements thrown around when discussing political correctness (from the extreme elements on both sides of the argument).

In the interests of clarification, is your issue with the abuse of political correctness, or with the original premise of creating a more accepting society?

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Crush)
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