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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/20/2007 4:53:44 PM   
Lordandmaster


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The average age of Civil War soldiers may be impossible to determine; I've read estimates as low as 21 and as high as 26.  At Gettysburg, the average age was 21.  If you're willing to pay $25 to civilwardata.com, you can (supposedly) see data on over 4 million combatants in the Civil War, including information such as average age.

We know even less about the average age of "the kids" in Iraq because most of the fighting in Iraq is being done by private corporations who reveal as little information about their activities as possible.  However, since most mercenaries in the employ of corporations like Blackwater are VETERANS, I doubt very much that they are in the same 19-year-old age range as the soldiers in Vietnam.

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

www.thomaslegion.net gives the average age of a civil war soldier at 26 as well.

AFAIK- the kids in Iraq aren't significantly older than the kids in Viet Nam.

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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/20/2007 7:44:11 PM   
YourhandMyAss


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Well I can tell you the age of at least one person in afganistan. 27. My brother's been there last year and he's set to go again after thanksgiving, despite having shattering his elbow middle of october.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

We know even less about the average age of "the kids" in Iraq because most of the fighting in Iraq is being done by private corporations who reveal as little information about their activities as possible

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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/20/2007 7:59:47 PM   
CuriousLord


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I often wonder how many of these stories are resulting from higher reading requirements (causing test scores to be lower since the tests are harder) and the greater viability of electronic media (hell, we're all reading right now, but if we were polled on how many pieces of printed litature, such as novels, we've read today.. it'd be zero if we spent all day reading here, right?).

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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/21/2007 2:07:23 AM   
YourhandMyAss


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I've read a real book today, granted it was only a few pages, cause yeah I am on collarme reading other things and Iread when I step away for a few moments like when I go to the bathroom. but I did do some non collarme reading today:)
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

but if we were polled on how many pieces of printed litature, such as novels, we've read today.. it'd be zero if we spent all day reading here, right?).

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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/21/2007 8:57:56 AM   
kdsub


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We seem to be a good cross section of gender, race, and age I wonder how much reading for pleasure members of CM do.
Personally I read a minimum of one book per week. I usually read more than one book at a time…I’ll often read a chapter or two of a tech manual then a chapter or two of a novel of some kind. 
I spend at least an hour and a half each day reading…usually at bedtime.
But I must say reading has not improved my handwriting and certainly not my spelling or diction let alone my math skills.
Butch

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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/21/2007 9:37:55 AM   
gorgeous1


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I read books all the time. Hopefully, the reading of books will never totally go out of practice. I can't fall asleep at night w/o reading. Right now it's McCullough's 1776- damn good.

I have a 1st grader, and they are really pushing the reading of books. I have my son read for at least 20 minutes a day, and it gives me so much enjoyment to see how eagerly he devours the words on the pages and how he is learning how to not only read the words, but gather the information and then analyze it.

I do see how book reading could be on the decline due to the internet. When I first met my husband he was in the service and he didn't have a computer. He always had a book he was into. Now he does about 90% of his reading on the internet.

Hopefully, more young people will join forums on the internet so that they can hone their writing skills.

One thing that I have noticed is that I have no endurance when it comes to hand writing. I remember as a kid being able to whip out pages of hand-written notes and now one page of a form to fill out at the doctor's office and I have writer's cramp!

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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/21/2007 11:00:18 AM   
cloudboy


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In 1989 I was a TA at SUNY Albany and my job was grading freshman term papers.

Not a one of them was any good (out of about 35). Not only that, none of the students showed any proactive interest in improving their writing.

The best papers of the bunch were "not bad," but needed work.

To me it was anecdotal evidence of poor literacy of the freshman class there.

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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/21/2007 11:55:28 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mefisto69

The downfall began in the mid-70's with the advent of Whole language learning. PHONICS was ripped out of the program, and children began to memorize short sentences and were told they could then "read", when they were able to parrot them back. There have been two major modifications in US language arts since then....not much more successful.
Students were taught to 'be creative'..........spelling, punctuation, cohesion were thrown out the window. There hasn't been much improvement since the 70's in those areas either.
There has been NO imrovement in reading comprehension because the children canot learn to read. To compound the problem, current parents and yes.....current classroom teachers went through the same dis-educational system. Parents cannot or will not sit and prepare their children for school. Teachers simply can't 'get it'. Consequently, we have hundreds of reading specialists in every school system....guess what.......they went through the same system too,,,,,,,,,,nearly all of their 'reading strategies' discount the importance of Phonics. AS an aside.........every prospective class room teacher in the US only gets 1 (one) 3 credit course in the pedagogy of Phonics and are told to do the best they can with it.

Now, when the genius' diseducation leaders finally realized American students were tragiclly behind the ball in math and science, what did they do? Turn nearly ALL math problems into word (reading) problems......guess what? All that accomplished was a slew of NEW math methods, new textbooks and new Math-edubabble terminology. This.....for an educational concept that 95% of people DO NOT USE in adulthood.

Oh yes........math helps the student with critical thinking. Well, you should all be out tarring and feathering your dis educational leaders because THEY KNOW without a doubt that the formal study of Music/ Art does a much better job of helping a student grasp oblique concepts. Uh huh..in the past 100 years, there have been nearly 3000 studies performed on the affects of music on the brain. About 80% have been realized in the US. Most of these studies have been performed by Psychologists and Neuroscientists. They still haven't figured out the 'why' , the 'how'........but the test results show 'positive'.
Dis-educators discount all these findings because they cant pidgeon hole the results (yet)..............Neuro-science is still in it's infancy and time will prove their current results.

The bureaucrats also refuse to recognise findings of ETS......the company that produces the SAT. IE: for the past 40 years, students that studied a musical instrument ( or took art classes )( with a specialized teacher) and practiced each day for at least 30 minutes, consistently scored 3 to 9 percent Higher than the math and science whizzes ( combined) on SAT tests.

No human empire has survived beyond 200 years........and we are seriously on the downward slide.


Where do you get your information regarding education, reading, teachers etc?  Are you a teacher or a parent whose kid is having problems learning to read and it must be (teachers, programs, etc) fault out there.  Ever hear of guided reading, or are the only 2 options whole language and phonics?   You need to do a little research before going off about things you don't sound like you know much about.

Bold #1 - That is a ridiculous statement. Children most certainly CAN learn to read. Knowing how to read and reading comprehension are 2 different things. 

Bold #2 - Another ridiculous statement - maybe you "can't get it" but don't disrespect educators like that in one full swoop. 

Bold #3 - Absolutely wrong.  Have you read every university and colleges list of requirements? 

And as for math and word problems - that's to improve critical thinking skills and incorporate reading into other subject areas - it's called interdiciplinary teaching - try doing some research.


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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/21/2007 12:04:39 PM   
caitlyn


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General ...
 
During the American Civil War, the 'three R's" probably accounted for a very high percentage of the educational experience. I'm not sure the comparison is all that valid, until such time as we can read letters from the very high percentage of common soldiers that could neither read, nor write ... if you get my drift.
 
One could also point out, that with such a high percentage of the overall population enlisted, it would only make sense that many highly skilled writers would be among them.
 
I don't doubt that both reading and writing has declined. My cursive writing is dreadful. I don't doubt for a minute, that those that could actually read and write during the American Civil War, could do it more skillfully than most people today. To me, the real question would be, how many of them could do Calculus, use a computer, or drive a car? The portions do get smaller, when the pie is cut in more pieces.

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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/21/2007 12:24:34 PM   
Aneirin


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I agree that reading has declined, I see that around me, no-one I know reads books, I am the only one and I don't do that very often.The only books I really take an interest in at the present is the Gor stuff, I read them as and when I find them and when I do start reading, it is cover to cover in a short while then read again.

A sub friend wants to know what the Gor thing is all about, I offer books for her to read, but her words, she does'nt read books, so be ignorant then, as I won't help anyone who cannot be bothered to take the first steps in learning.

Writing books I see as an art, much the same as writing itself, calligraphy and the like, beautiful writing, a skill to be learned and a skill in decline.

I remember classes at school where we had to learn cursive writing, copperplate style, I remember everyone hated it, but to be able to write beautifully is another art skill.

I feel no-one can be bothered anymore, technology has become so good that we just get a machine to do what we want to do, the only skill is how to program a machine or in some cases flick a switch.



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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/21/2007 2:48:34 PM   
cloudboy


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The problem I have with LaM's post is that Ken Burns probably cherry picked the best letters, hence I suspect they amount to a poor random sample of civil war literacy and the avg. joe's writing skills.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 11/21/2007 2:49:08 PM >

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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/21/2007 10:20:20 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Sure, but the letters on Ken Burns's documentary are not the only evidence that writing has declined.

How about political discourse?  It sure as hell has declined.  Whyncha all reread the Gettysburg Address.  It's not long:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/gettysburg.htm

Do you think any American politician can write like that today?   Hell, not even their paid speechwriters can write like that.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 11/21/2007 10:22:27 PM >

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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/21/2007 11:20:41 PM   
NaiveTempest


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In terms of language, I feel that change is inevitable. I mean, how many people still really know Latin besides a saying here and a word there? So as language changes so will writting styles. And since more people are recieving an education, more people are writing. So to expect to love every book out on the market is unrealistic. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean no one else will. (My elementary school teacher would kill me for all those negatives in that sentence, lol.) Or maybe it's just too "modern" for you; time to make way for the next generation. In terms of education, I wonder if the teachers of today actually aren't being abit over burdened. Parents use to take a much more active role in educating there children. Now many (I'm not saying ALL just MANY) expect TV and the over burdened, underfunded school systems with underpaid teachers to take most of the responsibility. So many wonderful programs are being removed from schools (like Art and Music) because more is being pushed onto children at a younger age. I revisited my high school a while back and let me tell you I was horrified with the conditions of the building, the books, ..... practically everything. And it's hard to find someone to want to put up with all that and increased school violence when some of them might need welfare because their salary isn't enough. So where does fault lay? On the federal government that gives themselves raises but cuts back on the money allocated to education? The state governments that "borrow" money from their education budget to other state "programs"? The teacher that has to answer not only to the Board but to the parents and must meet all their demands with inadequate supplies and little pay? Or the parents, overworked and tired who are trying to provide for their children in our society and who may not have received the greatest education themselves?

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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/22/2007 12:11:58 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

People's WRITING abilities have clearly declined too.  I first noticed this when I heard the letters that ordinary soldiers would write home during the Civil War series by Ken Burns.  Most ordinary Americans today simply would not be able to write like that.  But you can even see a decline over the last 20-30 years.  Whip out a highbrow newspaper from the 1960's or 70's and see how journalists used to write.  But who reads highbrow newspapers in 2007?  Who still writes a real letter?  (And no, e-mail doesn't count.)  People are reading less and writing less, so it's not a huge surprise that their literacy is suffering.


L&M, I noticed that too about Ken Burn's series on the Civil War.
And I'm one of the people who still writes letters, to my congressman, senators and neices and nephews and they write letters back to me thanking me for the "$50 bucks" and telling me what they've been up to.
I grew up just North of Boston in the 50's and 60's and we were taught very well in the public schools then.
We were taught the "Rhinehardt Method" of cursive writing.
I have been told that I have very good handwriting "for a man."
Once while in the USCG I had to make out a somewhat technical report with a full narrative and the C.O. asked me; "Petty Officer "Popeye" where did you learn how to write like that?"
"It's very nice, we don't often see handwriting like that."
But, in those days we had about 50 kids in a class and you didn't get out of line or talk unless called upon or you'd get wacked.
On my wall is hanging my maternal great grandfather's U.S. Naturalisation Certificate from Feb 1887 and whoever wrote them out by hand had extrordinary handwriting! They're a real pleasure to read.
The Court Officer who signed it's name was, "Ales Trowbridge".
And, we always got books as gifts for Christmas or birthdays too so we were always reading. No "internet" or electric games in those days.

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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/22/2007 7:12:30 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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I have been working on getting my son to read more, and finally found a genre he likes to read, vampire/werewolf. So I have bought him all kinds of those books over the last year. Since June he has read 27 books, his grades were B's and C's last year, more C's than B's and often struggling to get the C. This year he is getting A's and B's, and having a much easier time of things. Reading truly is food for the brain.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

Americans have declined in recreational reading and test scores have also declined.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/19/arts/19nea.html?ex=1353301200&en=c5ef1aff4461609a&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss
 
pinksugarsub


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RE: Decline in Reading - 11/22/2007 8:39:32 AM   
cloudboy


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Have any of your slaves ever recited the emancipation proclamation to you?

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