RE: Partings and ponderings

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Partings and ponderings

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Partings and ponderings

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/18/2007 9:37:00 AM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.

Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.

To point one: I absoluteyly totally disagree. Submission is about serving..........if any Dom(mme) attempted to define there domination by power over me like that I would be off all......

To point two: my submission is natural and is already wired in...I do not need to summon it with an act of will or to have it summoned only by an act of will. Nor do I always have to act on it as it is psychological all of the time and acted out only sometimes.........

(in reply to MaamJay)

Profile

Post #: 41

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/18/2007 11:47:12 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

I dunno, I'll relate something that happened last night at a party. We were setting up and my partner was stringingl lights along a wall. At one point I wanted more of a drape than he was giving but we just simply couldn't communicate well on what I wanted. I said "Put the tape on the wall" and he kept trying to tape the wire to the wall. I said again "No, just put the TAPE on the WALL" and he again tried to tape the wire on a different spot." I said again "Not the wire, just put the TAPE on the WALL" and he finally did.

Now, I was stuck with doing something else which is why I couldn't just go over and demonstrate what I meant- this frustrated me and probably added to my lack of communication. He also kept trying to solve the problem of putting up the lights, rather than just following my direct order.

We all had the tools that we needed to do what we wanted to do. Everyone wanted things to go well.

But that doesn't mean it did.

I understand the girl was given all the tools, but again, why didn't anyone really try and see WHY the girl wasn't internalizing the tools? I knew exactly why my partner wasn't understanding me- and it was MY failing to speak his language at the moment that was at issue. I'm the one who wanted the change.

As with most things, it wasn't just one issue, it was a combination of factors which led to the ultimate problem. The issues in this relationship really seem to be much more about lack of compatibility, listening and learning eachothers languages and finding common ground rather than any real lack of desire or submission.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Profile

Post #: 42

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/18/2007 1:59:06 PM

Twicehappy2x

Posts: 1096
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I understand the girl was given all the tools, but again, why didn't anyone really try and see WHY the girl wasn't internalizing the tools?

Actually, everybody involved, including the girl, clearly understood why the girl wasn't using the tools provided. The reasons are too personal to post. Suffice it to say she was the one who made that choice.

This being the reason i seriously recommended professional counseling.

quote:

As with most things, it wasn't just one issue, it was a combination of factors which led to the ultimate problem.

I have to agree with this.

_____________________________

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Profile

Post #: 43

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/18/2007 3:56:41 PM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

This really sounds like a public "blame game" of "the girl" who is actually here and suffering from some issues right now and probably doesn't need to deal with her life being on open display on the forum. I'm suprised really that it is as I've always respected Ma'am Jay and that third parties are furthering it. Confronting her publicly for expressing her viewpoint on a post ABOUT HER is also not appropriate in my opinion. It's never one-sided short of some serious abuse or unexpected tradegy. Relationships are always two-way streets. There is no merit it placing blame between the two parties after a relationship fails, certainly never publicly.

I'm bowing out because this is creepy, with the best wishes for both of you to recover from this and the other issues in your lives. It sounds like tragic timing and other factors culminated in a sad ending for both of you.

best of luck to both of you,

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Twicehappy2x)

Profile

Post #: 44

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/18/2007 4:04:34 PM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

i'll second that....i've seen way too much dirty laundry on this thread...

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to laurell3)

Profile

Post #: 45

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/19/2007 1:16:59 AM

MaamJay

Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline

Well I started it with the intention of discussing the 2 bolded statements ... other posters kept referring back to the contextual information. I'm sorry it has got as personal as it has, however I (and twice) were careful not to name the person and she is not named in My journal, she has therefore chosen to out herself. That took guts and I have never accused or thought of her as being weak! I am sorry if you have been hurt in this thread camisra, that was never My intention.

I have been interested to see that not everyone would get involved with helping a sub make personal change given that they have expressed the desire to do so. Maybe I have too much of a rescuer personality too ... though I prefer to think that all the counselling of students that I've done over the years is the more likely cause of My desire to assist in terms of discussing strategies that can be successful. I think some of the issues involved here would be best handled by a therapist, but as twice said, that suggestion didn't meet with acceptance. I can understand that to a point as here in Australia, "therapy" isn't something most people seek out! In terms of the positive affirmation task, I had no intention of continuing it beyond a day or two, with the aim of trying a new strategy for keeping her in the side of herself that wanted (and still, I believe does want) to submit.

However, even those who said they disagreed with the statement as written about will, have shown by their answers that they actually agree that the Dominant's will and decisions are what they live by. Most have expressed in a variety of ways that submission is about giving your will over to the Dominant ... that the sub then doesn't have to keep making will decisions of their own, other than stay or go! That I totally agree ... but the point I was trying to make was, that the initial decision to hand your will over to the Dominant has to be, in itself, translated into action. Just saying it, or saying you want to do it isn't enough ... you actually have to do it ... which involves actions such as obeying requests and directions. That's where W/we ran into a brick wall at this time. I am aware that her health issues were doubtless part of the problem, to say I didn't take account of them isn't accurate ... within minutes of hearing that the operation would be needed, Master and I willingly and lovingly opened Our home to her to come and recuperate safely. However that also required her to submit in terms of listening when I said she had done enough moving around for the day and that was very difficult for her as she is used to being very independent. I tried to cut her a great deal of slack but not enough so she would seriously hurt herself by doing too much!

LA ... I truly believe I and twice listened as well as spoke. I certainly wouldn't share it here, but I do have a good grasp on why things are as they are, I guess I was hoping that I could help her live in the constructive part of herself rather than the destructive part. she is a lovely warm person, Master and I are still missing her very much as are the furkids, I want only the best for her. Nonetheless, yours was a very valid point and one that deserved to be heard.

Thanks all for responding to this thread. If anyone wishes to comment further, could they please stick to discussing their reactions to the statements and the clarifications I have given on what those have meant, rather than discussing this particular personal situation. Thanks!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to chellekitty)

Profile

Post #: 46

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/19/2007 3:04:16 AM

adoracat

Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay
However, even those who said they disagreed with the statement as written about will, have shown by their answers that they actually agree that the Dominant's will and decisions are what they live by. Most have expressed in a variety of ways that submission is about giving your will over to the Dominant ... that the sub then doesn't have to keep making will decisions of their own, other than stay or go! That I totally agree ... but the point I was trying to make was, that the initial decision to hand your will over to the Dominant has to be, in itself, translated into action. Just saying it, or saying you want to do it isn't enough ... you actually have to do it ... which involves actions such as obeying requests and directions.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

i was trying to keep to that point, but i know me, and how hard i am to get to the point sometimes. bleh on me.

when i first signed up to collarme, i was probably too soon past grief to do so. i'd lost my Sir in december, after a 4 month cancer ordeal. i'd lost my previous Sir to a sudden heart attack 2 years before that. that's really not a lot of time to "get over" those losses and try to carry on.

i think that under those circumstances, i was EXCEEDINGLY fortunate in not getting caught up in sub frenzy or finding myself embroiled (or emotionally skewered even) with someone that either was unwilling to deal with my needs/circumstances, or someone to whom i would be a bad match.

but i never lost sight of what was to me the foundation of D/s. and to me, that is as follows: the Dominant is the one with the final say, and the submissive is the one who obeys. now, obviously, there are going to be times where the submissive cannot obey, and times where the dominant is going to have to be overruled due to circumstances. "Sir, with all respect, there is no way i can do a backbend and fellate you at the same time. your submissve just doesnt bend that way any longer."

at the end of the day, the dominant is the one with power, and with authority. its how the relationship is laid out. also at the end of the day (and the begining, and the noonish hour)...the submissive has made the choice to cede that authority to the dominant. that's just THERE in the agreement! if the submissive says "ok, i'll submit, but only when i wish to, or between the hours of 8 am and 2 pm on alternate thursdays, whichever comes first" that isnt a true willingness to serve/submit/cave/give over, however you wish to name it. to have the whole thing work, the s-type has to commit to the constant agreement to let the dominant be the one in control.

having said all that, i also acknowledge that sometimes the s-type's agreement to let the domiant be in charge is to do *nothing*. there was a lovely note from a dominant on a group i am a member of, saying how his sub was ill, and he was taking care of her (flu issues) and that THAT was part of keeping his end up, taking care of HER and not just the other way round. its STILL a relationship....even if the entire relationship is based on bdsm and not D/s, caring would be "you're sick, we arent going to be physical right now".

as i keep saying, my opinion only, your milage may vary, all situations unless named are based on what i have experienced in my relationships and not on any others, and take the whole thing for what you paid for it. :)

kitten, who also understands that people is people and the hardest one to face can absolutely be the one in the mirror. which is why i dont look into the vile things before i am totally awake.

(in reply to MaamJay)

Profile

Post #: 47

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/19/2007 5:11:49 AM

exquisitefeline1

Posts: 69
Joined: 9/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyntilating

quote:

Neither of us set out to change the other. I certainly found nothing "wrong" with him. More than likely, if asked, he would tell you the same about me. But we both DID change and grew stronger and better through each others roles in our relationship.

I can't speak for your girl, nor anyone else except my own experience...But, an important part of my desire to please and serve (submit)is the knowledge that I AM pleasing and making you completely happy and content. Your pride in me and in what I am doing is very much a part of the trust and security I need to feel that my complete submission is completely desired.

Beautifully written. :)

(in reply to Cyntilating)

Profile

Post #: 48

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/19/2007 8:06:14 AM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

I have been interested to see that not everyone would get involved with helping a sub make personal change given that they have expressed the desire to do so. Maybe I have too much of a rescuer personality too ... though I prefer to think that all the counselling of students that I've done over the years is the more likely cause of My desire to assist in terms of discussing strategies that can be successful. I think some of the issues involved here would be best handled by a therapist, but as twice said, that suggestion didn't meet with acceptance. I can understand that to a point as here in Australia, "therapy" isn't something most people seek out! In terms of the positive affirmation task, I had no intention of continuing it beyond a day or two, with the aim of trying a new strategy for keeping her in the side of herself that wanted (and still, I believe does want) to submit.

if a person is a licensed therapist, just as if they are a doctor, or a lawyer, or any other service based profession that they must recieve a degree in to practice said profession....they have to walk a fine line in their private lives to not practice their profession with those they are in relationships with...a person in a relationship with a therapist does not want to be constantly psychoanalized by them, a person in a relationship with a doctor does not want to be constantly diagnosed by them, and a person in a relationship with a lawyer does not want constant legal advice from them....

yes, she asked for your help...but was she still asking for your help? or was she showing obvious signs that she no longer wanted said help that you were ignoring? had it come to a point where she just wanted help to get through what she was going through at the time, and forget the other issues she had initially come to you about?

i am not trying to challenge you, but asking you to take a look inside yourself and at the past situations and answer for yourself, not me...in fact, you don't even have to answer me...

good luck
chelle

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to MaamJay)

Profile

Post #: 49

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/19/2007 8:38:22 AM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

if a person is a licensed therapist, just as if they are a doctor, or a lawyer, or any other service based profession that they must recieve a degree in to practice said profession....they have to walk a fine line in their private lives to not practice their profession with those they are in relationships with...a person in a relationship with a therapist does not want to be constantly psychoanalized by them, a person in a relationship with a doctor does not want to be constantly diagnosed by them, and a person in a relationship with a lawyer does not want constant legal advice from them....

yes, she asked for your help...but was she still asking for your help? or was she showing obvious signs that she no longer wanted said help that you were ignoring?
chelle

I totally agree with you...but a few points:
A degree in a said profession doesn't always equip one to deal with every issue....continuous professional developmet doesn't always either and it is always a question of having a supervisor, the equivalent I suppode of having a mentor. My professional supervisor and my mentor I happen to know is a domme as well as a radical therapist.

Second: I think it is far easier myself to have professional relationships than it is to have private and personal ones......sometimes the more one knows tha more one knows one simply does not know....a friend said the other day: why don't you get a good therapist? and I said well I would if I could find one I trusted more than myself, and even I am just too damn expensive (jokingly).
And third....it's hugely difficult to separate out oneself into component parts and give up part of yourself....(say the therapist part) when actually a huge part of oneself is geared towards consolling, being empathic, helping, supporting and mentoring all rolled into one.
Fourth; it's worse being a therapist who does that and therefore practices someone else's therapy where we all know kink is, for the most part, still viewed as a paraphilia.

And finally, although I may get shot down for this, it's far more difficult to get advice, accept advice or even feel the need for advice when in a dominant role. And that is why I also agreed with you and disagreed with the original defintions of what submission were in the OP as they were given from a dominant perspective.

But basically, yes, chelle, I agree and think it's a very valid point.

Prinsexx xx

(in reply to chellekitty)

Profile

Post #: 50

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/19/2007 5:29:37 PM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

i agree with your points as well prinsexx....i just did covered the basics in my post, you got the details....thanks

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Profile

Post #: 51