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Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 1:18:17 AM

MaamJay

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Joined: 9/2/2005
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Sadly, the fem sub who has been under consideration as a potential 24/7 for Master and Myself has chosen to withdraw herself from that consideration, as she feels unable to submit to Me, or live by My rules. That extended from living by My chosen dress code to performing a positive affirmation task designed to help her break old habits and promote new ones ... and everything in between. While things were up and down while she was here as My journal indicates (and she lived with Us for 9 out of the past 17 weeks in 3 "chunks"), once she went home she abandoned everything. Now I don't want to get into another bitch session about the validity of consideration. Suffice to say it has worked here because that is the name We choose to use for the "getting to see if this is going to work" period! That's not the point of this post.

In My summation to her, I used 2 phrases about submission:

Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.

Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.

I am interested in seeing how many Dom/mes and subs agree/disagree with those phrases. They are not intended to entirely encapsulate submission ... for example, I would add that it involves more than doing what the sub always prefers. But I would like to know how many others would use similar phrases to describe aspects of submission. Over to you guys!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

Post #: 1

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 1:34:53 AM

chellekitty

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Joined: 3/27/2005
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completely disagree with the first statement...to me that says submission is about fixing the submissive...not every submissive needs to be fixed...and in my not so humble opinion, if they need to be "fixed," ie. getting rid of bad habits and gaining good habits, they should be doing it for themselves, not because someone is ordering them to...

and i kind of agree with the second statment....there is something that i hear a year or two ago....three frogs are sitting on a log, one from decides to jump off, how many frogs are left on the log? the answer is, there are still 3 frogs....a decision means nothing if you do not follow through with the action necessary to make what you decided was going to happen, happen....but it is not exclusive to submissives...

submission has to do with obedience...but not blind obedience...playing the devil's advocate for a moment...perhaps you did not convince her appropriately that what you were assigning her was true or valid or worthwhile...and "because i said so" just doesn't work...especially if she's anything like me...

thats all for now...
chelle

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 2

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 2:17:43 AM

julietsierra

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Joined: 9/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.

Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.

Phrase 1: I'd say that it all depends on who desires the changes. In my opinion, very few people ever change unless the change is something they want. There is still submission within this way of thinking. But ultimately, the change had better reflect to that person, something she can be proud of. So, contrary to the idea that submission always involved doing more than the submissive would prefer, I'd say that submission (when it comes to change in that submissive's life - including habits, etc) had better look a darn sight better than what she's being told she needs to give up. And I'd also point out that when people try to change people, the person changed really only ever becomes more of who he or she always was, and if the change you were requiring of her made her feel less of who she was before you started this, then it was doomed to failure. And all of that is the feelings of the submissive and has nothing to do with the intent of the dominant. So I would say that the notion that submission involves doing more than the submissive prefers - when it comes to personal and more permanent change - is a fallacy. Change had better make her MORE of who she prefers or it won't work - at least, over the long term.

I know that from my point of view, there's no way someone's changing me into something I don't like - even if that's what they call submission. So, while you may have been undertaking a process to improve her life (in your estimation), if she didn't like the change... there's no way she would do it - or do it consistently - or do it forever.

Phrase B: Let's see... I keep trying to answer this in an abstract fashion, but for the moment, I just cant. Maybe it'll come to me. Right now, I'm knee-jerking. And it's kind of silly.

"A decision of will" to me, means it's MY choice. She chose. Doesn't sound too much to me like she was exhibiting a lack of a decision of will. In fact, in giving you all a fair shot, she decided - in a decision of will - that this wasn't going to work. Then, she translated that into action by telling you that she was withdrawing from your consideration - and with respect to the whole notion of consideration - that she was withdrawing you from hers. Sounds about right to me. Both of you had that ability. She simply enacted hers. And she had the sense enough to know that after attempting this, she can't submit to you. Ok. There are lots of people I can respect as dominants and at the same time, never even be able to even contemplate submitting to them. Sounds like for her, you wound up on that list. I don't see that as something gone wrong or somehow lacking on her part.

juliet

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 3

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 3:00:25 AM

adoracat

Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

In My summation to her, I used 2 phrases about submission:

Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.

Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.

I am interested in seeing how many Dom/mes and subs agree/disagree with those phrases. They are not intended to entirely encapsulate submission ... for example, I would add that it involves more than doing what the sub always prefers. But I would like to know how many others would use similar phrases to describe aspects of submission. Over to you guys!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

in Daddy & my relationship, A doesnt really apply. the only "bad habit" we have found is my inability to see myself as others do. and quite honestly...the only change has been that i dont argue with him as loudly about it. i still have those feelings, i just dont say them out loud. so no real change.

part B... yes and no. my nature is to please and be obedient, just make the rules clear for me. i have problems with abstracts at most times, please, make the rules clear so i can understand what is expected of me. so once i know what is expected, for me obedience isnt that large an issue. Daddy also expects me to use my brain...kneeling, for example, is physically impossible without inflicting a great amount of pain on me. he doesnt wish for me to harm his property, therefore i do not kneel.

to Daddy, the submission required is "listen to me, and do your best to obey". when i cannot, i tell him and explain why....and he either changes the order/request, or tells me to do what i can, or tells me to do it anyway. and i do as ordered. sometimes i succeed, sometimes i do not. the important part (to Daddy) is that i keep trying, and dont just refuse.

i think each relationship is unique, and should be handled as such

kitten, your milage may vary, all other standard disclaimers apply, of course.

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 4

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 3:43:35 AM

camille65

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From: Austin Texas
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Aw J I am sorry things didn't work out, I know you had hopes for this. *bbf hugs to you*

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~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 5

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 3:59:36 AM

slaveofKaos

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Joined: 2/16/2007
From: California
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I agree to an extent with A because going in to a new M/s relationship and by sumitting I am saying to my Master or ok take me and mold me to your desires, teach me your likes and disslikes and how I can better serve you. One can't do those thing's unless they are willing to submit to their Master or Mistress and that means they need to be willing to and motivated to change.

I also agree with B. One has to decide to whether or not to obey and act on it. If one does decide to serve a Master, Mistress or both and they decide to obey it is then up to that slave to show through their actions that their willing and are able to do whatever it is.

So in a nutshell I completly agree with both statements. I am also sorry to hear thing's didn't work out and I wish you both the best of luck in your search.

_____________________________

slave jodi

(in reply to adoracat)

Post #: 6

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 4:01:17 AM

Cloudz

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quote]ORIGINAL: MaamJay

Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.

Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.

[/quote]

I tend to agree with you, in spirit at least. My submissive understands and accepts that destructive or unproductive habits will be changed into positive and productive ones. I don't think we formally spoke about it, although I imagine we did on some level. Regarding submission and obedience... I find that to be beautifully stated and completely accurate. It is easy to forget that it is the submissive's decision to submit their will and to take that will and take action at the Dom/mes direction.

My sympathy for your loss, both of time and effort, and of hopeful expectations.

_____________________________

Enjoy the Journey,
~Cloudz

"Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain."

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 7

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 4:10:19 AM

Cyntilating

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Maam Jay

[Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones. ]

Prior to my first relationship ( in this lifestyle), I had spent several years really making some positive changes in my life. Was 35 and physically and emotionally it was time. I worked very hard becoming healthier in both areas.
When I met Master ( not my first relationship in this lifestyle btw) and knew he would be accepting my submission, I felt pretty " put together" . I didn't go into it feeling like I would be changing badhabits or to change myself. He didn't try to change me, mold me ( groan at the term), didn't even indicate there were things I would need to change about the way I obeyed or served.

The fact is, once in the relationship, those things are exactly what DID happen, to both of us frankly..& naturally evolves through submission to a dominant (imho).

Neither of us set out to change the other. I certainly found nothing "wrong" with him. More than likely, if asked, he would tell you the same about me. But we both DID change and grew stronger and better through each others roles in our relationship.

I can't speak for your girl, nor anyone else except my own experience...But, an important part of my desire to please and serve (submit)is the knowledge that I AM pleasing and making you completely happy and content. Your pride in me and in what I am doing is very much a part of the trust and security I need to feel that my complete submission is completely desired.

I do not know how much different my experience might have been if I felt Master accepted my submission but wasn't happy with who I was nor what I brought to him to give. It would have felt very different tho'..certainly.

{Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action}

imo
obedience is a decision, as in a choice. But, as it pertains to my submission> it is not through my will that I obey and submit. My will and control has been handed over ( which yes was a choice).
so it actually becomes one of non-action. Acceptance and to acquiesce.

imo...Submission and obedience are inspired, not demanded or willed by either person.

_____________________________

Cyndi

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 8

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 4:36:15 AM

wisteriaV

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Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.

Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.
Actually, I tend to agree on this. Master and I specifically state no smokers or drinkers in what we are looking for. Therefore the person applying would have to quit smoking entirely and refrain from the use of alcohol. Smoking to us is a bad habit and we do not drink ,so its not in the house. Also, we have come across those that over time have bad habits such as nail biting, and refusing to bathe once a day that were habits we asked them to give up and change.
Second, you can be all talk and no action. Actions speak louder than words.

_____________________________

Every story has two sides , much like a coin and neither one is totally perfect.
If it doesn't float your boat, then don't get in the water~!

(in reply to Cyntilating)

Post #: 9

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 5:27:44 AM

Maya2001

Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

Sadly, the fem sub who has been under consideration as a potential 24/7 for Master and Myself has chosen to withdraw herself from that consideration, as she feels unable to submit to Me, or live by My rules. That extended from living by My chosen dress code to performing a positive affirmation task designed to help her break old habits and promote new ones ... and everything in between.
I also get assigned tasks, mostly in the form of writing assignments, one of the things my dom had to learn was to ask first if I would have time in my schedule to complete a task otherwise he risked setting me up for failure to complete or causing excess stress possibly in the form of lost sleep in order to complete or possibly resulting in becoming frustrated( I work fulltime, I have 4 dogs to care for a home to care for, need to make time as well for my parents , son and grandchildren, if problems come up I then need to prioritize my time inorder to deal with them and that can mean not completing tasks
once she went home she abandoned everything.
Does she live by herself or with family ... that can make a big difference. If she is living with family than she is under their rules, which may clash with the rules you have assigned

Now I don't want to get into another bitch session about the validity of consideration. Suffice to say it has worked here because that is the name We choose to use for the "getting to see if this is going to work" period! That's not the point of this post.

In My summation to her, I used 2 phrases about submission:

Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.

The submission has to/should come from within if there is to be desire to change, it is not something you can force with out the desire results in doing is simply for self preservation sake or if self preservation is not at stake the result becomes they will more likely walk away instead, you as the domme have to create the incentive and nuture the desire to please it won't come from bullying

Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.

I am interested in seeing how many Dom/mes and subs agree/disagree with those phrases. They are not intended to entirely encapsulate submission ... for example, I would add that it involves more than doing what the sub always prefers. But I would like to know how many others would use similar phrases to describe aspects of submission. Over to you guys!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

I should say I did not read your journal, just commenting based on some of my own experiences, because I was ready to just give up myself, I had a lot going on at the time in my personal life, and having added daily tasks to do was crushing me, they were becoming a a very weighty chore, that I was constantly trying to figure out how I could fit into my already hectic schedule where I was finding no pleasure in doing but after a good long discussion with my current dom we found some middle ground that both of us could accept. Sometimes rules can be too rigid, and can be frustrating to a novice sub who does not see a real purpose in the reasoning for them being assigned, or can even result in setting them up for failure.The tasks could be viewed as very dull and boring or maybe too drmanding/challenging/stifling for example giving writing assignments to a person who has weak writing skills but very strong artistic creative skills, which is a bit more my case, so now instead of 100% writing assignments I am doing about 25% and make up the difference in a more artistic manner with photography or video or create video montages set to music using stills which helps to make the tasking more enjoyable for me. I get 2 to 3 assignments roughly a week instead of being expected to do 6 assignments a week with a bit of flexibility for completing, which has resulted in me doing sometimes an extra assignment without being asked simply because I found myself having extra time on my hands, and they tend to please him more than the ones he assigned, because that is what submission represents a gift given freely whereas obedience is forced compliance but after a while if desire is not created where the person wants to submit and wants to please by complying than the obedience is going to eventually fly out the window.

_____________________________

Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 10

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 6:25:23 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
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quote:

Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.

Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.

I agree that yes i need motivation to break old habits and install the new desired ones. However the key word here is motivation and if i don't feel the motivation, well it just aint going to happen.
For me personally i think the source of motivation is as simple as i am serving the right person and therefore am motivated to be pleasing to Him in all ways. If the basic connection with Him isn't there then i think the motivation would be missing also.

A decision of the will boils down to much the same thing for me. Yes in a ideal connection my will would be translated into action. Sometimes though with all the will in the world the action just isn't there or cannot be completed.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 11

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 6:28:28 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

In My summation to her, I used 2 phrases about submission:

Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.

Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

Phrase 1) I don't think that submission, itself, has anything to do with old bad habits, new habits or habits at all.

Phrase 2) I think that to submit you follow someone else's will, despite your own. Indicating that you'd like to, want to, wish to, hope to..........isn't.

agirl

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 12

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 6:46:50 AM

MaamJay

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Interesting comments so far, thanks to all. I did say that these statements do not attempt to encapsulate the whole of submission, but may describe aspects. I totally agree that the only person who can do the changing is the person themselves ... that's why I said submission is about the MOTIVATION rather than the process or the actual change. In other words, if you know you have a bad habit and want to replace that with a good one, submission to someone may provide an external motivator to help encourage and facilitate the change ... much as groups like Weight Watchers, Alcoholics Anonymous provide external motivation to help people stay on the "straight and narrrow" or "the wagon". I would still see this more in terms of encouraging growth rather than "fixing" though.

And chelle ... I NEVER use "because I said so" ... I can assure you that all required actions were very thoroughly explained with logical reasons. W/we spent literally hours talking through things ... the most notable occasion was while Master was away, she and I sat for 6 hours straight ... neither of U/us even toileted, ate or drank! W/we did discuss everything VERY thoroughly. I agree wholeheartedly that "because I said so" can be a cop-out that doesn't work well, though I know some subs/slaves find that is all they require.

juliet, sounds to Me like you got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning *smile*, you are not usually quite so vehement. I didn't say that the changes were all only what I wanted and not what she wanted. On most if not all, she expressed the DESIRE to make changes ... where the second statement comes in, is that the expressed desire did not become a will decision/choice and was then not translated into action. In fact, you are right in that one of the 2 will decisions/choices that she did translate into action was to leave and that was her right. I am not bitching about that. The other was her choice to contact Me in the first place and seek to become My sub. I am not bitching about that either, I regard all such experiences as useful learning opportunities.

adora cat, I am by no means inferring everyone has bad habits. But if you do ... and your Dominant points this out ... hopefully your respect for them means that you don't want to annoy them with this habit ... so you will do your best to break it and they will help. An example from my sub side ... i used to rock quite a lot, totally involuntarily, i had no idea i was doing it. Master noticed (He couldn't fail!) ... and after i'd nearly bopped my boss on the head while talking with her and He noticed her bobbing around taking evasive action ... He knew He had to mention it to me. i was shocked ... how could i be doing something that obvious and not noticing? And why hadn't someone else told me? So i asked Him to help ... to draw my attention to it so i could try to stop it. He has, very patiently ... and after 3 years the habit has 95% gone. Apparently i only tend to do it a little now when on the phone (or when i'm dying to go pee LOL!). i am greatly appreciative of His help ... and other people have braved commenting on it now i'm no longer doing it! But to achieve that success, the bad habit had to be identified and a good habit instituted ... the motivation for that was both intrinsic (i wanted to stop now i knew about it) and extrinsic (Master wanted me to stop) ... He was my coach and helper ... but i had to translate that desire/motivation into action ie controlling my body movements when alerted. All the desire in the world would have been useless without translating it into action.

Thanks camille, slave jodi and Cloudz for your kindness. It's never easy when a desired relationship doesn't work out, but as I said, there has been learning all round and that is good.

Cyntilating ... the statement didn't mean that I was demanding her submission by My will. I agree that submission is inspired not demanded or commanded. But ...when a person states that they desire to submit ... that requires them making a will decision/choice to surrender their will and translating that into action ... ie actually doing so, before they reach the place of acceptance and acquiescence of which you spoke. It is that will decision to which I was referring ... taking their desire to submit and "putting flesh on it". Or to put it another way, making the power exchange, giving over certain powers (I wasn't going for all or nothing!), and then not continually grabbing it back.

Thanks wisteriaV ... the habits to which you referred would in fact preclude a potential sub getting through Our front door *grin*. The habits in question this time were somewhat more subtle, but the principle remains the same I believe. I also don't mean to imply that Master and I are "finished works of art" either ... We are both open to having an annoying habit pointed out to Us and being prepared to change. That issue was specifically raised and discussed with the sub and she had ample opportunity to do just that.

Maya, with the possible exception of this last week when, I admit as a last resort, I tried a new "tough love" approach, I don't think even the sub herself would accuse Me of bullying. I am a softhearted person who has no intention of becoming the archetypal "cold bitch Domme" that so many male subs seem to desire! Which is one reason why I had extended My "net" to include fem subs, I thought they might be less attracted to the bitch style and more responsive to My kinder style. As I have said, the desire was stated repeatedly and passionately ... the problem came in acting on that desire. I can understand the time pressures of which you speak ... this was not the case here as the sub doesn't work outside the home, is not studying, and is not subject to those sorts of pressures. There was no hectic schedule! The tasks were not arduous ... you have to choose some clothing to put on so why not choose that which Master and Mistress wish to see you wearing. you have to wash the dishes sometime ... so why not do them when Mistress wants you to (and no more frequently as saving water is an issue here, even if you might prefer to wash them after every meal) etc. The most arduous task was the last which was a positive affirmation task ... her own freely given statement of her avowed desire to submit which I then asked her to repeat each hour as a positive reminder of that which she told Me passionately she wanted to do.

I could probably add another statement here ... submission is also in part about deliberately performing actions that are pleasing to the Dominant. OK folks, go for it, still interested in more responses!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to Maya2001)

Post #: 13

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 7:30:44 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.

Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.

I am a submissive and I completely disagree with first statement. If the dominant wants the submissive to change certain behaviors, then the dominant and the submissive should negotiate this before collaring occurs. There maybe things that the submissive does not perceive as negative that the dominant does, and there should be a complete understanding of what will have to change before the collar goes on the neck. I am not saying that there will not be an evolution after collaring, but that the dominant sort should be very clear about expectations (as clear as possible). It does not make a submissive less submissive because she smokes for example, she has a right to establish a dynamic with one that will not care if she smokes if that is her desire to continue.

I was involved with a dominant for a couple of years that began to demand that I quit drinking coffee. We parted ways over this. He wanted a submissive that was not addicted to caffeine, I wanted to continue drinking it. It does not make me less than submissive that this happened, but it did make me unsuitable for him.

The second statement is one that I can identify more with.I would state that all action is a decision that must be followed through with, and for the dominant the same rules apply. Domination is a decision, submission is a decision... and either party can decide they do not want to dominate or submit anymore....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 14

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 7:57:19 AM

Cyntilating

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MaamJay
Your wrote:
{Cyntilating ... the statement didn't mean that I was demanding her submission by My will. I agree that submission is inspired not demanded or commanded. But ...when a person states that they desire to submit ... that requires them making a will decision/choice to surrender their will and translating that into action ... ie actually doing so, before they reach the place of acceptance and acquiescence of which you spoke. It is that will decision to which I was referring ... taking their desire to submit and "putting flesh on it". Or to put it another way, making the power exchange, giving over certain powers (I wasn't going for all or nothing!), and then not continually grabbing it back. }

I hope you didn't misunderstand my comment. I wasn't disagreeing with you, infact agreed with many of your points.
I was just expressing how I feel and interpret your statements in "my" relationship..
It is all I have to go on. I am sure you did everything you knew how to do and with much patience in your situation.
I am sorry it did not work out..That is always a hard time for all concerned. Sometimes with even the best of intentions on everyones part> it just isn't the right connection.

I am having a difficult week, emotionally...and hope I didn't somehow come across as arguing or negative in any way, so wanted to follow-up with this post.

I hope what others have said can help and feel like encouragement. It is how I intended mine to read as well.

warm regards
Cyndi

_____________________________

Cyndi

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 15

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 8:56:34 AM

LadyPact

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I just wanted to pop up and say that I'm sorry it didn't work out. I hope everyone came away from the experience learning something.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Cyntilating)

Post #: 16

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 9:54:43 AM

chellekitty

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Joined: 3/27/2005
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quote:

And chelle ... I NEVER use "because I said so" ... I can assure you that all required actions were very thoroughly explained with logical reasons. W/we spent literally hours talking through things ... the most notable occasion was while Master was away, she and I sat for 6 hours straight ... neither of U/us even toileted, ate or drank! W/we did discuss everything VERY thoroughly. I agree wholeheartedly that "because I said so" can be a cop-out that doesn't work well, though I know some subs/slaves find that is all they require.

i found it kind of funny that you chose that one thing that i said to reply to...because that was an after thought in my post...but since you did reply to it...if she did go "home and abandon everything" even after "6 hours straight"....perhaps you should have sat for a bit longer...because it sounds like she still did not believe you...or perhaps as julia has suggested, you will never convince her it is not a problem...i don't know what you are talking about...you have not chosen to share that with us, and i am not asking you to...

i was under consideration some time back where i was going to move in with them at a certain point and it was demanded that i quit smoking long before i move in with them rather than on my own....that was a deal breaker...i told them i would do it on my own....they refused to accep that...i told them good bye...i knew every reason to quit smoking, i agreed with them, we agreed that i would do it on my own time before this date....they changed the rules, i quit playing the game....i am not saying that you did this either...but...if someone does not agree to the rules or the premise...then they won't play...or they won't play when you aren't looking....sorry, its just how people work...

good luck...
chelle

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 17

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 11:17:11 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.

If that's how it works for you in that any submissive you would choose needs to have that motivation, then cool. But to suggest that every submissive has that as part of their orientation of being "a submissive" would be incorrect.

It certainly is true that you need the internal motivation and not simply by nature of being "a sub to someone" to actually enact change, whatever that change may be.

quote:

Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.

To me that's an excellent definition of discipline- something every human over 5 years old needs to cultivate and practice regularly. But not really so much specific to submission.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 18

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 1:20:52 PM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

On the flip side, domination includes the ability to help someone incorporate changes that will fit into their life, not are unwieldy and unworkable. And since it worked only when in your home, and not when she was in her own, with her pre-existing obligations, I wonder about how much you knew about her life?

Additionally, that 'here are 125 slave rules', get them all memorized and internalized in the next week doesn't work for me. If I'm given more than one at a time, I can't seem to handle it. I also can't walk and chew gum simultaneously. He gave me one at a time, watched to see how I was doing, made changes to help me cope, and even threw out a couple that just didn't fit.

To me, that's dominance. Anybody could give me a list of stuff to do, but if I'm doing all the work, then I'm submitting to a list, and not to a dominant person. I've talked to other women who feel the same way so maybe this is the difference between a female and a male submissive?

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 19

RE: Partings and ponderings - 11/17/2007 1:56:30 PM

julietsierra

Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

juliet, sounds to Me like you got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning *smile*, you are not usually quite so vehement. I didn't say that the changes were all only what I wanted and not what she wanted. On most if not all, she expressed the DESIRE to make changes ... where the second statement comes in, is that the expressed desire did not become a will decision/choice and was then not translated into action. In fact, you are right in that one of the 2 will decisions/choices that she did translate into action was to leave and that was her right. I am not bitching about that. The other was her choice to contact Me in the first place and seek to become My sub. I am not bitching about that either, I regard all such experiences as useful learning opportunities.

MaamJay:

Naaa...Although I do admit to my own biases, which I really really REALLY tried to keep out of the post... Unfortunately, the number of dominants I met before my Master who always wanted to change this or that about me, and always it seemed with little awareness of who they were dealing with or histories or potentials or anything like that left me with a bad taste in my mouth about dominants who try to enact changes in the early stages of their relationships. It was as if they (and this morning, you) were trying to change someone into being the fantasy person in your heads with no regard to anything else. It made me feel like the generic brand of macaroni and cheese on the bottom shelf of the grocery store. This morning, I had the exact same reaction and I knee jerked.

Of course it's not all about me in my relationship. Of course, I have changed throughout my time with him, but it was never approached in such a direct manner. We have a policy that above all else, we live in our relationship. That policy is that everything must occur naturally. He introduces something to me, I mull it around in my head, often fight the change and he never pushes it beyond that. I know what's expected. He doesn't back off, but he actively waits for that to happen. He's patient like that. And know what? Even the most difficult of changes have eventually occurred and been accepted, not because they were forced, but because as I came to understand them more (beyond lip service), I came to want them more. Then, all of a sudden, one day I realize I'm doing exactly what he wanted me to do and I never noticed, felt or felt resentful of the change.

The other side of the coin is that if I am unable to do something that is important to him, he knows where I stand and like your situation, possibly the relationship is over. Possibly not - depending on what the subject is. He hates forcing the issue. If he has to force the issue, then, to him, it's not submission and well, ... that's that.

Through it all, there was and is always the realistic possibility that I might not be able to accept his terms. That's why we did very little the first year we were together. It chafed immensely. But he used that year so that he could see me - all of me - before he started moving into deeper waters.

So, anyway, when I read that she'd been staying with you for only 9 weeks, in clumps, no less and that in a short 2 months and 1 week, you'd found she couldn't break habits that have more than likely taken a lifetime to ingrain, I was struck by how patently everyone was set up to fail - she set herself (and you) up to fail by agreeing to do these things with seemingly no awareness of what change entails. You set her (and yourself) up for failure by presuming that this could happen easily between the three of you. And when, of course, it didn't...one of the three of you threw in the towel. I was left wondering what would have happened if you'd have taken things slower, had more respect (not saying you have none) for the person she was and especially, more awareness of just how hard the things you were that you were asking of her, when she really didn't know you well at all. I'm wondering if she might have really thrown in the towel if she'd felt like she was valued for who she was, not chastized for who she wasn't, and why in the world the three of you embarked on this process if she had habits that were so unacceptable to you that they had to be changed within the first few months.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 11/17/2007 2:12:09 PM >

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 20

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