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Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to thing... - 11/14/2007 8:41:35 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline 		Just read a response from LA in the poly section where she made the comment that "a lot of slaves CLAIM they can handle that situation and then end up not being able to."  This was said in response to a discussion about a dom bringing in a second sub/slave without the support of the first one. 

I happen to agree with LA's comment and it got me thinking about other situations - not just poly - where a sub/slave "claims" they can handle it or that they would be accepting of it then they end up not doing so for whatever reasons.  Seems like no matter what the issue being discussed, there will always be someone who states unequivocally that they would accept it with a smile and a happy heart just because their dom wants it.  That's the subbiest/slaviest response, after all, isn't it?  Or....is it?

My question then is this:  Is it preferable to express total acceptance of whatever your dom/master wants EVEN THOUGH you know if certain situations ever arose that you would NOT participate or accept?  Or, is it better to be honest about your hesitation and then, IF the situation ever arises, then be willing to discuss it and possibly accept it?

Dominants:  Do you prefer a sub/slave to be honest EVEN IF this means not spouting total acceptance of anything you can throw at them?  Or do you prefer a sub/slave to assure you endlessly that they would never contradict and always do anything you expect EVEN IF that is not the case?

Subs/slaves:  How do you feel?  Do you know in the back of your mind that there are some things you would never accept but you feel you shouldn't express that?  Is is preferable to assure your dom that you would never disobey or rebel against anything they want even though you know some things would indeed make you do so?

In our relationship, Master would prefer that I express any hesitation or doubts I feel from the outset.  As I've said many times over, that doesn't automatically mean that will influence the final outcome because He ultimately makes the decisions.  However, to deceive Him into thinking I'd gleefully accept something that I would really dread and hate is lying and that is unacceptable.  He would rather have truth than have me spouting absolute, total obedience and joy in the face of something that I didn't feel I could handle. 

Just curious.  How does it work for you all?.....................luci


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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/14/2007 8:51:43 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Well first you know you KNOW you couldn't accept it, then you say you're doubtful but open to talking about it.  Those are two very different things.

Either way, masters want to know these things.  Preferably BEFORE the commitment to be their slave ever happens at all.  I know a lot of people skip those lessons, so sadly they must be discussed after the commitment is in place. 

It's also why when a slave says "Yes, I'll be your slave" that they know exactly what that will entail- I don't mean ever minute detail, I mean the character, scope and expectations of the relationship.

I can't imagine a slave flat out lying in a healthy secure long term relationship- but it certainly happens all the time in insecure disastrous ones.

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/14/2007 9:02:33 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline 		Very true, LA.  I wrote alot in the OP and still am not sure I really got to my point.  I guess what I'm asking is which of these scenarios is better:

1.  "Susie slave" tells her Dom/Master that she'll joyfully do ANYTHING he ever asks or expects of her hoping that he'll never ask or expect anything from her that she'll dread or want to really say "no" to.  Then, one day he does and she freaks. 
~or~
2.  "Susie slave" tells her Dom/Master that she always hopes to do everything she can to please him and meet his expectations and fulfill his desires though she knows she may have issues with certain things she could be asked to do in the future.  One day, he brings something up and though she is hesitant and a bit scared, she is willing to attempt to do what he desires and work through her issues and fears in order to successfully please him.

I guess I'm wondering what folks prefer:  adamant assurances of total obedience no matter what (even though that may not be the case at some point in the future) or expressions of truthful doubts and hesitations that can be worked on/through?  The latter is not exactly the stuff fantasies are made of, granted, but I believe it's what mature, stable and solid relationships are founded on.  Clear as mud?..................luci

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/14/2007 9:09:08 PM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Well first you know you KNOW you couldn't accept it, then you say you're doubtful but open to talking about it.  Those are two very different things.

Either way, masters want to know these things.  Preferably BEFORE the commitment to be their slave ever happens at all.  I know a lot of people skip those lessons, so sadly they must be discussed after the commitment is in place. 

It's also why when a slave says "Yes, I'll be your slave" that they know exactly what that will entail- I don't mean ever minute detail, I mean the character, scope and expectations of the relationship.

I can't imagine a slave flat out lying in a healthy secure long term relationship- but it certainly happens all the time in insecure disastrous ones.


I agree with this.  While things do change in relationship, if a Dom knows what his "vision" is he needs to be clear on that and his ideas and requirements in that vision.  subs also need to be clear if they fit that vision.

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/14/2007 9:10:15 PM   
liminalRapture


Posts: 181
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline 		I have always been as clear and upfront as I'm capable of being. I love using language to try to come to a place of clarity and focus. BUT, there are several caveats. 
a) I'm clearer with my desires in language than I am in real life.  In real life, the 'good girl' issue becomes far more visceral whereas I have intellectually gotten over my slightly puritanical tendencies on a purely hypothetical basis.
b) I have HUGE blindspots.  I started a thread recently about my absolute inability to sleep chained.  Now it never occurred to me that this would have been anywhere near as big an issue as it was.  When we talked about it, I was thinking "cold" and 'don't want marks to show at work.'  I wasn't thinking 'panic attack!'  "want to chew off my own foot," "acting like a dementor and draining all my hope and optimism and confidence." 
c) I don't like to lead with a list of "I won't...."  Now I would be open about anything, if asked either about it or about my limits, but I don't want to on a first e-mail say "I can't do a, b, c, ....z, aa, bb" etc.  I'm not here to play a game of gotchya where if I forget to disclose something is a limit (or don't know it is a limit) than it is fair game.

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/14/2007 9:11:21 PM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Just read a response from LA in the poly section where she made the comment that "a lot of slaves CLAIM they can handle that situation and then end up not being able to."  This was said in response to a discussion about a dom bringing in a second sub/slave without the support of the first one. 

I happen to agree with LA's comment and it got me thinking about other situations - not just poly - where a sub/slave "claims" they can handle it or that they would be accepting of it then they end up not doing so for whatever reasons.  Seems like no matter what the issue being discussed, there will always be someone who states unequivocally that they would accept it with a smile and a happy heart just because their dom wants it.  That's the subbiest/slaviest response, after all, isn't it?  Or....is it?

My question then is this:  Is it preferable to express total acceptance of whatever your dom/master wants EVEN THOUGH you know if certain situations ever arose that you would NOT participate or accept?  Or, is it better to be honest about your hesitation and then, IF the situation ever arises, then be willing to discuss it and possibly accept it?

Dominants:  Do you prefer a sub/slave to be honest EVEN IF this means not spouting total acceptance of anything you can throw at them?  Or do you prefer a sub/slave to assure you endlessly that they would never contradict and always do anything you expect EVEN IF that is not the case?


Even when things are testy, I prefer my submissive/slave to be honest at any thing I throw at them and my life is much like a Mardi Gras parade with various beads thrown at different times.  I don't expect my slave to ever bullshit me.

When I discuss who I am and what I crave and what I expect with a potential partner I hope that just don't say what I want to hear as I hope my vision is similar if not almost exactly the same to what I want.

Z-

_____________________________

"Flirting is part of the job description." DJ Jesus (Lucy Daughter Of The Devil)

Vanilla Official Music Page http://www.myspace.com/djzulu

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/14/2007 9:28:06 PM   
Ysabo


Posts: 21
Joined: 4/8/2007
Status: offline 		In my opinion, honesty is always the best policy. I can honestly say I would LIKE to do anything my Master would ask of me, but must also honestly say I am SURE I can't or would not be comfortable with some things. Just saying "Oh yeah, anything you ask!" seems misleading, and a Master who would ask to be misled, just to feel in total control is setting Himself and his slave up for disappointment and possible disaster. In my opinion... *smiles*

ysabo

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/14/2007 9:39:06 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
1.  "Susie slave" tells her Dom/Master that she'll joyfully do ANYTHING he ever asks or expects of her hoping that he'll never ask or expect anything from her that she'll dread or want to really say "no" to.  Then, one day he does and she freaks. 
~or~
2.  "Susie slave" tells her Dom/Master that she always hopes to do everything she can to please him and meet his expectations and fulfill his desires though she knows she may have issues with certain things she could be asked to do in the future.  One day, he brings something up and though she is hesitant and a bit scared, she is willing to attempt to do what he desires and work through her issues and fears in order to successfully please him.


To me, BOTH the Master and slave in the first scenario are in love with the idea of Ms relationships and the total surrender of the slave to the Master, but are unable to let go of the fantasy and get to reality..or at least get to something healthy. Granted, it can be hot when the slave says, "ANYthing you want!" But, in reality, how many people are REALLY prepared to do that?

In the second scenario, they are both in love with the idea of a healthy, reality based relationship and make it work that way. They are both healthy adults of equal VALUE working on a relationship (that works like any other healthy relationship) with a specific structure and a transfer of authority.

If a slave told me the first when we were first starting a relationship, I'd call them a liar. If the slave told me the first after five years, I might believe them...but only because I know that THEY trust me to not harm them...and I work toward that.

Master Fire


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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/14/2007 10:38:41 PM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline 		Dear god please express to me hesitation or inexperience in an area! 

I've zero issue with working together on feeling out that subject, finding what is liked and where the limits are... but don't start off lying to my face about things only to have me find out later.

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/14/2007 11:18:45 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		I can't say I've ever been with someone that found the pat "subbish" answer fulfilling and actually required transparency or the honest truth about how I was feeling about something.  I hope I never am.

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/14/2007 11:26:00 PM   
twistedkytten


Posts: 240
Joined: 9/8/2006
Status: offline 		When i first began with Master.. there were so many things that caused hesitation... even though I wanted to be a good girl...
Some of those things He pushed and tossed aside like.. well.. and with the the others... it took time.. lots of time, I know He will hurt me... I know I may not always like what He wishes of me...  but I trust Him completely.

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/15/2007 12:18:01 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		"Don't tell me something just because you think I want to hear it."  That's been a repeated edict in my slavery to him.  Tell the truth, not what I wish the truth to actually be.

Of course there are things that are going to stump me.  But over three years into this, I can not think of a time when he has sprung something extreme on me as a total surprise.  Any time we go to extreme areas, he has spent significant time working with my thoughts about it before we actually do it.  Even then it's difficult, but I've already done visualization exercises and lots of self analysis about it beforehand.

He does, of course, like to throw out different "what if" scenarios, to see how I respond to them, as a means to gauge what I think and feel about such a thing.  How else can he prepare me for it, otherwise, you know?  So, where I used to get lots of "Would you do such n such" questions, now that he knows the answer will always be yes, I get "How would you feel if I did such n such to you" questions.

Sometimes he'll ask such questions periodically, to see how my answers have changed.  What may have once been, "Yes, if you want that of me" may now be, "Of course!  I'd LOVE to!!"  Since often times his questions are measuring tools, it would do neither of us any good if I were not completely honest in my answers.

I think the closest I came to a complete balk was when I answered, "Yes, Master, but I will need your help in recovering from that, and I believe I'll need a lot of therapy as a result, too."  And it was true - I'd have done it, but it would have screwed me up a bit.

He knows with me, when I hesitate it isn't because I am thinking twice about it, it's because I'm considering how to process it.  When it's actually come down to performing one of these difficult tasks, the hesitation is usually a second or two at most, if that, mostly as my heart stops for a moment before I draw in some air to proceed.

I joyfully do most things for him now, but I don't joyfully do everything.  I didn't joyfully quit smoking, for example - I really really craved cigarettes this past year but I was not allowed even one.  I didn't joyfully sit at his feet and watch him eat a serving of cornbread, knowing it would bring his blood sugar up.  I didn't joyfully call to schedule a necessary surgery when he told me to schedule it immediately, even if it meant missing a trip down south with him. 

But most other things I am joyful about :)

In any case, I express total acceptance, but that doesn't mean I am not to express any concerns about it, too.  I am required to.

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/15/2007 2:05:29 AM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline 		i have a problem with agreeing to things i known i've considered and rejected before, and then having to backpedal and say -- whoops -- not really gonna go there.  My first impluse is to please, and if the Dom or Master shows any anger at my hesitation i sometimes will cave in out  of panic.  i'm trying to put some processes in place that will prevent this in future as it only ends up making E/everyone miserable.
 
pinksugarsub

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/15/2007 2:22:32 AM   
GentleLee


Posts: 88
Joined: 10/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci


Subs/slaves:  How do you feel?  Do you know in the back of your mind that there are some things you would never accept but you feel you shouldn't express that?  Is is preferable to assure your dom that you would never disobey or rebel against anything they want even though you know some things would indeed make you do so?



I'm not going to lie or to bullshit here. In the beginning (say 7 years ago) I did tell them what they wanted to hear. Partly because I figured that's what made a good sub, and partly because it fit my own fantasy.

Now I'm "older ans wiser". I don't lie. I don't bullshit. And I don't say things I know I can't stick to. (To anyone, not just lifestyle related for that matter.)
If I am not sure I can do something I am upfront about it saying "I will always do my best to please you, but I'm not sure about this because of this or that".
I don't say -why- because I want to make an excuse, but because I want him to get to know me better. Every little secret hiding spot in my head. And because I know that's what he wants.

Lee


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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/15/2007 4:02:25 AM   
soultoshare


Posts: 519
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		I am totally honest about my hard limits.....I will NEVER be a no limits slave for anyone.  There are a few areas that I know can never be breached, will never be done by myself, the mental trauma it would cause would make me run from the situation like my ass was on fire!

If my hard limits are unacceptable to the Dom in question, then I won't waste our time.  That is not to say that my softer boundaries aren't open for discussion.  After all, there are a lot of things that I have yet to do, or try, and I'd be nuts to deny myself the experience.  But honesty is the best policy, and if I can't feel free to voice my concerns freely, then there are going to be even bigger problems down the road.  The relationship is still a two way street, and communication is one of hte most important aspects of it.

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/15/2007 4:10:27 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline


I don't understand why anyone would say they'd do something if they won't.  I've had a few problems with that in the past.  A dom telling me that I'd do it for him and me say no, I really won't.  I tend to be very clear as I don't want any misunderstandings from the start.  If it's a deal breaker, well, then we're not suited anyway. 



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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/15/2007 4:17:17 AM   
Squeakers


Posts: 489
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline 		This all boils down in essence to trust.   If a submissive agrees to something she is not comfortable with isn't that lying?   Where is the trust?   We speak of it all of the time, we speak of communication, but we'd be willing to simply agree to something even if we were not comfortable?   I'd speak out. 

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/15/2007 4:36:22 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

My question then is this:  Is it preferable to express total acceptance of whatever your dom/master wants EVEN THOUGH you know if certain situations ever arose that you would NOT participate or accept?  Or, is it better to be honest about your hesitation and then, IF the situation ever arises, then be willing to discuss it and possibly accept it?

If I was advising someone else; I would have to tell them to go with the honesty approach.



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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/15/2007 4:40:36 AM   
MistressNoName


Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Squeakers

This all boils down in essence to trust. If a submissive agrees to something she is not comfortable with isn't that lying? Where is the trust? We speak of it all of the time, we speak of communication, but we'd be willing to simply agree to something even if we were not comfortable? I'd speak out.


Perhaps it's a trust issue, but more often it's an issue of either 1) not knowing oneself well enough to honestly know what one's true limits are or 2) wanting the kinky relationship so badly that one will say anything to get it, even if it means lying a little and/or withholding important information - like, "oh, btw, I'm involved with someone..." or "oops, did I say I was looking for real time? My bad. Cyber only."

I am speaking from the POV of female Dominant and male submissive. And both have happened so many times, I've lost count.


MNN

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RE: Preferable to express some hesitation or agree to t... - 11/15/2007 5:08:36 AM   
sammy7626


Posts: 89
Joined: 8/20/2007
Status: offline 		I've been honest to a fault I think throughout all my BDSM interactions.  There are some cases where I'm unequivacal, and say "absolutely not" and there are others where, even if its something I don't like, I'm willing to suffer through because he does. 

I think the best case scenario is the one in which the statement "i lurve you sooo much that I'll do whatever you want" never gets said.  At least for me.  Now, that being said, there are times where I can honestly say "for this time period you can do whatever you want and I won't object" and there are others where the general rules of "please don't push that boundary right now, i'll let you know when i'm emotionally capable of handling it" apply. 

There has been one occasion, playing with someone, that I initially started out with the statement "You can do whatever you want, my only boundary is..." and the Dom I was with said "ok, so I can take this candle right here (holding a tea light) and hold it under your breast and burn your nipple?"   I quickly added the caveat of no permanent marks or scars... To which he replied, "Be very careful in how you express your boundaries.  No matter how much you may like playing with someone, or how well you think you know a person you are with, you don't know how they are going to translate what you say in their own minds, and you don't always know the outer limits of their boundaries."

Its not a lesson I've ever forgotten, nor one I intend to disregard ever again.

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