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RE: Fear - 11/12/2007 6:29:14 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Allow me to explain, facing fear proves trust.

Not quite- facing fear and coming out whole on the other side proves trust.

quote:

Trust inspires love, surrender etc.

Not in my experience. Trust inspires...trust. The PROCESS of gaining trust can also be the same path from which to gain love and surrender, but it would be far too simplistic to suggest that they are a package deal.

There also comes a point to say "If you have to prove trust, then how secure are you really?" I don't want my partner to PROVE something to me- I want him to BE true to himself for US. I think that promotes fulfillment and good relationship skills more than "proving trust through facing fears" in the long term.

And which fears are legitimate on this path? I fear the day my mother dies. I fear my sister dying. I fear driving a car

Should I have to face those fears just to prove some trust towards my master?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 21

RE: Fear - 11/12/2007 7:22:20 PM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MidnightMaiden
…As I am sure you guessed, it was your comments in one of my previous posts that inspired this thread, thank you for giving me so much to think about.

quote:

Without fear, you might as well take away all my BDSM gear because I often mix fear with much of what I do to heighten the intensity of a scene.

I would like to respectfully ask ...

Your sincerity and manners make it a pleasure conversing with you. I hope your journey through love, life and BDSM is fruitful and rewarding. You and Master have my best wishes.

quote:

in the context of the relationship you had with the slave who went onto the bough without fear, how did you frighten her?

Let me count the ways… LOL
Your question does not entail a specific instance but rather a continuous quest to cross Masterism with sadism while I explore both mine and my slave’s emotional fears, expand physical limits, break mental boundaries and fulfill forbidden desires. I can recount one individual scenario (of many) that you may be able to relate to because you mentioned rape:

I hid my slave bound, gagged and in a public building's utility closet where there was risk of her being discovered. Imagine laying there bound in the closet, hearing people pass by and any one of them could be your undoing. Then you hear a set of footsteps approach and the door opens. It isn't Master... the man closes the door and demands you suck his cock in return for his silence. You refuse because Master has to give you permission for such things. You are naked, gagged and bound helplessly when he rolls you over and starts to rape you.

Then the door opens again and Master walks is saying, "well, if you won't suck his cock, then you'll have to suck my mine". ...you had no way to know that it was Master's friend, it was a set up to see if you would disobey and they had been guarding the door so you were really safe all that time.

[edited excerpt from: http://www.residentsadist.com/me-my-kind-of-bdsm.html]

quote:

Or was she frightened and just overcame it with trust?

This particular example refers to Tamara. Her capacity for empathy made it easy to work with her because she could grasp and adopt other people’s perspectives with ease. She would go faithfully into trust exercises and instinctively make the right choices by remaining open to her environment instead of closing herself off to it out of fear. She thrived on the connection, the bonds between a Master and slave and between a sadist and masochist like I do.

quote:

Does there come a level of trust at which you no longer need to or wish to use fear?

I hope I never run out of imagination or forbidden fruit to feed on. I thrive on the connection made while exploring. I want to see tears of joy, tears of pain, tears of love, tears of pleasure and tears from fear... I like it when they cry.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to MidnightMaiden)

Post #: 22

RE: Fear - 11/12/2007 7:46:54 PM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

Fear is not something he plays with. It's not something that inspires me to trust further, it's something that makes me retreat. But unlike RS, The Man is not a sadist and thus me being afraid doesn't get him off.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 23

RE: Fear - 11/12/2007 8:06:57 PM

Tigrita

Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline

The darkness I see in my Man does scare me some times, but I think that I love him most and feel most lovedwhen I see that darkness and feel that fear, because it mirrors the darkness in myself, and that fear is something that I crave. It is a primal fear, for sure, untamed primal darkness.

Some personal fears can have a similar effect, feeding into that primal intensity, but it is a fine line. It takes a lot of self-knowledge and knowledge and trust of eachother to go there, but it can lead to even more intimacy and intensity. For example, I'm very protective of my naive younger sister, and we explored a fantasy (only verbally) of him taking her the way he takes me, with me there and involved. Knowing that he is strong enough to express those things and not hold them back, take me there mentally, and that he could do it if he chose to and I couldn't stop him, is intense. It worked for us, but not a walk in the park, and a very fine line.

~ J

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 24

RE: Fear - 11/12/2007 8:17:11 PM

TheScrivener

Posts: 91
Joined: 8/11/2007
Status: offline

I believe there's a big difference between fear of the unknown and specific emotional fears.

Fear can be a healthy part of any good scene. What I would consider "Good" fear could simply be called incertainty as to what's coming next, or a fear of how far I might go.

That said, if someone is afraid of abandonment, or deathly afraid of wearing a hood, those are fears I generally stay away from.

_____________________________

"We are the facilitators of our own creative evolution."

- Bill Hicks

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 25

RE: Fear - 11/12/2007 8:59:15 PM

MidnightMaiden

Posts: 142
Joined: 10/22/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Your sincerity and manners make it a pleasure conversing with you. I hope your journey through love, life and BDSM is fruitful and rewarding. You and Master have my best wishes.

Thank you :) I try and be mindful, even online, my actions and behaviours are a result of my training, and therefore a direct reflection of Master.

quote:

Then the door opens again and Master walks is saying, "well, if you won't suck his cock, then you'll have to suck my mine". ...you had no way to know that it was Master's friend, it was a set up to see if you would disobey and they had been guarding the door so you were really safe all that time.

Please don't interpret my comments as a way of negating this exercise as an effective tool, that is not my intent, merely to illustrate where I personally think I would have difficulties getting into that mindset. I believe, indeed I would know with a certainty, that he would be outside the door protecting me. Therefore any intrusion by a stranger would either be proceeding by a loud scuffle whereby he was overpowered (in which case I would feel in very real danger), or I would make the assumption it was staged and not feel scared.

I hope Master always sees me as a challenge and never as a lost cause!

< Message edited by MidnightMaiden -- 11/12/2007 9:00:55 PM >

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 26

RE: Fear - 11/12/2007 9:44:07 PM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43
Fear is not something he plays with. It's not something that inspires me to trust further, it's something that makes me retreat. But unlike RS, The Man is not a sadist and thus me being afraid doesn't get him off.

I confess my perspectives are biased by both my sadism and preference for TPE. Your point is well taken. I can see how fear would not be the first tool of choice for many and was not trying to sell it as such. I was merely responding to the OP’s questions.

I should have included a disclaimer to that effect because I made my statements in such a ‘matter of fact’ manner. I hope this reply clears that up.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 27

RE: Fear - 11/13/2007 2:58:48 AM

littlebitxxx

Posts: 732
Status: offline

I have a question for both Midnight Maiden and Resident Sadist. My feelings are very similar to Maiden's...I don't fear anything, especially with my man. There's that old trust issue again. I very much enjoy edge play (breath, knife, whatever) but have found that I can't get to "the edge". There's always that niggling thought in the back of my mind..."I'm safe, He won't harm me/let me be harmed." How does a person (me) ever get to feel the edge if I never feel fear. I might add that I've never felt humiliation either, so I can't even fear that.

How would you introduce fear as a TPE scening tool/training aspect in this situation?

Thank you both for the wonderful posts so far. I'm quite enjoying the various viewpoints and thought processes they develop.

_____________________________

There is no such thing as can't unless it is followed by yet

It is the meaningless little acts that become meaningful in the doing.

The people that mind don't matter and the people that matter don't mind.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 28

RE: Fear - 11/13/2007 3:46:55 AM

MidnightMaiden

Posts: 142
Joined: 10/22/2007
Status: offline

Dear littlebitxxx,

Thank you for your kind words :) You posted very succinctly, and managed to capture what I was not able to. Like you, I can't find that edge. I feel a trust so deep that fear does not come easily. I was appreciative of ResidentSadist response as it was his initial comments that prompted my thoughts, and I am hopeful he has some further insights to share. I also welcome responses from other Masters also.

Humiliation I do feel... I still have pride, ego and shame about many things, and I enjoy humiliation play because it forces me to face this and tear it away, but I am not afraid to do so. There is an "edge" to humiliation play, that moment that you let go and submit, is very emotionally intense. It's not the adrenal rush of fear though. I don't know if anyone ever died of embarrassment!

So what do you think it is? Are we not able to suspend reality and immerse ourselve in the roleplaying? Is our level of trust so great that we just find it incomprehensible to fear a situation in which our Master is in control? Are we wired differently? Aside from the odd nightmare, the only time I have ever really felt fear is when my um's lives were in danger. A desensitivity to the emotion due to over exposure? (I started reading graphic horror novels at age 8). I've never feared dark alleys at night, the boogey man or a tax audit.

(in reply to littlebitxxx)

Post #: 29

RE: Fear - 11/13/2007 4:58:44 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43
Fear is not something he plays with. It's not something that inspires me to trust further, it's something that makes me retreat. But unlike RS, The Man is not a sadist and thus me being afraid doesn't get him off.

I confess my perspectives are biased by both my sadism and preference for TPE. Your point is well taken. I can see how fear would not be the first tool of choice for many and was not trying to sell it as such. I was merely responding to the OP’s questions.

I should have included a disclaimer to that effect because I made my statements in such a ‘matter of fact’ manner. I hope this reply clears that up.

Nothing to clear up. It was apparent to me from what you had said that you chose fear because of your sadism.

There are other paths to trust, the one he chose is perhaps slower but no less sure. And more appropriate to us.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 30

RE: Fear - 11/13/2007 7:26:12 AM

LATEXBABY64

Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline

humm facing fear (holding out a raw steak while swiming with sharks) does that work lol

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 31

RE: Fear - 11/13/2007 1:16:34 PM

littlebitxxx

Posts: 732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MidnightMaiden

Dear littlebitxxx,

Thank you for your kind words :) You posted very succinctly, and managed to capture what I was not able to. Like you, I can't find that edge. I feel a trust so deep that fear does not come easily. I was appreciative of ResidentSadist response as it was his initial comments that prompted my thoughts, and I am hopeful he has some further insights to share. I also welcome responses from other Masters also.

Humiliation I do feel... I still have pride, ego and shame about many things, and I enjoy humiliation play because it forces me to face this and tear it away, but I am not afraid to do so. There is an "edge" to humiliation play, that moment that you let go and submit, is very emotionally intense. It's not the adrenal rush of fear though. I don't know if anyone ever died of embarrassment!

So what do you think it is? Are we not able to suspend reality and immerse ourselve in the roleplaying? Is our level of trust so great that we just find it incomprehensible to fear a situation in which our Master is in control? Are we wired differently? Aside from the odd nightmare, the only time I have ever really felt fear is when my um's lives were in danger. A desensitivity to the emotion due to over exposure? (I started reading graphic horror novels at age 8). I've never feared dark alleys at night, the boogey man or a tax audit.

Greetings Maiden,
Firstly: humiliation. The way it is defined humiliation is the degradation, debasement or the making of one to feel shame. If my man (a Free Companion) were to do or say something, or make me do or say something, that is intentionally trying to shame or degrade me as a person, as my self, I wouldn't be with him in the first place. I'd look at him and say WTF? Back off, Jack. Within my role as sub/slave, even though I identify with such and it's part of me my self, if he were to make me do something to cause me humiliation, I see it is as just part of being a slave. If the actions please him, why would I feel humiliated? I feel slave's pride instead of being able to do it because he wants it. And, in my experience only, I have found that goes for anything that has been asked of me. In public or private. I have very few to no inhibitions, pretty much an open book to him...and no one else's opinion matters anyway.

Fear: I think you've hit the nail on the head with not being able to immerse ourselves fully into the moment. I did an attack/torture/rape scene with my XMaster and it was a hoot! Welts, bruises, cut lip, choke marks, sprained wrists (him ;), all kinds of good stuff. But no fear, no edge, just a good ol' fashioned wrestling match. He pulled a knife, cut my clothes off, did the threaten to cut my face thing, beat the snot out of me, choked me...and though I "fought back", I wasn't scared. He "raped" me vaginally and anally but by that time, I was so aroused...;) And yanno, ya can't rape the willing..lol. But no fear. None. I trusted him, as I trust my Man even more so, hence no edge.

Like you, I don't fear walking at night, driving alone, boogeymen, or tax audits (that's a good one). I am cautious, yes, but I think that is just being smart. I don't place myself in a situation that would cause me harm and if I find myself in one not of my own doing, I'm trying too hard to figure a way to control it to be afraid.

So, Maiden. I guess we're hooped. Finding the edge in edge play will be our lifelong goal, methinks. Unless Mr Sadist, or another Master, can come up with a way to help.
Best wishes to you and yours.
sage

_____________________________

There is no such thing as can't unless it is followed by yet

It is the meaningless little acts that become meaningful in the doing.

The people that mind don't matter and the people that matter don't mind.

(in reply to MidnightMaiden)

Post #: 32

RE: Fear - 5/5/2008 10:52:20 PM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43
Fear is not something he plays with. It's not something that inspires me to trust further, it's something that makes me retreat. But unlike RS, The Man is not a sadist and thus me being afraid doesn't get him off.

I confess my perspectives are biased by both my sadism and preference for TPE. Your point is well taken. I can see how fear would not be the first tool of choice for many and was not trying to sell it as such. I was merely responding to the OP’s questions.

I should have included a disclaimer to that effect because I made my statements in such a ‘matter of fact’ manner. I hope this reply clears that up.

Nothing to clear up. It was apparent to me from what you had said that you chose fear because of your sadism.

There are other paths to trust, the one he chose is perhaps slower but no less sure. And more appropriate to us.

Sadism can do that to a guy, give him a taste for fear that is. :)

All roads that lead to our goals are good roads in my book. It sounds like you both are very perceptive and I know you must be enjoying your journey. I've enjoyed this discourse and the perspectives it has brought to light.

Best wishes to you and yours.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 33

RE: Fear - 5/6/2008 3:58:08 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

We don't do fear play. But we're not into s & m so that kind of mind fuck/emotional sadism isn't something that would appeal to us.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to azropedntied)

Post #: 34

RE: Fear - 5/6/2008 7:23:20 AM

DominantJenny

Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline

I'm copping out with quick replies today, apparently. Anyway...

A little fear makes me all mushy. A lot of fear would alarm me and be Not Fun.
It's relevant that I am largely fearless myself (though prone to being creeped out and thus not into horror in any way) and tend to select partners who do not easily or often experience fear, so it's a rare event in my world. Anxiety/worry, oh, there's plenty of that, and I do like to give them something to worry about, but fear is a more sensitive issue. I keep going, but I get more tender.
It's a bit of spice...too much would be a bad thing, but a little every so often is quite nice.

(in reply to azropedntied)

Post #: 35

RE: Fear - 5/6/2008 7:33:54 AM

81song

Posts: 293
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline

Fear for me is in a way a door, its the unknown what is coming, pain? pleasure?

(in reply to azropedntied)

Post #: 36

RE: Fear - 5/6/2008 7:44:57 AM

pettingdragons

Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline

Fear ....love it....my fear of spiders....and such...well its all a part of my trust in Master not to hurt me....i believe that he would not place a poisonous spider on me for that would cause me harm but would be play on those fears....yes i believe he would.....there is something to be said about the mind as it switches from the Master that causes the fear to the Master comforting you from it....and all that adrenaline....

pettingdragons
**Master Dragon's considered salve**

(in reply to MidnightMaiden)

Post #: 37

RE: Fear - 5/6/2008 7:46:56 AM

Kirren

Posts: 580
Joined: 9/5/2007
Status: offline

I like to use fear before the session. If I say to kitten..." we are going to try something new today, and its something we havent talked about" as she is bound and gagged, and I look at her and smile..." Is that okay with you? Oh thats right you cant talk...how about you just blink...oh you cant...youre blind folded...well...make a noise...okay Ill take that as a yes." She knows I wont hurt her, she knows I have her best intrest at heart....she knows I will push, but not too far, and then bring her back down and shell be safe.

But the fear is the idea that she is bound, gagged, and blind folded and I am doing something she has no idea what it may be...and she fears that it will be more than she can bear. It seldom is. But she trusts Me, much as The Sadist up there mentioned, to catch her when the limb breaks....thats rare...but its pretty freaking awesome, because you can go to a whole different level...and see sooo many things.

_____________________________

Everything has been said before
There's nothing left to say anymore
When it's all the same
You can ask for it by name

Did I fail to mention...I am a BITCH?

(in reply to 81song)

Post #: 38

RE: Fear - 5/6/2008 2:10:34 PM

Lumus

Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MidnightMaiden

For Masters. How valuable a tool is fear in the application of BDSM. When you do use fear as a tool, are you preying on the sub/slaves personal fears, or do you use their primal instinctual fears to gain a reaction? As a tool do you find it builds trust?

Labels aside, I'll address this part of the OP's queries. Regarding the first question:

The pat answer: The value of fear is directly proportional to its inherent value granted by the ones engaging its its use.

The personal answer: Fear works for some and not for others. I have never personally gone out of my way to inspire fear physically; any 'play' I've committed involving acts which might be labelled as 'physical fear play' [autoerotic asphyxia, knife play] had different agendas than fear creation. Mental fear [suspense/fear through suggestion and unanticipated purpose] is something I inflict on an occasional basis, again with agendas other than fear creation.

The other questions don't really apply to me [see above]; however, I would note that fear can be used for more than provoking reaction or building trust. It can test boundaries, or measure them [used appropriately!]. Fear can also be used not merely to create an atmosphere of trust - it can then be further utilized, with the right mindset created and encouraged, to bypass self-imposed barriers that allow for further exploration beyond the initial intent. Example: a torture scene used to build tension, fear, and ultimately the trust-bond, may allow the submissive or slave to then be 'interrogated' or 'tested' [mentally and physically, respectively, regarding a limit] to confront things they would not otherwise. This application should ideally be used with care and clearly explained with consent beforehand [I know, that should be obvious...some obvious things are worth stating plainly nonetheless].

_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to MidnightMaiden)

Post #: 39

RE: Fear - 5/6/2008 2:19:45 PM

christine1

Posts: 6155
Joined: 12/15/2007
From: i'm headed to HIM...
Status: offline

mind fucks don't appeal to me in the least and emotional sadism has a negative effect on me. but then again, my experiences with both these things have been way over the top and in my book, abusive. i can't imagine a mind fuck or emotional sadism being good, but maybe i haven't experienced them in the "right" light. (major tongue in cheek there.)

i do have to add, i realize i havne't experienced these things with a dom that cares about me, and while i can't imagine liking them, i am willing to give them a try with someone who's intentions aren't to hurt me.

i have to admit that i can't make the terms "love and care", and "mind fuck and emotional sadism" mesh in my mind.

< Message edited by christine1 -- 5/6/2008 2:34:11 PM >

_____________________________

i am woman! er, godzilla! hear me roar!

http://wavcentral.com/cgi-bin/log/log.cgi?id=2856&sound=/sounds/movies/godzilla/roar.mp3

He's the "boom" overwhelming...

He is my Master, my lover, my best friend my everything.

(in reply to Lumus)

Post #: 40

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