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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/4/2007 9:31:45 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		The other thing that is being overlooked is that the government didn't stop the tards from saying whatever they like. The court found that the rights of the mourners were infringed upon by the tards, and as such the mourners were due damages. The only thing this ruling found was that free speach is protected from governmental censorship but it is not above the law when it violates someone elses rights.


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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 2:52:14 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-westboro1031,0,7191706.story
I guess only politically correct speech is still constitutionally protected?



State the difference between Civil and Criminal Actions, and the questionof Governmental Authority with respect to each type of Action.

Then you will understand why your question is meaningless.





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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 4:02:53 AM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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Status: offline 		im all for free speech....im also all for these morons being so scared of bankruptcy, they quit their dumb ass "protests"

if that makes me a hypocrite, so be it

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 4:04:39 AM   
batshalom


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Status: offline 		Good posts, Archer & fargle.

I add that freedom of speech does not mean saying what you want when you want, where you want, how you want, and why you want to say it, and stuffing the pile under the rug of freedom of speech; although the subsequent screaming your lungs out about your rights being violated when you have acted in an irresponsible and illegal manner ~is~ still freedom of speech.

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 6:47:15 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-westboro1031,0,7191706.story
I guess only politically correct speech is still constitutionally protected?



Speech that is Constitutionally protected against being held accountable for harm caused by it?  What Constitution says that?

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 11/5/2007 7:12:37 AM >

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 7:24:17 AM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		Actually, the problem with "freedom of speech" is that you ARE allowed to say whatever you want--as long as you can take the consequences! But people always forget that second part...
In Missouri, for instance, it's illegal to yell "fire" in a theater that doesn't have a fire--You still can, but you'll be arrested and charged and all that! (And no, starting a fire first doesn't make it legal, it just makes you an arsonist, which is already a crime!)
However, because of the "freedom of expression" law, they actually had to make a separate law that makes it illegal to videotape people (mostly women?) in a tanning-salon, or "other places where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy")
Who's to say where you have a "reasonable expectation of privacy?"
And maybe I should've posted this on the "political correctness" thread?

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 7:42:51 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-westboro1031,0,7191706.story
I guess only politically correct speech is still constitutionally protected?



State the difference between Civil and Criminal Actions, and the questionof Governmental Authority with respect to each type of Action.

Then you will understand why your question is meaningless.






If you have to pay for it because of a civil judgment, that speech ain't free.

I understand the difference all too well. My bone of contention is this: If I go to a protest and someone has family serving in Iraq, can they sue me for distressing them with my opinion? If these assbites were on public property then I do not see how one can sue for a civil judgment. This ruling quashes freedom of speech by making the freedom to speak dependent on how much you can afford to pay for it when someone gets offended by what you have to say

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 7:44:28 AM   
Alumbrado


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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 8:26:22 AM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		 The OP suggests that only "PC" speech,is protected.Which of course,is not so.

But it`s certainly telling of the folks who focus on others, for being so called "politically correct".

Usually and lately,it refers to the use of less offensive terms and symbols.

For example,referring to the people who lived on this continent (and their descendants) before Europeans arrived,as native Americans,instead of Indians.Another,changing team names from offensive titles like "redskins",to something neutral.To some,very important,to others no big deal.But to a few cry-babies,it`s simply pandering to minorities and wrong.I think it`s just being a good neighbor .

Conservatives would argue(and do),that this is all silliness,and meaningless.That it`s liberals, trying to pander to minorities,and that it`s only symbolic.The term "PC has kinda become a catch-all phrase,for all that`s liberal.

Not calling someone a Jap,or a towel-head,or fat,is considered by some,to be politically correct.
I just think it`s good manners.Not an effort to cow-tow or pander.

Another example of so called "PC",is the trend away from treating gays,like lepers.People who point the finger,claim it`s only being done in order to be politically correct towards gays,or some non-sense like that.

Again,I just think it`s good manners,to not use the "fag" word,like Ann Coulter,or call whole cultures "lazy",like Ronald Dumbsfeld did.Or  referring to elite collage athletes,as "knappy-headed hoes",like Imus did.

It`s not an effort to silence folks,or curb speech.It`s just being civil.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Another note,it just wasn`t the speech.It was the proximity.

If Phelps had done his protesting somewhere else,he`d never have been sued or on the hook for court damages.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 11/5/2007 8:41:03 AM >

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 9:58:35 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Owner, yeah, "Native Americans", wtf is that all about?
That would include anyone who was born in this country!
You and me are "Native Americans!"
They had a tv ad here last week for a big Pow Wow on such and such "Indian" reservation.
Not "Native American" reservation.
If the Indians call themselves "Indians" that's good enough for me.
I knew a few Mic Mac Indians in Maine and they always referred to themselves as "Indians."
I'm trying to decide if I want to be reffered to as "Irish-American", "Celtic American" or "Mick-American."

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 10:37:25 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		EDIT Wrong thread!


< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/5/2007 10:39:09 AM >

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 10:43:35 AM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		The specfics of thiscase weigh the rights of the greiving against the rights of the protesters.

Since the Greivers have really only this single opportunity to have a funeral and the protesters have years of opportunities to protest, the court found that was a significant factor to rule that the rights of the family greiving outweighed the rights of the protesters. additionally the Family has a limited number of places where they can accomplish the funeral however the protesters have an almost unlimited number of places they could protest.

That's what courts do they ballance individual rights against each other.



< Message edited by Archer -- 11/5/2007 10:45:47 AM >

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 11:13:01 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

However, because of the "freedom of expression" law, they actually had to make a separate law that makes it illegal to videotape people (mostly women?) in a tanning-salon, or "other places where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy")
Who's to say where you have a "reasonable expectation of privacy?"


....i'd say a 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is the baseline. Invading someone else's privacy must always have to be justified.

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 1:36:21 PM   
bipolarber


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Status: offline 		This could be one of the few places they could apply that stupid "free speech zone" crap in a way that makes sense. During the time of a funeral, cemeteries have a "bubble" around them of  a mile or so.

No one wants to restrict speech. But they can be held accountable for disturbing the peace, disorderly conduct (is there any other kind?) tresspassing, and public assembly without a permit... oh, then there's attempting to incite a riot, too. As any Chicago cop will tell you, if they want to arrest you, they'll FIND a reason to do so.

I'm sorry. But frankly, I feel that even Hussein had the right to being buried in peace.

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 1:53:47 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

This could be one of the few places they could apply that stupid "free speech zone" crap in a way that makes sense. During the time of a funeral, cemeteries have a "bubble" around them of a mile or so.

No one wants to restrict speech. But they can be held accountable for disturbing the peace, disorderly conduct (is there any other kind?) tresspassing, and public assembly without a permit... oh, then there's attempting to incite a riot, too. As any Chicago cop will tell you, if they want to arrest you, they'll FIND a reason to do so.

I'm sorry. But frankly, I feel that even Hussein had the right to being buried in peace.


OK, here we go.

THIS WAS NOT A CRIMINAL ACTION.

The idea of "free speech zone", "disturbing the peace", "disorderly conduct", "trespassing", "assembly w/o a permit" and "inciting to riot" ARE NOT, IN ANY WAY APPLICABLE.

The bereaved family SUED the church, in court, for damages.

The Jury AGREED that the Church, in fact, committed acts resulting in definable damages.

They made judgment for those damages.

THIS IS HOW THE SYSTEM IS *SUPPOSED TO* WORK.

We don't need Cops to do every little thing. This is a perfect example.


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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 2:10:19 PM   
batshalom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
We don't need Cops to do every little thing. This is a perfect example.



Thank goodness, right? It amazes me how much hate mail I've gotten on the other side decrying my stance "against freedom of speech" and now I am apparently on some kind of CommieWatch list. (Be jealous that you ain't me.)

As a journalist, I am not against freedom of speech in any form but I am all for personal responsibility and a decent amount of mental accuity. Hell, I'd tolerate a smidgen if a decent amount isn't available.

Just a hint for my ... eh ... fans out there: If you are holding a sign that says "You deserve to die," recent events making the headlines suggest that you might want to limit your picketing to your own funeral.

(And then go sue yourself.)

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 2:24:39 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The bereaved family SUED the church, in court, for damages.

The Jury AGREED that the Church, in fact, committed acts resulting in definable damages.

They made judgment for those damages.

THIS IS HOW THE SYSTEM IS *SUPPOSED TO* WORK.



what exactly were the damages?


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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 2:59:50 PM   
batshalom


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Status: offline 		The damages are ... eh ... probably a slow painful trip down Semantics Lane. I've been there and quite frankly it bores the hell out of me. The damages were determined by the jury and are named in the story, awarded to the plaintiff, and so are now moot.

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 7:44:10 PM   
FangsNfeet


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Status: offline 		If Westboro really gave a damn about free speech, then why would they mock the death of a soldier who died so all of us may continue to have freedom of speech?They want free speech but they want the rest of us to wear ball gags and be damned to hell for accepting or tolerating homosexuality. Damn double standard bastards.

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RE: Is free speech dead? - 11/5/2007 8:24:53 PM   
FullfigRIMaam


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Status: offline 		I agree.   M

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