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Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 4:12:20 PM

KnightofMists

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I recall in the Greek times they took new born babies and left them alone to survive the night. Their survival was a demonstration of their strength... a strength that was valued for the society they lived in. Today.. we have capitalizism. The stronger/smarter companies make more money and the weaker ones disappear in the dust. It seems this mindset of Strength in whatever form is wanted and valued within humanity... of course there is efforts to protect the weak but do we want to ?

What about our lifestyle. How many times do we have save a person from themselves... should we just let the wolves have them. Are we just enabling these individuals and as such making a weaker community as result... or are we stronger as result?

What are your thougths?

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

Post #: 1

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 4:16:17 PM

angelikaJ

Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
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Isn't part of the question why do we try to save a person from themselves?
aJ

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 2

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 4:18:37 PM

DarkDaddyZ

Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
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Do we do this with non lifestyle people in other parts of our lives? Sometimes the energy vampire sucks the energy.....sometimes they need to surf their own waves I believe.
Or am I misunderstanding your question and/or points?

Z-

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(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 3

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 4:32:54 PM

batshalom

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I see what you're saying, KoM, but it would be difficult to know where to draw the line at acceptable and not acceptable. There are broken people all over the place, D/s and vanilla, and until they figure out their specific weakness it's impossible to save them anyway.

Also, we all had to start somewhere. One usually does not do anything the easy way, by learning from others' mistakes - one typically has to make mistakes in order to learn, and sometimes the mistake has to be repeated over and again in order to be effective.

Unfortuantely, some people will never learn. That has nothing to do with D/s. Eventually, when you see someone repeating the same negative destructive behavior, in order to keep yourself sane and in order to (hopefully) allow the lesson to sink in, you have to take a hands-off approach and simply let the wolves eat. Hopefully, whatever gets chewed up and spit out can be reattached but that's not always what happens, and it shouldn't. (People tend to self-cull.)

(in reply to DarkDaddyZ)

Post #: 4

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 4:53:40 PM

Squeakers

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Joined: 10/3/2006
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    Good question, but me personally I am sort of iffy on it.   It depends on my mood.   There are those who sincerely attempt to help a person, but their help even though sincere may be ill advised.   What I mean by that is, the sincere advice is not going to be viewed as a good piece of advice by everyone.   Often times, in attempting to help someone they may be left confused by the vast amounts of differing advice they get.    The bottom line is, there is only one person who can make that decision to sink or swim.
I sort of look at it this way, I am me and however I chose to live the lifestyle is totally up to the two parties involved in the relationship.    For me, the community would be in a real time setting--and that community would be the people who He and I choose to associate with.   The ones we choose to associate with would ones who live their lives in a similar fashion as our own, not completely the same but similar.
Here on the site, I don't feel part of a community, persay.   I am part of a forum that deals with lifestyle topics.   I know I can block someone if they annoy me, I know I can leave the forums for a month and no one would notice, I could probably even delete my profile and never return and I doubt I would be missed or it would be noticed and that's okay.   On the flip side, I rarely notice if someone leaves the forums, I don't always remember people's previous posts and normally when someone collars or gets collared, uncollared and recollared in the span of a week and a half and someone points it out, I don't have a clue that it's even occured.   Because I have no personal attachments to anyone here, most of the time, it's really no biggy to me whether they sink or swim, I guess I sort of figure they will find their place or not.    I guess that sort of sounds a bit cold, but if I went out on a limb every time I felt someone needed my help, it would wear me out and be self defeating.   I'd never get off CM.   But if someone messaged me on the other side and sincerely wanted my personal advice, I'd probably take the time.

< Message edited by Squeakers -- 11/2/2007 4:57:42 PM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 5

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 5:02:46 PM

batshalom

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I don't think it sounds cold, Squeakers. I think it's very honest and forthright, and probably true for many.

(in reply to Squeakers)

Post #: 6

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 5:11:26 PM

denika

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Joined: 8/30/2005
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I think we all have moments in our life where we need a little saving, but like trying to rescue someone who is drowning, it's always best to know how to swim before you jump in the water,otherwise you'll just end up with two victims instead of one.

There is also that line, how many times can a person dig themselves into a hole and expect other's to get them out. The point comes where you toss them a rope and walk away and hope they figure it out on their own.

denika

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 7

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 5:16:08 PM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
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It is always okay to lend someone a helping hand as long as our motive is to help and not take advantage. Feeling unwanted can cause harmful behavior. One point though, if you go around trying to save everyone, you won't accomplish much.

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You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 8

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 5:18:42 PM

sweetnurseBBW

Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
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I think there are those that may need some guidance from others and then there are those that live crisis to crisis.

We have all made a bad decision now and then and I don't mind sharing with someone what I learned from that. Then you have the drama queens and kings that cannot function unless their life is in turmoil. I don't mind helping someone in genuine need but the drama queens/kings I don't really care what happens to them. May sound harsh but I can't and won't fix constant drama. It isn't my problem to fix the problems they have created themselves over and over.

People can only gain knowledge and insight if they want to. I can't make them do that. I don't mind helping but I am not going to be their crutch.

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Sir Pain's pain slut

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 9

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 6:35:40 PM

amiciaN

Posts: 228
Joined: 1/20/2007
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(using fast reply)

When I left my ex husband, one of the things I knew I needed to do was figure out why I kept making the same mistakes over and over, relating to both my relationships with others and myself. I knew *I* had to make those changes, but what I needed help with was how. That I learned both from my therapist (blessings to you, John!!) and from friends I had made within the lifestyle, including NChaka, who is now my Master. Yes, I was weak at that time, but I was willing to do the work to become stronger. It has become one of the things NChaka is proudest about-- I'm no more "the timid little mouse" I was when we first met online. At the same time, my submission to Him has grown correspondingly. In my case, being owned by Him was the 'help' I needed to overcome a lifetime of making bad decisions and merely reacting to circumstances (aka 'living crisis to crisis').

I know it's not popular to admit being 'weak' here, but the truth of the matter is that I was weak. I managed, but not well. I'm still not 'done', but I'm in a far better place now than I have ever been in my life. And it IS because one strong Man saw something of worth in me, claimed me as His, and proceeded to bring forth what He saw within me. I no longer merely survive, I live and thrive under His care and guidance. For that, I will be eternally grateful. Thank You Master, all ways and always.

_____________________________

NChaka's amicia

I have never been lifted so high as when I kneel at His feet.

(in reply to sweetnurseBBW)

Post #: 10

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 6:54:47 PM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I recall in the Greek times they took new born babies and left them alone to survive the night. Their survival was a demonstration of their strength... a strength that was valued for the society they lived in. Today.. we have capitalizism. The stronger/smarter companies make more money and the weaker ones disappear in the dust. It seems this mindset of Strength in whatever form is wanted and valued within humanity... of course there is efforts to protect the weak but do we want to ?

What about our lifestyle. How many times do we have save a person from themselves... should we just let the wolves have them. Are we just enabling these individuals and as such making a weaker community as result... or are we stronger as result?

What are your thougths?

I am sorry but I am really trying to understand what exactly you are asking?
Should we interfer with the lives of others so that they may not make mistakes that WE perceive as mistakes?
Or should we step in when asked to and take control so that a person will not make a mistake?

Confused a bit...

and darn it, but I don't like confusion

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If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 11

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 6:58:43 PM

heartcream

Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
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Leaving a baby alone will not make it stronger. It will catapult it into it's Reptilian brain function taking over. Likely that infant, left all alone and un-bonded would become a remote and unreachable person in many ways, possibly incapable of feeling trust for another. In infancy certain chemicals are activated in the Mother and child, Oxyticyn or something like that. In those precious hours that this chemical reaction is present it is imperative that the Mother and child be intimate and together. If this happens the child will be able to be governed by it's Limbic brain system, which is a much more relaxed, open and trusting state to be in. The individual is more resilient to outside forces and infuences, they are chill within, not always on guard, throughout the rest of it's life.

In my opinion if you can genuinely, 'save' someone well why not? It would only help them to be more relaxed, happy and confident. Trying to save people can also be a kind of distraction and may not really produce a good result. I say use your guts to make the right choice. Saving each other could be fun and freely given if you can and you feel like it. I have friends who have 'saved' me from time to time, usually in the form of information, acceptance, warmth and recognition.

< Message edited by heartcream -- 11/2/2007 6:59:30 PM >

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(in reply to amiciaN)

Post #: 12

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 7:07:21 PM

RRafe

Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I recall in the Greek times they took new born babies and left them alone to survive the night. Their survival was a demonstration of their strength... a strength that was valued for the society they lived in. Today.. we have capitalizism. The stronger/smarter companies make more money and the weaker ones disappear in the dust. It seems this mindset of Strength in whatever form is wanted and valued within humanity... of course there is efforts to protect the weak but do we want to ?

What about our lifestyle. How many times do we have save a person from themselves... should we just let the wolves have them. Are we just enabling these individuals and as such making a weaker community as result... or are we stronger as result?

What are your thougths?

Compassion is best given to those who will not waste it.

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 13

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 7:18:27 PM

chiaThePet

Posts: 2694
Joined: 2/4/2007
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Yeah, sure, like I'm supposed to come up with something all profound and such
with you sitting there all Dom and debonaire, damn you anyway.

I'm weak, I'm weak, you wolf, damn you anyway.

chia* (the pet)

_____________________________

Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 14

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 7:19:43 PM

bipolarber

Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
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Just a reminder: Enron.

The Great Document states: "..all men are created equal" But not all of them stay that way. Each is released into the pond of social Darwinisim, and those that have the drive to succeed, and who have the skills, and the good luck... just might prosper. It's a great idea, but we tend to forget that there are those who don't want everyone to have an equal chance. Bigots, sexists, people of one religion or another, or of one political stripe or another... All of them have tried to load the dice to favor themselves. As such, a lot of those people you talk about needing "saving" are those who have been screwed over by the extremist jerks.

History is filled with examples of people whom many would have considered "weak" but who have changed the course of civilization for the better. Ben Franklin was considered a joke to most Europeans, Robert Goddard fought with TB for most of his life, Oscar Wilde was persecuted as a gay man, Edgar Allen Poe was constantly sickly due to his allergy to alcohol. Lucikily, they were not "left to the wolves." Well, for the most part... we also have many, many tales of unappreciated genius.

Frankly, I'm sick when I think of how many truly great minds we've lost over the centuries, to the stupidity of the dominant culture thinking them to be "weak" because their skin color was different, because they were the wrong sex, because they worshipped a different God-image than they did...

As far as the lifestyle goes: like every other human endevor, there are layer and layers of nonsense and stupidity that you have to wade through. If you start trying to save others, you'll be trying to empty the sea with a teaspoon. Other than simply voicing your viewpoint, I wouldn't worry about it. Good ideas survive, and the bad ones will slowly fade away. But when you try to take on an idea, head on, that you think is bad, it becomes like wrasslin' with a pig: you get dirty, the pig likes it, and nothing really gets accomplished. (Believe me, I've had some recent experience with this.)

Just take care of yourself, and those immediately around you.

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 15

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 7:24:41 PM

TreasureKY

Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

What about our lifestyle. How many times do we have save a person from themselves... should we just let the wolves have them. Are we just enabling these individuals and as such making a weaker community as result... or are we stronger as result?

Interesting question, Knight. I'm sure others have said very much the same thing, but I don't think offering advice is really "saving" someone. If a "weak" individual can truly be helped enough by advice, then I think it shows that they truly weren't weak to begin with. A great portion of strength is the ability to recognize a solution, regardless of the source (be it through internal analysis or by advice given), and an even greater portion is being able to implement the changes necessary to correct or move beyond the problem.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 16

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 7:29:50 PM

sammy7626

Posts: 89
Joined: 8/20/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

It seems this mindset of Strength in whatever form is wanted and valued within humanity... of course there is efforts to protect the weak but do we want to ?

I think the group desire comes from a kind of socialistic type of mentality...if we don't save the weak, we're somehow less human, because we don't care. To me though, this seems a bit ass backward, because repeatedly saving the weak only allows them to continue to be weak.

Now, that doesn't mean that I'm willing to just let people suffer either. I think some of those that appear weak within our society, aren't necessarily, they simply haven't had the opportunity to gain their true strength. In that regard, I think that everyone deserves and hand up once...but beyond that, I don't think we, as humans, have any more responsibility to weaker people (be they mentally, emotionally or physically weaker) than that. Give them one situation in which you and they know that they can make it, and if they still fail, thats on them.

quote:

What about our lifestyle. How many times do we have save a person from themselves... should we just let the wolves have them. Are we just enabling these individuals and as such making a weaker community as result... or are we stronger as result?

What are your thougths?

I'm assuming here you mean the community at large, and this is a double edged sword in some ways. On the one hand, you can just let them go and let the wolves have at them, but at what cost? Because allowing them to go to the wolves (assuming here the wolves would be those who would take advantage of the weak or abuse them), allows for the opportunity for those outside the community to look upon the community at large as monsters.

On the other hand, constantly saving the dwama queens from themselves gets old, and sooner or later its best to let them to the wolves, if for no other reason than a pointed lesson in reality...and if they survive it, great, hopefully they find their strength, if not...they're proven for weaklings and will hopefully back away from the community on their own.

< Message edited by sammy7626 -- 11/2/2007 7:30:47 PM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 17

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 7:36:54 PM

insistentone

Posts: 21
Joined: 7/17/2007
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In the wider society protecting the stupid and the weak is a sign of civility. It is true that this protection promotes or at least preserves individuals who weaken the group, but cultured societies choose to spend capital on this project anyway. We do it because we are strong enough to do it, and out of compassion for the unfortunates.

In BDSM we do it primarily for group preservation. BDSM exists only because the majority allow it to exist. If individuals were routinely chewwed up and harmed by the lifestyle consent for the lifestyle would vanish, it would be harassed and driven underground..... again.

(in reply to chiaThePet)

Post #: 18

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 7:45:50 PM

RRafe

Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: insistentone

In the wider society protecting the stupid and the weak is a sign of civility. It is true that this protection promotes or at least preserves individuals who weaken the group, but cultured societies choose to spend capital on this project anyway. We do it because we are strong enough to do it, and out of compassion for the unfortunates.

In BDSM we do it primarily for group preservation. BDSM exists only because the majority allow it to exist. If individuals were routinely chewwed up and harmed by the lifestyle consent for the lifestyle would vanish, it would be harassed and driven underground..... again.

Exactly. If we encourage things like stupid tops-how long do you think it would be before legislators would take action to make it illegal? We have enough negative press over things like this already-we really don't need more. So we warn each other, and drive off such sorts-hopefully-before they do too much damage.

< Message edited by RRafe -- 11/2/2007 7:46:57 PM >

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

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Post #: 19

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... - 11/2/2007 8:08:46 PM

insistentone

Posts: 21
Joined: 7/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Exactly. If we encourage things like stupid tops-how long do you think it would be before legislators would take action to make it illegal? We have enough negative press over things like this already-we really don't need more. So we warn each other, and drive off such sorts-hopefully-before they do too much damage.

So instead the BDSM authority groups get so obsessive and strident about safety that they are the equivalent of the DARE program. It is not a good thing to tell the inexperienced that the world will come to an end if they don't do as they are told, if they latter go the other way and decide that those who lectured them were full of sh#t. Which is pretty much where we are with the whole SSC and RACK business, where those who have been around awhile largely ignore the standards because their life experience has taught them that they are not valid. It also assures that these same authority's the cried on about safety will not be taken seriously ever again about anything else either.

BDSM protecting against attack from the wider society also weakens BDSM.

(in reply to RRafe)

Post #: 20

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