RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/28/2007 5:10:18 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I’m all for finding better ways to control uncooperative suspects…BUT…

Bottom line when told to stop…stop… when told to get down…get down… when told to drop it…drop it…

Sounds to me like this Polish bloke was simply trying to enter a country.....it's hard to see why he qualifies as an uncooperative suspect.

Bottom line...when the police tell someone to balance a ball on their nose like a seal......should he/she just get stuck into it and serve up a few tricks?.....the police could even pat them on the head before sending then on their way.

Bottom line....innocent until proven guilty....and walking through an airport is no admission of guilt. If that's what stands for "suspect" these days, then the climate of fear has done it's job.

It's ironic that the English speaking countries, so passionate about individual liberty, are taking on board the worst aspects of totalitarianism.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/28/2007 7:15:37 AM

kdsub

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Oh I agree with you NorthernGent ...I'm not talking about the right or wrong in that incident…what a tragedy… heads should roll. What I am saying it was poor training not the taser that was the problem. Those idiots most likely would have used a Glock22 if they did not have the taser.

All weapons are dangerous and should be thought of that way. For the vast majority of people the tasers are not lethal but I’ll guarantee you the Glock with a .40 round is.
It can not be ignored that in some situations the taser can kill and there needs to be more training in their use. But if police do not have the option of the taser they will start using their guns.
Butch

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/28/2007 7:35:03 AM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

kdsub:

Please explain how the use of tasers saves more lives than the non-use of tasers. Are you actually suggesting that if the police didn't have ready access to a supposedly non-lethal weapon that they would have to resort to using their guns more? Shooting to kill?

Yeah, no holes in that logic or anything...

I think the subtext here is that the police are using their weapons (lethal, non-lethal, etc) altogether too frequently. Full stop.

I'm not sure that it makes sense to arm ANY non-military citizens with anything more lethal than a truncheon.

SugarMyChurro...I'm glad we are talking again.

None of us here have before and after statistics on the lethal use of force before the advent of the taser. But yes I do believe guns were used more often before there was another option like the taser and would be used more often again if they were taken away.

When guns are used by police officers there is no shoot in the leg… they shoot for the center of the body… they cannot afford to miss and hit someone else by mistake.

I do agree that the situation that tasers are used needs to be looked at. Stopping someone that is a danger to themselves and the police officers is the correct use… but not punishing someone who does not do exactly as told. That is what I mean by training

I would still rather take my chances being zapped with a taser than hit with a billie club. Just another guess but I’ll bet more people are killed by billie clubs than tasers

Butch

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/28/2007 10:37:08 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Oh I agree with you NorthernGent ...I'm not talking about the right or wrong in that incident…what a tragedy… heads should roll. What I am saying it was poor training not the taser that was the problem. Those idiots most likely would have used a Glock22 if they did not have the taser.

Actually, the would have used the good, ole-fashioned baton. The way it's been done for centuries.

Whether it's a gentle prodding to keep moving forward, or a good old-head-cracking, the baton has served wonderfully all these many years.

Tasers, however, don't LOOK like you're BEATING SOMEONE, and therefore makes it more likely that violence out of proportion will be used.

Tazers are marketed as "Less than lethal", meaning, if you don't NECESSARILY want the guy to die, you could use a Tazer. Of course, they *might* die, but then again, so will someone shot in the face with a mace filled paintball.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/29/2007 12:40:55 AM

luckydog1

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You can kill someone with any sort of weopon. I would imagine getting cracked in the skull with a baton would cause more permanat damage than a Tazer. In an altercation of trying to subdue a person physically, there would seem to be a huge potential for injury or death, including bystanders. Police really do have goal of ending situations as fast as possible, and have no idea if the person has a heart condition or know Jujitsu, and will kick 3 of thier asses in 15 seconds.
That being said there should definatly be high standards for use and review. I was under the impression that they were 1 or 2 shot devices that spread identifiers when used. And that every use by law enforcement is logged. No Officer can just be tazing people for kicks.
Any weopon (or object) can be lethal.
Cops hands can kill also, We must do something about it. Should we cut them all off, or put BDSM mittens on them all?

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/29/2007 12:49:39 AM

farglebargle

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The point is that instead of serving as a LESS LETHAL alternative to firearms, they're being used as a "LESS OBTRUSIVE" alternative to batons, and as such, reduce the useful range of alternatives available since the continuum goes from "Threat" to "Drive Stun" to "Stun".

In this situation, you have MORE force being applied, rather than less, simply because it APPEARS to the witnesses differently.

Again, it's a training issue. People are too lazy to properly train others in the correct use of the traditional tools, so they rely on technology to provide a crutch.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/29/2007 1:50:00 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

Read the whole article and feel as though there is something missing in it. If the police were tasering him only so they could get handcuffs on, why did they feel a need to cuff him in the first place? I'm left feeling there is an untold part of this story.

As far as I can tell this is normal procedure even if the suspect is docile.

It appears that nowadays police in many so called liberal countries use more force to arrest someone than used to be used to invade another country. I remember one time it took two unarmed police to arrest a person resisting arrest, now it takes an army of macho swaggering (look how tough I am) robots to arrest a bewildered and confused harmless person. (No doubt they are hoping to end up on video in one of those cheapo police video programes...until it all goes wrong of course.)

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/29/2007 1:51:39 AM >

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