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This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 5:22:41 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		"Questions hang over taser death"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071025.wtaser1026/BNStory/National/home

VANCOUVER — Dazed and confused after more than 15 hours of travel, unable to communicate in English and scared because he couldn't find his mother, Polish immigrant Robert Dziekanski was jolted by a taser just 24 seconds after being confronted by police in Vancouver International Airport...

...CTV reported there was a 12-minute delay before medical help arrived. Mr. Dziekanski died shortly after being tasered — only 10 hours after arriving in the country that was to be his new home.

-----

After countless deaths being attributed to the use of these obviously lethal "taser" devices, many political groups have already raised the idea of banning tasers and I think it's time people support a ban on their use by law enforcement.

The time has come.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 5:28:42 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       So much for Canadian smugness....

      And I have no plans to throw away the stun gun in my toybox.  Click-click-click

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 5:36:08 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		What an awful awful thing to have happened. That shouldn't have happened. I don't have the right words for how that made me feel.
I cried because it was just totally fucked up.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 5:42:00 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Taser stories are the new shark attack stories.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 5:43:59 PM   
winterlight


Posts: 1319
Joined: 2/18/2006
Status: offline 		OMG how awful!   Tears rolling down my face....

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 5:48:22 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


Posts: 514
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline 		Read the whole article and feel as though there is something missing in it. If the police were tasering him only so they could get handcuffs on, why did they feel a need to cuff him in the first place? I'm left feeling there is an untold part of this story.

In 1980 I was tasered and I can say it is a particularly unpleasant experience. On the other hand I've never felt that my life was in peril from it. The article says Mr Dziekanski was a construction worker in his 40's. Unless he had a steady high-cholesterol diet his heart should have been in sound condition. Most of the deaths I have heard reported as a result of tasering have involved a prior heart condition or multiple taser shocks administered or both. If a taser is used according to directions on a healthy person it should not be lethal. From my own experience Mr Dziekanski should have been incapacitated enough after a single shock to be cuffed without difficulty. However, we seem to have a police attitude of, "Shock them till they are all the way down," that keeps repeating itself in these fatal incidents. Therefore I would have to say it is the police that are lethal and not the Taser.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 6:05:01 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Like I keep saying, bring back the wooden Billy Club.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 6:55:39 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		The point is that those type of electroshock weapons are potentially lethal. They are sold on the basis that they are non-lethal, and people are trained to believe that assertion. Well, they *are* lethal in many, many cases.

Police should not use them as if they were non-lethal when there is such a potential for misuse and the additional risk of killing someone. A taser does not substitute for talking someone down or other non-lethal force such as restraints. Plus, I don't see these cops asking anyone if there is a previous heart condition that might make the taser more lethal - if they are going to use a taser they aren't asking any more questions. And that's another part of the problem right there.

I knew someone was going to try to argue that the use of the taser was justified. My precise point is that the taser cannot be used justifiably unless one absolutely intends to kill - because the potential is there. Rather than let the police roll the dice on people's lives, how about we just declare tasers to be lethal force.

I have heard that the guy in the Canadian newsbit was throwing chairs and becoming more and more perturbed after being in the airport for 10 hours. The question becomes was he doing anything that required lethal force be used against him. With tasers the potential is there to kill him - it can no longer be assumed to be a mistake.

The weapon kills.

End of story.


< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 10/27/2007 6:57:01 PM >

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 7:06:34 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		From a thread a few weeks back:
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1334837

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1964707186772642906&q=taser+death&total=52&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7

He was handcuffed behind his back and in leg restraints, following an epileptic seizure at his home; an ambulance was called by his wife and son, but the police arrived first. His last words were: "Don't kill me, man. Don't kill me."

And the cops tell him: "Stop resisting." One presumes that was for the cameras...

-----

I think what I find interesting there is both the fact that the man feared being killed and that the police then nonchalantly actually killed him. Once the man died the police scattered like the cockroaches they are.

Exactly how dangerous is a man that is already handcuffed behind his back and bound by leg restraints? Is there some reason to tase him under those circumstances?

That is just cold-blooded murder, performed with impunity by people with badges.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 7:34:49 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I don’t believe it is the weapon...but the training that is at fault. No matter what the circumstance a gun is more lethal than a taser.

I’m all for finding better ways to control uncooperative suspects…BUT… If I’m a police officer and some nut high on drugs…many in this forum want to legalize by the way …comes at me with a knife or refuses to surrender…I would much rather taser him then shoot him.

If someone comes up with a better weapon or procedure I think they should use it…but right now taking taser out of the hands of police officers will kill a lot more than it saves.

Bean bags….pepper spray… billie clubs… could work if available and the manpower to use them but often police agencies are understaffed. I would not try and take down a violent suspect by myself with a billie club… I’d taser them or shoot them.

Bottom line when told to stop…stop… when told to get down…get down… when told to drop it…drop it…When a police officer abuses the use of a taser then prosecute. Don’t make them start shooting again.
Butch

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 7:56:28 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
…but right now taking taser out of the hands of police officers will kill a lot more than it saves.


Can you explain this quote so that the non-porcine can understand it?

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 8:13:42 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Oh, right, the police are supposed to be able to tell whether someone has a pre-existing heart condition before deciding to use a taser.  Umm, excuse me, would you mind taking a stress test for us?  We need to tell whether it's OK to zap you with this thing.

If it can kill someone with an unhealthy heart, it's not a non-lethal weapon.  So they should stop calling it a non-lethal weapon.

Simple as that, wouldn't you say?

quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

The article says Mr Dziekanski was a construction worker in his 40's. Unless he had a steady high-cholesterol diet his heart should have been in sound condition. Most of the deaths I have heard reported as a result of tasering have involved a prior heart condition or multiple taser shocks administered or both. If a taser is used according to directions on a healthy person it should not be lethal.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 8:15:49 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I think it needs no explanation unless common since is lacking.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 8:21:06 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have already let my opinion be known... there are just too many people with underlying health issues that tasing them then becomes lethal force.... this guy probably would have fared better had the cops shot him with real bullets

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 10/27/2007 8:24:59 PM >

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 8:30:44 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Kdsub:

Such pithy rejoinders must be why I normally blow you off completely.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 8:34:07 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Yes you do blow a lot of hot air anyway… why not tell me what you don’t understand about the statement… I did not know where to begin.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 10:42:34 PM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		I would like to see Worldwide statistics about taser related deaths. It may be people drop dead  just being handcuffed. I would recommend to folks who have health problems not to resist arrest.
  I think stun belt would make good slave training acessory.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 11:32:04 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		kdsub:

Please explain how the use of tasers saves more lives than the non-use of tasers. Are you actually suggesting that if the police didn't have ready access to a supposedly non-lethal weapon that they would have to resort to using their guns more? Shooting to kill?

Yeah, no holes in that logic or anything...

I think the subtext here is that the police are using their weapons (lethal, non-lethal, etc) altogether too frequently. Full stop.

I'm not sure that it makes sense to arm ANY non-military citizens with anything more lethal than a truncheon.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/27/2007 11:42:40 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, millions are dying from tasers. We need to stop this whole sale slaughter. You couldn't be funnier if you tried.

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RE: This must stop - tasers are not harmless - 10/28/2007 4:56:45 AM   
lazarus1983


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/25/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

The point is that those type of electroshock weapons are potentially lethal. They are sold on the basis that they are non-lethal, and people are trained to believe that assertion. Well, they *are* lethal in many, many cases.

Police should not use them as if they were non-lethal when there is such a potential for misuse and the additional risk of killing someone. A taser does not substitute for talking someone down or other non-lethal force such as restraints. Plus, I don't see these cops asking anyone if there is a previous heart condition that might make the taser more lethal - if they are going to use a taser they aren't asking any more questions. And that's another part of the problem right there.

I knew someone was going to try to argue that the use of the taser was justified. My precise point is that the taser cannot be used justifiably unless one absolutely intends to kill - because the potential is there. Rather than let the police roll the dice on people's lives, how about we just declare tasers to be lethal force.

I have heard that the guy in the Canadian newsbit was throwing chairs and becoming more and more perturbed after being in the airport for 10 hours. The question becomes was he doing anything that required lethal force be used against him. With tasers the potential is there to kill him - it can no longer be assumed to be a mistake.

The weapon kills.

End of story.



So your argument is that if there is a potential to kill in a device, then it must be banned based solely on its potential. Well then, everything is "potentially lethal," from good old fashioned physical force all the way up to a standard issue handgun. Everything has the potential to be lethal. Better cork your silverware, by golly that's potentially lethal!

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