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ORIGINAL: Level

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The calculus of living paycheck to paycheck in America is getting harder. What used to last four days might last half that long now. Pay the gas bill, but skip breakfast. Eat less for lunch so the kids can have a healthy dinner.

Across the nation, Americans are increasingly unable to stretch their dollars to the next payday as they juggle higher rent, food and energy bills. It's starting to affect middle-income working families as well as the poor, and has reached the point of affecting day-to-day calculations of merchants like Wal-Mart Stores Inc., 7-Eleven Inc. and Family Dollar Stores Inc.

Food pantries, which distribute foodstuffs to the needy, are reporting severe shortages and reduced government funding at the very time that they are seeing a surge of new people seeking their help.

While economists debate whether the country is headed for a recession, some say the financial stress is already the worst since the last downturn at the start of this decade.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071019/ap_on_bi_ge/stretching_paychecks

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I looked into getting my teeth fixed in Mazelzon Mexico. 

You might want to check to see if they use novocaine down there... Otherwise you might go down there and find out just before the procedure, all you get is a shot of Tequila.

cyberdude:
Before you go shooting your mouth off you might investigate a little of what you are talking about.  Go across the boarder and go to a dentist office and look at his diploma.  You will find that in many cases he is a graduate of an American dental school, like USC.  Now before you start telling me that diplomas can be forged, which is something that most everyone knows.  Just copy down his name, year of graduation and the name of the school.  Contact the school and verify it.
I know all of this first hand because I needed some dental work and I went to Mexico to check on prices.  What I found was that I could get the same work done here in California at a dental clinic not fifty miles from my home for less than half of what the Mexican dentist wanted to charge.
In both cases I went into the procedure rooms and looked at all of the paraphernalia to see what I might be getting for my money.  I found zero difference between the offices in Mexico and the one I eventually chose to do the work here in California.
thompson

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Strangely enough, it's the top 10% that are paying more than 50% of the wage-earner's income taxes paid in the US.

I guess that means that those who are PAYING the lion's share of the taxes actually got tax cuts!

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ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I looked into getting my teeth fixed in Mazelzon Mexico. 

You might want to check to see if they use novocaine down there... Otherwise you might go down there and find out just before the procedure, all you get is a shot of Tequila.

cyberdude:
Before you go shooting your mouth off you might investigate a little of what you are talking about.  Go across the boarder and go to a dentist office and look at his diploma.  You will find that in many cases he is a graduate of an American dental school, like USC.  Now before you start telling me that diplomas can be forged, which is something that most everyone knows.  Just copy down his name, year of graduation and the name of the school.  Contact the school and verify it.
I know all of this first hand because I needed some dental work and I went to Mexico to check on prices.  What I found was that I could get the same work done here in California at a dental clinic not fifty miles from my home for less than half of what the Mexican dentist wanted to charge.
In both cases I went into the procedure rooms and looked at all of the paraphernalia to see what I might be getting for my money.  I found zero difference between the offices in Mexico and the one I eventually chose to do the work here in California.
thompson

Hey Thompson.

I found your post quite interesting. I just had a buddy of mine return from Poland with a whole mouth full of neat new implants and caps. He said that after talking with several dentists here in the US, he would have paid over 35k for the work that needed to be done....yet it only cost him 6800.00 in Poland with airfare and hotel included.  

Please enlighten me here….could he have possibly gotten the work done here in the US for substantially under the 35k?

For that kind of savings.....I'd gladly let them substitute the Novocain for Vodka.





- R

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ORIGINAL: awmslave

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Strangely enough, it's the top 10% that are paying more than 50% of the wage-earner's income taxes paid in the US.

I guess that means that those who are PAYING the lion's share of the taxes actually got tax cuts!

This argument is taking numbers out of context. The fact is 1% in the US controls one-third of the nation's wealth; the bottom 80% just 15.3%; and the top 20% 84.7%. In contrast, the poorest 20% are in debt, owe more than they own, and it's getting worse.
If we look take home money there has been unprecedented increase for top earners while middle class income has been stagnant since 1980-s.
Who cares about taxes if their after taxes income grows exponentially.

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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The richest 1%, 5%. ENJOY  tax cuts.   everything is hunky dory. the war is on the credit card. no one pays- or it was going to pay for itself.

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Gawwwd.....I'm sorry, but this post begged for a more rational response.

It is going to get a hell of alot worse before it gets better.

In time, making say $50,000 a year you will be looking for an $800 car. The person selling that car will be doing so for food money. You think I'm kidding ? Just wait and see.

I don't at all think you're kidding.  I presume, prior to your disjointed effort at sentence structure, what you intended to say was...."in very short order, a $50,000.00 income will only allow you to buy an $800.00 car", which of course is pure unadulterated ridiculousness (naturally, you absolutely can buy an $800.00 car if you choose to, regardless of your income).
 
A side note...last time I checked...I was working for food too....and cars....and TV's, stereos....

You see there are two phases to this problem. One is that we create less wealth in the US, this because of outsourcing to foreign countries. The other is that what wealth is still created is being sucked up more and more by the big guys.

Actually, the main problem is in fact that we are creating less and less wealth in this country, yet we're seeking to create "status" by purchasing things on the increased valuation of our assets (typically homes) instead of focusing on the real dilemma, which of course is that the rest of the world is better educated than we are, and by virtue, they're coming up with all the latest and greatest, which appears to be lately, manufactured in China....which we're all...all very eager to buy.

In the years to come that $50,000 a year will not buy you a house. You will find that the big guys know that people need a place to live, and you will see the property available snatched up by future slumlords.

That will always be true in any real estate environment.  You of course have a variety of options, the most important being (should you opt not to live in a slum) to educate yourself enough such that an employer will value your input enough such that your income will rise above that which requires you to live in a slum.

I have said it before and it warrants repeating - Money is not wealth. Money is simply a medium of exchange of true wealth, something like a representative of wealth, akin to the flag of a country. It is merely a symbol.

Can't argue with that...however, one point should be considered;  a flag can't buy you a hamburger...money on the other hand has a variety of functions, the most important being that more people are eager to exchange goods with you when you have more cash (and fewer flags).

People think money solves everything, when in fact it is the worst thing to have. It does nothing but decrease in value every day. Anything else is better, property, tools, other durable goods. I wish I'd bought some huge underground gasoline tanks years ago when gas was "cheap".

But you didn't...and now those folks that have underground (or above ground) tanks brim filled with gasoline, do appear to have the upper hand.  Revisionist history is always a saving grace.

(Guess you should have bought some gas tanks....above or below ground....instead of whining why the haves...have...and you...have not).

Last week a buddy walked in here with a wood lathe, for $20. Twenty dollars !

My clan covets tools and machinery. One look at the basement will tell you. Even if it sits there and rusts, the rust can be ground off and the machine made like new almost, at least it will function. When the value of the dollar drops there is nothing that can be done. You lose.

Ahhhh, but therein lies the rub;  A man with a 20 dollar lathe can make furniture, which people will purchase....for an amount in excess of the natural price of wood....and those that purchased lathes at 20 dollars, when their intrinsic value was vastly in excess of that (while others, less farsighted, chose to sell), are the true builders of commerce.  These are the people that provide jobs.
 
Very likely yours.

The way I see money now is much different than years ago. I used to lust after money, and I made alot. I also spent alot. In the early 90s I had one job taking home about $350 a week, another making about $200 a week plus in my little side business I made between $200 and $400 a week. This was fifteen years ago.

Over time I lost my taste for it. When I get the stomach again to be in business, it is going to be something with alot of potential. Right now my time is worth more than money. I only work part time now and only make about two grand a month. I run out of money all the time. But I have time to think, to reflect, to participate in fora like this one. Right now I could do this without waking up before noon and always home before seven PM, but I opted for four days and almost always have Mondays off.

That rocks :)  Then you've found something that pleases you and gives you some solace.  That's always more important than money :)

They say time is money, but I disagree, time is way more important than money. I was working full time back when I was like sixteen. I was making more money than my divorced Mother. I don't know how we made it before that, as I bribed her with half my take-home pay to let me quit school. Of course she knew that I was already smarter than some of the teachers. Some, not all.

I'm not surprised...you write well.

Which brings us to another form of real wealth, knowledge and skills. I had them. I did not get them from school. I was designing circuits that actually worked as the electronics class was trying to teach about simple batteries. I was young enough to see certain things, like that Ohm's law is not some magical invention, it is simply a representation of the laws of nature. What price would you put on that kind of knowledge ? If I were able to sell my knowledge, that is that is would be stripped from my mind and implanted into the buyer's, it would not be for sale at any price. That's why I don't drop acid.

(Well, you may have missed something on that one LOL....I had a great time on acid :)  )

We have the ability to adapt, and that has been on my mind for quite some time. The time will come when it'll be like post WW1 Germany, a wheelbarrel full of money to buy a postage stamp. I can't say I am totally ready, but I am ahead of the pack.

The sad fact of the matter is, it is only going to get worse. To get better will require a massive upheaval of our socioeconomic structure. The rich are running things, and they always want more. They will never take less until we refuse. We make the wealth. Our knowledge and skills are wealth, our abilities and our drive are true wealth. It seems some of us don't have the drive anymore, but that is not always true. It's that some of us see money as the useless garbage that it is.

(I hate to lower the boom on you on this particular subject but...the rich have always run the game...either get used to it...or get rich.  Those ARE {and will always remain} your only current options).

There is a song "Addicted to a dollar that ain't worth a dime". And you have heard the phrase "Another day another dollar". Well compared to the 1910s or so, the dollar is now worth a nickel. So if you work an eight hour day at fifteen per hour, you make 120 "dollars" a day. Taken in these terms, you need to make 200 "dollars" a day to make a real dollar a day.

Your math's a smidge off, but your point is well taken.  And I ask this question...."so what?".  Fine....prices go up.  The house you bought for $175,000.00 (or $975,000.00) is worth (in 10 years) $425,000.00 (or $2 million).
 
So a gallon of milk costs 3 times what it did when you were 19...big deal.  You ain't making (I hope) $7.50 an hour anymore either.

There was an interesting ad for gold I read. They were advertising gold coins and illustrated that if you actually had the gold coins, from back when a new car cost a few hundred, you could still buy a new car with the same coins today. Kinda eerie to think about it that way, but I have every reason to believe it is true. A one dollar gold coin from the year 1900 is worth how much ? I won't bore you with the figures, suffice it to say that the figures do not make a good case for paper money.

(And your point is?)

This subject also creeped into the media in a song by Ronnie Montrose called "Paper Money". If you got P2P I suggest you get it. "You take away all my all my silver, take away all my gold, and hand me a stack of paper". If you decide to hear it, it might be listed under Sammy Hagar. HA.

I just happened to put that song on, another part "My car cost fifteen grand" now how old is that song ? Fucking fifteen grand for a car you probably don't get a cupholder. I'll tell you this, my Uncle was an executive at Ford, bought him a new Crown Vic, he asked "where are the floor mats ?". You don't get them anymore because of shipping costs, and this on a luxury car ! Later he bought a Buick Roadmaster. It came with floor mats I think.

This all points to the thinking of corporate America. It is so profit driven, so much into MONEY NOW MONEY NOW that they are killing the golden goose.

Thank your lucky stars that "Corporate America is so profit driven".  Companies that lose money tend to have a slight problem meeting payroll.
 
(I prefer working for corporations that are profit driven...but that's just me).

The existence of the stock market is part of the problem. It's almost as if the board of directors of companies are honor bound not to have any honor. It is now honorable to be greedy. What impact does that have on our lives ? look around. Everything breaks and costs a fortune to fix. And the repair shops are not making a killing either, they are pretty much hanging on by a thread in most cases. All small business suffers when big business creates these conditions.

And those conditions are?  So stop buying products that fail.  Guess what happens next? 
 
(Products get better).

I really don't like the media, but I do recommend the Montrose song, and a movie called "Other People's Money". The latter illustrates just how things work these days. It was one of Danny DeVitos serious roles. No humor of any import.

Another good one, if one wants to educate themself about how the world works is "The Palermo Connection" with Jim Belushi. Again, not much humor at all, but very educational. This one illustrates quite well how to manipulate public opinion, or the reporting of same.

Both of these movies should be "required reading" for people who, like me, are concerned about the shit that is going on in the world. And I very rarely send people to the TV set. I think mass media has been so abused that it is almost worthless. But every once in a while, somebody comes up with something good. Neither of the movies I mentioned got any serious promotion, and I can see the reason. If you see those two movies you will know why.

Boils down to this, there is no easy fix. Let me splain the stock market in the simplest of terms I can find. You got a company, and you can improve immensely on your widgets if only you had the money to buy a frazenstat. You go public.

People buy your stock, and then expect money for nothing, like interest from a bank, but more of it. You better make enough money not to "crash" the company, even with this debt load.

Actually, any company that anticipates, whether having gone public or not, that they can expect, by virtue of size to make money for nothing and / or sell shoddy products....will go bankrupt readily.

While I have been on the other side of the desk, I admit that I have never been in any sort of control in a publicly traded firm. I wouldn't want to be, that seems to me to be exactly between the old proverbial rock and hard place. Some of you may know this, I am glad not to have the stress.

Indeed, running / starting a company is incredibly stressful, and for those that have, they know all too well the sleepless nights they've experienced during the startup phase and every phase that follows as to how they'll meet payroll, betting on a big idea....most never truly knowing what it feels like to sit in the winners circle...because the odds are without question...against them.
 
Be thankful you've never tried, but be equally...and in fact, moreso, that your boss did.
 
(And does).

I'll tell you this much, the players in the game are so big, that if I ever do start a company it will never be traded publicly and there will be no partners. The best money is made in niche markets and they require personal attention in most cases. Thing is, if it were easy everyone would be doing it.

That's actually the one thing you've said so far that rings true.  The best money is always made in small markets.  (Trust me...I know this one).

The whole problem is that there are too many people. The old MLM scheme would never work otherwise, but when you buy that car, you get some steel and alot of plastic, and alot of over-engineering. And you are helping to pay people who produce nothing. Yes, some portion of the purchase price gets into the hands of the people who actually designed and built the car, but after you get through paying them, you are paying some suits whose function is to keep the taxes down, mismanage the company and play golf. Also, you are paying the shareholders. It's called dividends.

Well, it's actually called commerce...or capitalism, whichever you prefer.  (It's very effective...and it probably pays your rent).

Now we have a situation where alot of retirement and personal investments are dependent on this system. Where do you think that money comes from ? We all pay it.

Indeed you do.

The big one is coming my friends, of that there is no doubt. Just try to be as ready as you can.

The big one...is it a new car? 

T

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ORIGINAL: Sanity
Learn to control your temper, and then lobby the Democrats to open up our oil fields because according to the article increased fuel prices are responsible for this. Sure, the fishes off the coasts don't have many oil rigs to have to swim around, and the tundra teat mouse in Alaska isn't at all endangered, but families are going hungry because radical tree-huggers in Congress value anything and everything more than they do human life.

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ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom
The main bottleneck in the oil supply is not in the reserves, but rather in the processing. There is an ability to pump far more oil than there is capacity to process it into its useful products, such as fuel. There are some issues with available reserves, but the main price spike comes from high-demand in conjunction with limited processing capacity. Pumping more oil from more sources is useless, absent a greatly expanded processing infrastructure to handle the additional flow. Bear in mind that part of the oil chain (processing) is highly expensive and must be justified with reasonable returns in the long-term, and therefore unlikely due to economic realities.

We could spend the same amount of time and money on reducing oil dependence. (It takes several years for exploration, drilling and production, in addition to the needed expansion of processing to match.) That would have the dual effect of providing commercially viable alternatives (thereby increasing competition to the benefit of consumers) and drastically reducing petrol demand. But, that just makes too much sense I suppose.

*meow*

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ORIGINAL: Sanity
Woof

I agree that we badly need far more refinery capacity than we currently enjoy, but the price of oil itself is at a record high right now, which isn't helping the price at the pump (or the price of anything else). Putting more farmland into biofuel production will only cause more poor people to go hungry, more rioting in Mexico - so we really need more oil production, as well as the development of other energy sources, alternatives to oil / biofuels.