RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke

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orfunboi -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/20/2007 4:47:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy a social experiment. sad that there is a need for this. seems extreem tho. Allowing adicts to use clean needles and use good quality drugs enables them to stay healthy (relatively) and hold down a job and be a functioning, self financing member of society. This sort of thing was pioneered by a London doctor in the seventies and became known as the London project. It was very successful but Maggie Thatcher in her wisdom closed it down. A Swiss doctor on reading how succeddful it was introduced it into Switzerland where it has been going for around 20 years now I believe. Here in Amsterdam addicts are given clean needles from mobile health centres and prostitutes can have check ups. It is self financing by preventing so many people falling ill and having to be fainanced on the heathcare services. It's not really an experiment anymore, such projects have proved themselves. Then maybe we should send all the addicts to Switzerland...

orfunboi -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/20/2007 4:51:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen68 That only has the possiblity of working if an addict uses a clean needle every single time and then disposes of it properly afterwards. What are the odds of that happening? Do you think an addict is going to go to a clinic every time he or she needs a fix? Why bother having a fire department when some buildings are going to burn down anyway? What do you know yourself, about the odds of addicts using safe sites versus public toilets? You are just speculating. quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ....and why, pray tell, is this a joke? Or is HIV/AIDS not worth preventing by any means possible? (edited to add it was a fast reply and not aimed at Pahunk) It appears the government has given up in helping these people kick the habit so instead they are taking on the philosophy that if you can't stop them, might as well make it "safe" for them. And this isn't pot we are talking about. We are talking about some very hardcore narcotics here. These drugs are not safe under any situation. These people need help, not encouragement. Your government gave up on helping people when it started its war on drugs and began warehousing addicts in penitentiaries. The punitive approach doesn't work, as the foray into alcohol prohibition should have taught the USA. Safe injection sites are places addicts can go, without fear of prosecution to A) reduce the harm of their addiction through access to unadulterated drugs and clean needles - B) have access to counselling, health care, detox and treatment. Trouble is, there are not enough detox and treatment beds available... lots of prison cells are available, of course. Z. And are these clinics going to supply the drugs also? Last time i checked, it was expensive to be a junkie, so where are the addicts going to get their drugs? We certainly don't want them out stealing, so where do they go to get the stuff? Or maybe the clinics will supply that too?

pahunkboy -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/20/2007 4:57:13 AM)
funny they cant be sued- as there is a de facto guaratee of drug saftey. [implied]

LadyEllen -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/20/2007 5:00:24 AM)
I would much rather have such facilities, than have to worry about my UMs coming across used needles all over. I would much rather have the substances provided FOC than have to run the auntlet of addicts outside the shop down the road, begging and worse. I would much rather have addicts as healthy as possible, than disease ridden, turning tricks for drug money And I know very well from personal experience that addiction does not necessarily lead to a downward spiral, and know equally well that addiction in itself does not render someone useless. People talk about drug education - well, lets start perhaps with what is true and not scare stories which anyone can and will find to be unfounded, and consequently then disregard whatever else theyve been told. It is one factor only that causes the real danger and damage, and thats the criminalisation of some drugs, when others more readily abused are not so criminalised. E

LightHeartedMaam -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/20/2007 7:03:37 AM)
I wonder if the authorities pop in and prosecute them like they do with people who use medical marijuana. What's next? Provide those with food addiction more food? Alcoholics- booze? Pedophiles- ums? We have become a nation where giving up on yourself is trendy and acceptable.

farglebargle -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/20/2007 9:23:17 AM)
quote: We have become a nation where giving up on yourself is trendy and acceptable. Fuck The Protestant Work Ethic. If a person wants to take dope, or just kill themselves quickly, that's their RIGHT as a Free Person. It's none of mine, or your business. ( And I resent wasting MY TAX DOLLARS on hiring Pigs to provide price supports for the Rich, White Drug Dealers who really run the whole show. )

meatcleaver -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/20/2007 10:32:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: orfunboi quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy a social experiment. sad that there is a need for this. seems extreem tho. Allowing adicts to use clean needles and use good quality drugs enables them to stay healthy (relatively) and hold down a job and be a functioning, self financing member of society. This sort of thing was pioneered by a London doctor in the seventies and became known as the London project. It was very successful but Maggie Thatcher in her wisdom closed it down. A Swiss doctor on reading how succeddful it was introduced it into Switzerland where it has been going for around 20 years now I believe. Here in Amsterdam addicts are given clean needles from mobile health centres and prostitutes can have check ups. It is self financing by preventing so many people falling ill and having to be fainanced on the heathcare services. It's not really an experiment anymore, such projects have proved themselves. Then maybe we should send all the addicts to Switzerland... Why the hell do you think that a county that has a rational programme take addicts from a country with a failed irrational programme?[8\|]

sophia37 -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/20/2007 11:00:23 AM)
"Took steps" means they brought up the topic is all. No more no less.

slaveluci -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/20/2007 7:16:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet The opening of this facility will only lower the standards of life worth living. This will only encourge people to live there life as a drug addict and to do nothing more with there life. So how would we be really helping them? The resorces needed to pull this off can be better used somewheres else for the greater good of society. When you truely can't help someone, it's best to let them go where they'll die off. Keeping them around and feeding there addiction will only bring us all down limmiting the resources of the non drug users. As someone who once lived life as a strung-out junkie, this post kind of creeps me out. As I look at my life today, somehow I just know that I would never have been better off dead as you seem to suggest. "Keeping me around" is something I thank God for everyday. Just giving up on people and letting them go die off is a pretty sorry solution to any problem. No, society never did (nor does it now) owe me anything. But if a program like this can help even a few people out and allow them to go on to become (or return to being) a productive citizen, I think it's well worth it. But, actually, being an addict does not necessarily make one a non-productive citizen. I worked full-time much of the time I was most addicted. No one had a clue. Saying programs like these only encourage people to be addicts is, to me, about the same as saying sex education only encourages kids to have sex. Really....is it the education encouraging the sex and the program encouraging the addiction or are those things simply ways to attempt to have some control over a possibly very negative situation? Food for thought.........luci

Zensee -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/20/2007 11:39:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen I would much rather have such facilities, than have to worry about my UMs coming across used needles all over. I would much rather have the substances provided FOC than have to run the auntlet of addicts outside the shop down the road, begging and worse. I would much rather have addicts as healthy as possible, than disease ridden, turning tricks for drug money And I know very well from personal experience that addiction does not necessarily lead to a downward spiral, and know equally well that addiction in itself does not render someone useless. People talk about drug education - well, lets start perhaps with what is true and not scare stories which anyone can and will find to be unfounded, and consequently then disregard whatever else theyve been told. It is one factor only that causes the real danger and damage, and thats the criminalisation of some drugs, when others more readily abused are not so criminalised. E Eloquently put. To get mercenary, I believe it would be far cheaper and pose less risk to everyone, to simply provide for these people than to criminalise them. The cost of policing, the legal process, incarceration and the nearly inevitable "reoffending" sounds much more expensive than simply providing a place where addicts can be safe and supervised, voluntarily. Z.

TouchAssist -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/21/2007 12:20:17 AM)
If its FREE?

popeye1250 -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/21/2007 12:26:00 AM)
The rest of the country has been laughing at San Fran/ Bezerkley for 25 years.

realsubfla -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/21/2007 12:46:10 AM)
A joke? The feeling is mutual, trust me. Love, San Francisco

ElectraGlide -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/21/2007 1:10:59 AM)
It sounds too good on paper. Just supply the addict with their fix so they can go to work. Has anybody ever worked with a heroin or meth addict, not for long I bet, they cant hold a dam job. They are always dope sick and stumble around like a big baby, they make you feel sick by looking at them. The long term hard core drug users end up mentally retarded. I wished the sober people that supported hard core drug use had these drug users on their door step being a thorn in their side, to see what it is all about. If you are a hard core drug user and support this kind of crap, I can see why, you are a part of the mess and do not know it.

meatcleaver -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/21/2007 2:25:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElectraGlide It sounds too good on paper. Just supply the addict with their fix so they can go to work. Has anybody ever worked with a heroin or meth addict, not for long I bet, they cant hold a dam job. They are always dope sick and stumble around like a big baby, they make you feel sick by looking at them. The long term hard core drug users end up mentally retarded. I wished the sober people that supported hard core drug use had these drug users on their door step being a thorn in their side, to see what it is all about. If you are a hard core drug user and support this kind of crap, I can see why, you are a part of the mess and do not know it. I've worked with addicts. I worked in the probation service for ten years and I've seen what the traditional penal/moralist stance takes. It means more drug crime, more addicts coming out of prison than goes in and huge amounts of maney wasted on social workers and drug clinics that manage a problem without ever finding a solution. The London project has had addicts holding down jobs for years, from manual workers to professional workers. In fact if you read the stiudies, there are many affluent professionals who are addicts who go through life managing just fine because they can afford to buy good quality drugs and don't have to resort to crime to feed their habit. It is the criminalisation of addiction that creates the situation where crime becomes the main stay of the addict. The moral attitude to drugs has failed miserably and the only reason the London project has not been accepted is because of the irrationality of moralist politicians and the whimpishness of politicians who would like to be rational but believe the average moralist voter won't back them.

meatcleaver -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/21/2007 3:58:11 AM)
Actually on reflection, a lot depends on what drugs you are talking about. Not all will respond to any sort of treatment or programme. I was mainly thinking of heroin and there is so much more shit out there nowadays.

FangsNfeet -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/21/2007 5:59:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci As someone who once lived life as a strung-out junkie, this post kind of creeps me out. As I look at my life today, somehow I just know that I would never have been better off dead as you seem to suggest. "Keeping me around" is something I thank God for everyday. Just giving up on people and letting them go die off is a pretty sorry solution to any problem. No, society never did (nor does it now) owe me anything. But if a program like this can help even a few people out and allow them to go on to become (or return to being) a productive citizen, I think it's well worth it. But, actually, being an addict does not necessarily make one a non-productive citizen. I worked full-time much of the time I was most addicted. No one had a clue. Saying programs like these only encourage people to be addicts is, to me, about the same as saying sex education only encourages kids to have sex. Really....is it the education encouraging the sex and the program encouraging the addiction or are those things simply ways to attempt to have some control over a possibly very negative situation? Food for thought.........luci I'm all for tough love. Intervention with an altimatum is what it comes down to. "It's the Drugs or me and your loved ones." I refuse to support an addiction that is killing them and draining my resources. I never wanted to let anyone in my life go but they made there choices. I can only go on with my own life. Realize that I never "just" gave up. I really meant it when I said "Don't come back untill you are clean." How is a program such as this going to help anyone realize they need to quit using drugs? A facility such as this is not going to solve addiction problems. No addict will go to rehab as long as there is a safe place to get a fix. It will only cause lives to stay destroyed. If that's how the person is going to continue living there life, then they're already dead to me.

slaveluci -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/21/2007 7:28:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet I'm all for tough love. Intervention with an altimatum is what it comes down to. "It's the Drugs or me and your loved ones." I refuse to support an addiction that is killing them and draining my resources. I never wanted to let anyone in my life go but they made there choices. I can only go on with my own life. Realize that I never "just" gave up. I really meant it when I said "Don't come back untill you are clean." How is a program such as this going to help anyone realize they need to quit using drugs? A facility such as this is not going to solve addiction problems. No addict will go to rehab as long as there is a safe place to get a fix. It will only cause lives to stay destroyed. If that's how the person is going to continue living there life, then they're already dead to me Now THAT'S tough (not sure how "love" is involved). I'm just thankful that my loved ones didn't feel that I wasn't worth the effort. I used to be one of the worst ones to look down my nose at "weak" addicts. How could they let anything control them like that? I just could not wrap my mind around it and had no compassion for them. I had always experimented with all kinds of substances and nothing had ever made ME addicted. Then one day I found something that did and I learned about life from an addict's perspective. It's nothing I can explain to someone who hasn't experienced it personally. I see your point. I would just caution you to at least try to understand that every single person who is an addict is probably important to someone in the world and it's no fun being in his/her shoes. The high is so great at first but then it becomes hell just trying to score and feel that high just for a brief time. It loses all pleasure eventually. There are many sides to this issue and I do empathize with friends and family members who have to endure the addiction of a loved one. Tough love works sometimes. Seeing someone as "dead" because they won't just do what you want them to isn't usually the best solution though. If I hadn't had the support of my family throughout my addiction and the nearly 6 years since I'm "clean," I don't think I would be where I am today. Just a thought..............luci

meatcleaver -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/21/2007 9:09:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet I'm all for tough love. Intervention with an altimatum is what it comes down to. "It's the Drugs or me and your loved ones." I refuse to support an addiction that is killing them and draining my resources. I never wanted to let anyone in my life go but they made there choices. I can only go on with my own life. Realize that I never "just" gave up. I really meant it when I said "Don't come back untill you are clean." How is a program such as this going to help anyone realize they need to quit using drugs? A facility such as this is not going to solve addiction problems. No addict will go to rehab as long as there is a safe place to get a fix. It will only cause lives to stay destroyed. If that's how the person is going to continue living there life, then they're already dead to me. Tough love is a nonsense, it is the response of hopelessness. The current drugs laws and prohibition are a nonsense. The only people they have served are the drugs barons, the pushers and dealers on the one hand and social workers and police on the other. The addicts and the people who suffer at the hands of the addicts are forgotten, all are failed by an irrational system. Stablizing an addict is in society's interest as well as the addicts. Addicts don't go away by telling them to fuck off, they steal and prostitute themselves, spreading potentially harmful deseases that know no boundaries. It is in all society's interest to approach the drug issue rationally and forget fucked up morals and laws that don't work. It is cheaper to stablize addicts through providing say drugs, it also undercuts drug barons and reduces crime at a stroke. Less taxes will be used on expensive policing and social workers. I don't think providing clean needles, quality drugs and somewhere to administer the drugs because I believe in being kind to addicts, it is because I believe in the benefit to society as a whole, you, me, the addict and everyone else.

farglebargle -> RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke (10/21/2007 10:55:30 AM)
And, of course, we're talking about the POOR junkies. The wealthy junkies can just have their doctor write an opiate-analog prescription ( sometimes in someone else's name -- you know, for Privacy... ) , and then they can indulge their addiction at the expense of their health-insurance company.

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