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Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 1:34:09 AM

GabrielleSlave

Posts: 616
Joined: 9/20/2007
From: in servitude
Status: offline

Hi there,

i am new to this site, so have posted a little intro on the Newbies board. i have a question that i am hoping Y/you guys can help with concerning contracts.

My Master and i have been discussing having a contract and have B/both been researching this online. i suppose, each one is different to suit the people involved and their individual situations, but does anyone have any advice? Are there for example classic mistakes that folk have made, or is there something that each contract should or should not have?

i would really appreciate any comments!

Respectfully

Gabrielle (slave to Master Slayer)

Post #: 1

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 1:47:01 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

1) One cannot consent to an offence against one's self
2) One cannot form any legally binding contract which requires the performance of an offence as consideration
3) Such a "contract" should be treated with these understandings
4) At best, such a "contract" can be used as a private memorandum of understanding for the regulation of a relationship
5) At worst, such a "contract" can be used as evidence by law enforcement types for the purposes of prosecution

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to GabrielleSlave)

Post #: 2

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 3:21:14 AM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

I never understood the appeal. I was talking to a guy online who likened it to a pre-nup...but without marriage

When I asked him why, his reasons could all basically have been summed up into "I don't want you to change your mind and screw me over."

Well that's a great way to start a relationship - by treating the other person as a hostile who is just looking to screw you over. I guess I can't understand why my man would want a *contract* saying I have to give him sex, and love, and obedience, and all the rest. Shouldn't he be confident enough in himself as a man to know he gets those things because of who he is, not because I signed a paper promising to?

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 3

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 4:03:27 AM

GabrielleSlave

Posts: 616
Joined: 9/20/2007
From: in servitude
Status: offline

i guess W/we are thinking about it because W/we want to commit to eachother without getting married and to have something to show for this commitment if that makes sense? It is not about not trusting and certainly not because i need to have signed something before i do it... Rather i feel it would be a public statement of intentions, love, trust and mutual respect...maybe rather romantic too...

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 4

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 4:27:28 AM

Phoenixandnika

Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline

For me it is something I can look at and read on those days when being a slave is hard, or that my Master can look at when being my owner is hard, it is something we can look back on how we change and grow because our contract is reviewed and revised every several months. For us it has nothing to do with it being "legally binding" but everything to do with taking time to explain our needs and expectations.

Nika

_____________________________

"Life is neither a bed of roses nor a carpet of thorns, it's just what you make of it."

(in reply to GabrielleSlave)

Post #: 5

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 4:31:56 AM

rmanrr

Posts: 358
Joined: 7/25/2006
Status: offline

Greetings
I am of two minds on this whole contractual agreement thing. I have never had one signed in writing. My woman and I really don't need one (having performed the rite of FC). I can see where a contract might have meaning for the two people involved and for any variety of reasons. I can also see where a contract would not be worth the paper it is written on (having had that happen in real life in a business sense just recently). I am guessing it all boils down to the length of time you each have known the other, the comfort level regarding the dynamic you are experiencing with the other person, and a whole lot of other factors which are unique to each situation in WIITWD. If you have discussed it with the other party fully and after some time has gone by I see no reason not to have one, I also see no reason to have one. Your situation is your situation, if it feels right and your head says go for it then only you and your other will know it, and then take appropriate actions which are right for you both. I hope this rambling has helped in some regard. (smiles ruefully, the lack of sleep might have affected the response).

_____________________________

Be Well, Be Careful

Jarl Rmanrr

"the road untravelled is the loneliest." Me
Courage...the ability to overcome obstacles during the course.
"to be insane is to be original!"...Me

(in reply to GabrielleSlave)

Post #: 6

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 5:00:53 AM

Littlepita

Posts: 1430
Joined: 10/6/2005
Status: offline

We didn't like any of the online contracts that we looked at. So, my Sir took pieces of this and that, and stuff he wrote himself, and made a wonderful contract that was full of important information for us as we began our journey of D/s together. We reevaluated the contract every 3 months for the first year. It got shortened and revised every time. By the end of the year, at my collaring ceremony, our only contract were the vows we recited to each other.

I think contracts are useful when taken for what they are. They are not legal and they can't make you feel owned anymore than a collar can. That comes from the heart.

_____________________________

“I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” – Anais Nin

(in reply to rmanrr)

Post #: 7

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 5:11:39 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

If you are going to contract, about the only good thing about it is the fact that you have discussed these things and are aware of them, have come to some understanding..............

So the communication you have about it is the good part, the paper (and the idea of contracting) is useful if you crumple it and soften it and use as an adjunct to toilet services. (But get it in writing).

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to GabrielleSlave)

Post #: 8

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 5:30:05 AM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

I have long advocated the idea that the value of the contract is in the process of negotiating it's content. The final document while climactic is really far less valuable than all the communication that happens while figuring out what you want to put into it.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 9

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 5:35:14 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

I would have loved to have said it that way, Archie. You state things with a clarity I will never hope to possess.

Sincerely,
Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 10

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 5:42:14 AM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

Hi Gabrielle,

As far as i have seen and heard, one of the main problems with "slave contracts" is believing that they will somehow protect you or be useful to you in a court of law or if and when the relationship ends. There is no legal validity to a slave contract, in the eyes of the law. The only validity it has is dependent on how much you and your Master believe in the words you have written and how much you both commit to what you have written. The second problem with a slave contract is thinking that it will cover all aspects of your relationship. It can't, unless you amend it frequently, because there are always new issues that come up. You can't possibly think of every situation that might come up for the two of you somewhere down the road. To me, a slave contract is nothing more than a discussion starter. It can allow the two of you to think about different aspects of your relationship and some, what ifs, and discuss how you want to handle them. It's a guideline for you to use but, at some point, real life takes over and the guideline becomes obsolete and irrelevant. Rather than, or in addition to, a slave contract, i would think just writing down you goals, objectives, wants, needs, and expectations, would be more useful. Dating it and both signing that you have each read it, understood it, and freely agreed to accept it might not be a bad idea, as well as periodically reviewing it and revising it, as needed. It's not a binding document, either, but, it does help each of you to better clarify why you are in this relationship and what you hope to get from it and where you might have some differences that need to be addressed. For me and my Master, Oour word to each other is our contract. It means more to each of Uus than any piece of paper could. That's just Uus. Do what you feel is best for you and best of luck to you both. slave joyOwned property of Master David_____________________________________________________________
"Grow beyond your circumstances and realize your greatest possibilities."

(in reply to GabrielleSlave)

Post #: 11

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 7:01:23 AM

Maya2001

Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline

My suggestion is to use this BDSM checklist to form what limits you may have , it contains a scoring of activities so would help your dom and your self determine what are your hard limits(what so absolutely will not do) and the degrees of soft limits(things you may be willing to do in time as well as what activities you would be willing to start with
http://ms.ha.md.us/~tammad/over21/bondage/sub-checklist.html

One of the problems I had as a newbie with setting hard limits is I did not know all the activities that BDSM involved/included , so had not included some stuff, which lead to problems later when my dom wanted me to do something I had not thought of that went against my grain of acceptable activities. The above link provides a very extensive list

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 12

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 7:11:44 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

Bingo, Archer.

Although, in some jurisdictions, it is admissible in establishing consent, mitigating circumstances, etc.
Even in those cases, I still agree the primary purpose is as a focus for communication.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 13

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 7:14:02 AM

goodpet

Posts: 458
Joined: 6/8/2005
Status: offline

We have one. It took about a month to write it. I had been in service for about a year, on and off, and we have known each other for a long time.. After i petitioned we sat down and outlined what we needed from the relationship, wanted, and expected. All general things, not daily details.. We looked at what kind of relationship, what length and depth we were heading to.. It took a lot of talking..

Then we both wrote out a few lines of items based on the talks.. Talked more and identified what we felt were needed and other that were either too detailed or to vague..

i then wrote it in a contract form.. He review it.. we changed a few things.. Then.... we let it sit for a couple of weeks.. and came back to re-look at it. it still looked good to us and we met with the person who would be doing the ceremony, a gay leather man we both respected. He met with us, reviewed the contract, suggested a couple of changes and we came up with the final contract..

We don't have rules and details..
we do have what we agree to in our roles, and power exchange.

Contract help define the roles and help you to sit down and really think and define what you doing, willing to do. it outlines the structure of the relationship.

They are not magic, they are not legal but they can help define and with the mind-set.

~ann

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 14

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 7:23:29 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I have long advocated the idea that the value of the contract is in the process of negotiating it's content. The final document while climactic is really far less valuable than all the communication that happens while figuring out what you want to put into it.

My view/opinion is exactly like this.

I also can see it as a gesture between two people like the OP mentioned but the process is about the two people involved have learned, want and agree to live their life so it is personal do what works for you two not some form off the Internet.

A contract is a good understanding of what you are in agreement with at the time you draw it up. Life can change in many ways that can make what you write in it to become obsolete so do not draw it up expecting it will be a constitution for hopefully your very long and great relationship.

Personally my Master and I are waiting several more months but we plan to do a contract with the main point of communication and to show each other our seriousness in how we are developing our lives together.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 15

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 8:07:40 AM

SirCache

Posts: 159
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I never understood the appeal. I was talking to a guy online who likened it to a pre-nup...but without marriage When I asked him why, his reasons could all basically have been summed up into "I don't want you to change your mind and screw me over."

Well that's a great way to start a relationship - by treating the other person as a hostile who is just looking to screw you over. I guess I can't understand why my man would want a *contract* saying I have to give him sex, and love, and obedience, and all the rest. Shouldn't he be confident enough in himself as a man to know he gets those things because of who he is, not because I signed a paper promising to?

Agreed completely. Essential to me is trust, and if a person is untrustworthy they will be so whether there is a contract or not in effect. I find a contract to be a poor replacement for genuine trust in the people you're involved with.

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 16

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 1:09:57 PM

Elegant

Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I would have loved to have said it that way, Archie. You state things with a clarity I will never hope to possess.

Sincerely,
Ron

But do you possess the ability to not shorten someone's name????

grin

< Message edited by Elegant -- 9/21/2007 1:10:16 PM >

_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 17

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 4:52:09 PM

proudsub

Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline

Of all the contracts i have seen posted on CM, this one by topcat is my favorite. It's from this thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_15441/mpage_1/key_contract/tm.htm#16783

My Covenant (by topcat)

Please?

Please be my slave? Be my toy, my lover, and my treasure? Be mine, as I will be yours? Allow me to master you, to learn the all the secrets of you. Accept my dominance, give me your submission, and accept this covenant to give us a language to write our story with. Accept my dominance, not as chattel, but as my partner. Submit to me, not of out weakness, but from strength. I will take responsibility for your well being and happiness, and work to help us both be the best we can.

It is not, and never will be my goal to make less of you, or to break you, or tame you, or to ever make you into anything other than what you are and wish to be. I do not seek to humble you, or to put you down, but rather, I want to see you proud, and happy and utterly sure that I am every bit yours as you are mine.

Please be my slave?

As my slave, there are areas in which I need you to hold all responsibility for decision-making. These include but are not limited to, your family, your career, and your finances. Of course, I will fully support you in any course you chose in these areas, but they are yours to deal with. We are partners, and in working together, we will make more of our lives and ourselves than we could alone. I will always work to be the best master I can for you, and I need your help in doing that. Always let me know what you need, and I will do the same.

Outside of the above, I expect you to submit to my desires with good faith, with good will, and good humor. In the event that you feel I am asking too much, or being unreasonable, I expect it to be brought to my attention in plain language, and I promise to consider any issue you may raise.

I give the following as standing orders-

Protect the Property.
You are mine- my property, my plaything, my slave. Take care of yourself when I am not there to take care of you. That includes, but is not limited to, eating right, sleeping enough, and being careful when driving. This includes protecting yourself from me, if you feel it is needed. It also means not sharing our lifestyle with people who will not understand it for the equal, caring relationship it is. You are the final judge of what is best for you. That is your job. Mine is to take care of my health, you, and myself.

Trust.
Trust me never to do anything that will damage you, in body, mind, or spirit. Trust me always to want to do the best thing for you, and to be the best I can for you. Trust in me to trust in you. Trust me to speak from my heart and try to think before I speak. Trust me to remember that I care for you, even if I am upset. Trust me when I say that I would rather be hurt by the truth than made foolish with a lie. Trust me with your honesty, and trust mine with you.

Obey.
Obey me even when you don’t understand what I am getting at. I will always explain why later, if you still do not understand. I will always treat you with respect and courtesy, and I want you to remember that in leading I am serving us as much as you do in following. We are a partnership of equals, and letting me lead does not make you less of a partner.

I expect the above to be acceptable, and I do believe that you know that you are safe in trusting me with it. I would like us to be able to enjoy this aspect of our romance all the time and everywhere we go, so in addition to the above, I offer a protocol that that we may work with.

Titles.
You are mine- my slave, my girl, my toy- anything that I want you to be. Never ever, think that anything is said to hurt or belittle you. You may call me Master or Sir, or Lawrence, or big jerk, when it is called for. You may refer to me in lifestyle situations as 'my master' not as Master. My name is not Master, it is my relationship to you, and not only that of master and slave, but as the one who has mastered you, and continues to do so.

My Collar.
Your life is mine. To put my hand to your throat, to hold your life in my grip, is my privilege, and the strongest symbol of our bond that I know. If I could keep my hand at your throat every second of every day, I would. As, sadly, this would be impractical; in the place of my hand I will give you collars to wear at your throat, to remind you of my hand. You will wear these at all times practical, and I expect you to wear it proudly and eagerly. When you wear one, it should be the only thing that you wear at your throat. If there is something you would like me to wear for you, I will.

Sex.
Your body is mine. I will use it as I please. I will take you anytime I please, anywhere I please, in any fashion I please. When you masturbate you will tell me that you have done so. I expect you to tell me how best to pleasure you.

Bedtime.
I reserve the right to take you while you are sleeping. You may sleep through it if you like. Each night, before we sleep, I will ask to be sure that you feel safe, happy, and loved, so I will know that my work for the day is done, and I may sleep. Which ever of us wakes first will bring the other coffee if possible.

Deportment.
You will, whenever possible, walk at my left side or a step in front of me, so I can watch out for you, which is my job, and watch you walk, which is my pleasure. You will wait for me to open a door for you, and allow me to pass through it before you. At parties, and in general social situations, you will stay within arm's length of me, and to ask permission otherwise. I will, whenever possible keep a hand on you, and expect to feel you touch me as frequently as possible. When we disagree about something, we will do it privately. I will be attentive to you, and your needs, and we will be the couple that everyone else wants to be.

Dining out.
I will sit where I can see both you and the door, you will sit by my side, to my left, or where I indicate, whenever possible. I will order for you (your input will be appreciated). I will always wait for you to begin eating before I do, but you will wait for my nod before beginning. If I offer you food from my hand or fork, you will take it without lifting your hands.

Communication.
You will call me for any reason, at any time you wish. My phone is at your disposal. You are not to decide that something is not worth bothering about, or that it is too late. If you need to call me, for any reason, at any time, do so. I expect you to make an effort to be as available for my calls as I am for yours.

Limits.
You will apprise me of your limits, and I will respect them. I reserve the right to push them when I see fit.

SAFEWORDS- If you say "enough", you are vetoing my dominance over you, until such time as you say "Please". I will stop what I am doing and take whatever actions are indicated, i.e., untying you, holding you close, comforting you or what ever you seem to need. If you feel I am overstepping the bounds of your submission to me in a day-to-day situation, "enough" will signal a time out. "Are you my girl?" answered in the affirmative, will signal 'time in'. You are required to time out by saying 'enough' anytime that the D/s aspect jeopardizes yourself or our relationship. I may from time to time, also time out to discuss or do something I consider to be outside of the realm of the dynamic.

As much as it is my job to care for you, I expect you to make it your job to please me, and to work at it proactively. I offer this to you, not to impose my demands on you, but to give us both ways to be better together. Anytime that I do or say something that doesn't make you feel as special and cherished as you are, you are required to bring it to my immediate attention. Please?

*****************

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to GabrielleSlave)

Post #: 18

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 6:21:40 PM

devotedsylph

Posts: 56
Joined: 8/8/2007
Status: offline

I do not have a contract with my Master and I don't believe that we will have one ever. He is Master, I am slave. He says, I do. I don't need to have a piece of paper to tell me how to behave. He doesn't need a piece of paper to tell me how to act or how he will act. I used to think that a contract would be pretty cool, but over time, it just seemed to not be something that would fit our relationship.

We grow together as time and his will dictates, not by the boundaries laid out in a piece of paper that can only speculate the direction that life may take us.

- sylph

(in reply to proudsub)

Post #: 19

RE: Question on Contracts... - 9/21/2007 6:48:17 PM

susie

Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I have long advocated the idea that the value of the contract is in the process of negotiating it's content. The final document while climactic is really far less valuable than all the communication that happens while figuring out what you want to put into it.

I didn't realise it at the time as I was new to everything but this is the whole reason my Master got me to write a contract when we got together. It was a process that took a month or so on and off and included much rewritting and communication between us. It made me think about things I had not considered and gave him an insight into what I wanted or didn't want.

The final document has never been signed. I have a copy on my computer, which I admit I have not looked at since that time. The whole process was the point not the end result.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 20

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