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RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/19/2007 9:21:08 PM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
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I am not sure outsourcing these functions is a good idea either, but one thing should be clear. They were used extensivley in the Balkans. They are not a creation of Bush and Rumsfled. Gore reinventing and shrinking of the Government was mostly non combat millitary functions. The army contracts for food instead of having cooks getting millitary pensions, it started in the 90s. Close to 90% of Clinton/Gores reduction of the Government, was exactly this. Halliburton got plently of no bid contracts before bush got in to supply soldiers with food and amenities.

(in reply to MsBearlee)

Post #: 21

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/19/2007 9:26:06 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

What these MERCENARIES do is the dirty work we need done. Bush created a grey zone where they are in effect subject to neither US nor Iraqi law allowing their use in all sorts of bullshit ways.

They are the cowboys and dipshits who couldn't handle being in the real military and so they join up with the mercenaries. Happens all the time, I remember Rhodesia and all that crap, same BS except at least those bastards had some morals. What is going in Iraq is immoral.

Remember Fallujah? Those were not US troops drug through the streets, they were Blackwater guys. Lots and lots of reports of those guys shooting up Iraqis for fun or to keep every one's head down so they can get their VIP through. Some people get pissed when assholes shoot at them and shoot back. Personally, I can't say as I blame them.

Look at the current mess where they caught some of the mercs murdering civilians and now the US is telling the sovereign government of Iraq that they aren't so sovereign any time it is inconvenient for us and WE will investigate and let them know why the men aren't guilty...

Any wonder why Iraq is such a mess? Republicans can't even run a third world shithole without making it worse.

(in reply to MsBearlee)

Post #: 22

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/19/2007 9:31:53 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I see companies like this as a very natural unintended consequence of trying to wage "politically correct" war, and of the politicization of military operations. In Vietnam we had Air America doing that which was decided necessary, but illegal for the military to do, and CIA on the ground.

I think these companies are a horrible solution to a problem created by those shrieking loudest about them.

WTF? Who do you think privitized the military? It sure as hell wasn't the Democrats who decided it would be better to pay Halliburton to pretend to deliver water to the troops but to save on expenses by not shipping any.

It us Bush who has politicized the military, he fires anyone who dares speak the truth, promotes anyone willing to blow smoke up America's ass. Air America was busy smuggling herioin into the the hands of our troops and the slums of America. While I firmly believe in a robust CIA, lets not get all rosy and hold hands and sing about it.

So who exactly do you see as creating the need for mercenaries? Who exactly do you see stretching the military to exhaustion? Who exactly do you see deciding that invading the countries that had ZERO to do with 9/11 is a good idea while joining as allies with all the ones who did?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 23

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/19/2007 9:48:31 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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I apologize for urinating in your corn flakes, InfernoMDM. Unfortunately, the books I have read, the articles I have read, the interviews I have read, all disagree with what you posted.

Please review any of the articles in Rolling Stone about, say, Blackwater's actions in Iraq, a Blackwater operative with Blackwater who went by the nickname Wolf, etc. Or if you give me a chance to go to my dock bag I can provide the books I have read about it.

"Purely Defensive Operations" allows a wide latitude of actions which lack being a specifically "military" operation only in terms of the Iraq War Cheerleaders prefer to call the gratuitous violence inflicted upon a subject population during a military (or mercenary) occupation.

I know what Faux Noise wants you to believe, but you might want to look in to the actions of Blackwater in Iraq before you claim it is not a mercenary occupation force.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to InfernoMDM)

Post #: 24

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/19/2007 10:06:35 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Boy are you guys going to have egg on your face if it turns out they hire gays...

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 25

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/19/2007 10:06:49 PM

InfernoMDM

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/20/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsBearlee

Well, I was gonna thank you for your contribution, inferno...I DO like to hear both sides... but unfortunately your profile removes all credibility I thought you had.

<shakes head>

Why in the hell would that change my credibility? Because you think people in the Air Force are brainwashed zombies? Please one of my coworkers is as liberal as they get.

(in reply to MsBearlee)

Post #: 26

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/19/2007 10:16:40 PM

FGB

Posts: 9
Joined: 9/15/2007
Status: offline

The thing I find most interesting is the concept of a well trained and equipped private army available to the highest bidder.....looked at one way its a perfect solution to the human condition, a small(ish) Military force that can be used when people do what people do I.E try to kill each other. Used in a peacekeeping sense, it kinda makes sense...saves on the expense of keeping an army yourself, you only pay per use (and if a blackwater employee dies on the job, you know damn well the final paycheque is dated to T.O.D.) and ultimately, if no country has an army, theres no more wars huh? (yeah right)

On the other hand, its a perfect way to use amoral killers to suppress and control with a feasible amount of distance to deny wrongdoing and contravening one of those inconvenient conventions here and there.....

The question really is, what do we have? Im having a hard time just now dealing with not having first hand reliable information. Anyone been there and can give a first hand account? Ive never met one though Ive met plenty british soldiers with shrapnel wounds all over.

Theres usually three sides to every story, its deciding who to believe that really counts.

hehe...like this thread wasnt long enough already.....have fun y'all

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 27

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/19/2007 10:22:53 PM

InfernoMDM

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/20/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I apologize for urinating in your corn flakes, InfernoMDM. Unfortunately, the books I have read, the articles I have read, the interviews I have read, all disagree with what you posted.

Please review any of the articles in Rolling Stone about, say, Blackwater's actions in Iraq, a Blackwater operative with Blackwater who went by the nickname Wolf, etc. Or if you give me a chance to go to my dock bag I can provide the books I have read about it.

"Purely Defensive Operations" allows a wide latitude of actions which lack being a specifically "military" operation only in terms of the Iraq War Cheerleaders prefer to call the gratuitous violence inflicted upon a subject population during a military (or mercenary) occupation.

I know what Faux Noise wants you to believe, but you might want to look in to the actions of Blackwater in Iraq before you claim it is not a mercenary occupation force.

Sinergy

Next time I want to know learn about popular music events I will be sure to read the encyclopedia in your honor. Rolling Stones knows about as much about the event in Iraq as a beat farmer in Russia on most cases. Has Blackwater had some fucked up things happen, you bet your ass. However there jobs that were given to them, and records show a clearly different picture then what you paint. You need to do better on sources and RS hasn't always had legit informants as proven by the spotty history on certain topics.

As for your "Purely Defensive Operations" comments please understand that being a guard of a public building that gets attacked by 50+ insurgents doesn't constitute anything but defensive. I follow the PMC groups quite closely, and besides a few trigger happy idiots popin up in the news I haven't seen anything you have claimed to be true, or the links you provided to be on course with what is really going on.

SimplyMichael - These guys aren't mercenaries, you wouldn't know the difference if one bit in you. Why do you think they are so evil, is it your hatred of Bush, or your knowledge of the company and its function?

I don't really care if your for against the war, but it is apparent the people on this forum know little if any about PMC private companies that protect VIP's and seem to gravitate to believing any anti Bush comments without so much as basic college research on the topic. It drives me nuts when I see statements like the above by uniformed people. It's like reading a view from a coal miner, about the South American cannibalistic tribe, even when that miner hasn't ever traveled out of the US.

MsBearlee - I honestly don't know your issue with me, and I don't care but you really shouldn't take one side as truthful, just because you disagree with the other. Sometimes you will find out amazing things. That statement really holds true to both sides.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 28

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/19/2007 10:31:39 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

Yes.

Wilkenson, Taibbi, RFK Jr., et al should not be listened to or paid attention to because a magazine whose editorial stance is to not censor their writers works, whose articles are vetted by people like Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich, whose writers win award after award for investigative reporting, whose articles feature commentary about current events include interviews with Bremer, Rumsfeld, Kissinger, Carter, etc., is all about rock and roll.

I would say learn to think for yourself, but this may be asking the impossible.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to InfernoMDM)

Post #: 29

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/20/2007 12:14:47 AM

InfernoMDM

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/20/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Yes.

Wilkenson, Taibbi, RFK Jr., et al should not be listened to or paid attention to because a magazine whose editorial stance is to not censor their writers works, whose articles are vetted by people like Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich, whose writers win award after award for investigative reporting, whose articles feature commentary about current events include interviews with Bremer, Rumsfeld, Kissinger, Carter, etc., is all about rock and roll.

I would say learn to think for yourself, but this may be asking the impossible.

Sinergy

Just because you think there isn't sensoring doesn't mean its not biest. I would say get better sourses, but with your links to one sided comments about Blackwater, I would have to say thats impossible as well.

Seriously if it was such good journalism why doesn't it end up in tons more college term papers? Because it may contain more biest reporting then "sensored" articles. The bad part is apparently this Mr. Wolf has been reputed by other former, and current blackwater workers. That said you may choose not to believe them, but its hard for me to believe a whisle blower, just because he agrees with my views.

In all honesty the industries recent history should speak for itself, but you and others have clinged to the medias hype of all the bad things. While ignoreing Triple Canopy etc who havent had issues like blackwater, and are doing more military stuff.

Also why is Blackwater being targeted by you? Because they primarily do VIP protection of Embassy related events, while other companies are directly being funded by the military for other roles like pipe line protection etc.

That is why I think you guys are finding lots of smoke and no fire.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 30

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/20/2007 12:23:42 PM

Nosathro

Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline

Actually Blackwater is not hired by the US Military it is hired by the US State Department. That has been a problem because Blackwater and other Security Company have operated in Miltary Zones without the local Military knowing about it. Supposedly Blackwater is under the State Department Security Department. Even some State Department Personal have stated that Blackwater is counter to State Departments efforts. It has been even when directives by State Department are issued, Blackwater which is suppose to comply ignores them. Another incident has been reported where Blackwater personal had a run in with the Interior Minster at his Office.

InfernoMDM you have the right to speak your mind, but you seem to be taking this personally. You may disagree with others but that does not mean you can not respect their views.

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to InfernoMDM)

Post #: 31

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/20/2007 4:34:34 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I see companies like this as a very natural unintended consequence of trying to wage "politically correct" war, and of the politicization of military operations. In Vietnam we had Air America doing that which was decided necessary, but illegal for the military to do, and CIA on the ground.

I think these companies are a horrible solution to a problem created by those shrieking loudest about them.

Damn those INCONVENIENT LAWS! If it wasn't illegal, they wouldn't have to conspire to violate them...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 32

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/20/2007 6:04:18 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Damn those INCONVENIENT LAWS! If it wasn't illegal, they wouldn't have to conspire to violate them...

Are you talking about the military, Fargle, or replenishing your stash?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 33

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/20/2007 6:31:14 PM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

Too bad John Wayne's not around, he'd make the greatest fucking movie ever about Blackwater and make everyone love 'em for being American heroes.

It's too bad so many Americans are so self-loathing about BEING American these days. It's too bad so many Euros with extreme tunnel vision have a knee-jerk reaction against America too. Yeah, where is John Wayne when you need him? I'm sure he'd crush some skulls, and they probably wouldn't all be terrorists either. A few Libs would his in the way, and there would undoubtedly be some Euros selling terrorists missiles who would be getting their throats cut too.

Yeah, in the good old days Hollywood didn't hate America, and half of all Americans didn't hate America either.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to MsBearlee)

Post #: 34

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/20/2007 8:26:41 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Yes.

Wilkenson, Taibbi, RFK Jr., et al should not be listened to or paid attention to because a magazine whose editorial stance is to not censor their writers works, whose articles are vetted by people like Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich, whose writers win award after award for investigative reporting, whose articles feature commentary about current events include interviews with Bremer, Rumsfeld, Kissinger, Carter, etc., is all about rock and roll.

I would say learn to think for yourself, but this may be asking the impossible.

Sinergy

Errrmmm... you might want to explain how tacking that impressive ad hominem list onto the opinions of RFK Jr. (instead of researching how thoroughly his anti-vax rant was debunked), is 'thinking for yourself'.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 35

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/20/2007 11:42:35 PM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Yeah, in the good old days Hollywood didn't hate America, and half of all Americans didn't hate America either.

Maybe those 50% of self hating Americans are like the 50% of self hating Europeans that in the imperial times hated their government for the crimes they were committing in their name?

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 36

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/21/2007 2:45:23 AM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Actually Blackwater is not hired by the US Military it is hired by the US State Department. That has been a problem because Blackwater and other Security Company have operated in Miltary Zones without the local Military knowing about it.

Aegis defence systems has the contract, from the Pentagon, to co ordinate all the activaties of the PMC`s and the local military. I cant see any way Blackwater can do what they do, without the knowledge of the miltary. Aegis is run by Tim Spicer and the added link may be of interest.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article727132.ece

Sanity..... i think many Europeans love America, just not this present government and its policies.

(in reply to Nosathro)

Post #: 37

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/21/2007 6:53:35 AM

InfernoMDM

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/20/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Actually Blackwater is not hired by the US Military it is hired by the US State Department. That has been a problem because Blackwater and other Security Company have operated in Miltary Zones without the local Military knowing about it. Supposedly Blackwater is under the State Department Security Department. Even some State Department Personal have stated that Blackwater is counter to State Departments efforts. It has been even when directives by State Department are issued, Blackwater which is suppose to comply ignores them. Another incident has been reported where Blackwater personal had a run in with the Interior Minster at his Office.

InfernoMDM you have the right to speak your mind, but you seem to be taking this personally. You may disagree with others but that does not mean you can not respect their views.

First let me say the red was not necessary. Secondly I dispise the fact that so many people here are claiming things they don't have one shred of knowledge, or assume second hand accusations are correct. For instance I hate Hillary Clinton for how she treated fellow soldiers while the camera was off, but when someone claims she is a lesbian, or got raped by Bill I rage the same way.

By the way the "operating in military zones" comment is BS. They know these guys are there, they go through the checkpoints just like myself and every other person. They are clearly identified by there paperwork. Now most FOB commanders don't know when these guys are roleing on and off base, because most of the FOB commanders don't know when and where the VIP is going to be/sevral other reasons.

I know people who work for PMC, I have been in country, and will be heading back, and I have almost completed my international relations degree. Let me make it clear if you don't back your shit up, I am going to smear it all over your face.

It seems no one here on this forum has any idea of what blackwater is, what they do, the generally good job they do, or there prestigue. Have they had fucked up events you bet, but the killing civilians are accusations, in a area where every armed combatant ends up a "innocent civilian" after there weapon is gone. I am not saying someone didn't get stupid, but I will bet my next pay check if we were there incoming fire came in. These guys are novices to being shot at they know when bullets are being shot in the area, and when they are getting shot at specificly.

P.S. Sorry no spell check on here. I will correct spelling when I get home.

(in reply to Nosathro)

Post #: 38

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/21/2007 7:00:40 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Damn those INCONVENIENT LAWS! If it wasn't illegal, they wouldn't have to conspire to violate them...

Are you talking about the military, Fargle, or replenishing your stash?

FROM YOUR OWN POST, QUOTED IN MINE.

The context is clear. The Ad Hominum attack is unwarranted.

quote:

In Vietnam we had Air America doing that which was decided necessary, but illegal for the military to do, and CIA on the ground.

I think these companies are a horrible solution to a problem created by those shrieking loudest about them.

Again. The solution is simple. If you DO NOT INTEND TO BREAK THE LAW, YOU DO NOT NEED "CUT OUTS" TO EVADE RESPONSIBILITY. Your allegation that the Military and or Bush Administration is justified in some way in breaking those laws is Just Plain Wrong.

( Unless you are a crook )

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 39

RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P - 9/21/2007 7:02:24 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM

First let me say the red was not necessary. Secondly I dispise the fact that so many people here are claiming things they don't have one shred of knowledge, or assume second hand accusations are correct. For instance I hate Hillary Clinton for how she treated fellow soldiers while the camera was off, but when someone claims she is a lesbian, or got raped by Bill I rage the same way.

By the way the "operating in military zones" comment is BS. They know these guys are there, they go through the checkpoints just like myself and every other person. They are clearly identified by there paperwork. Now most FOB commanders don't know when these guys are roleing on and off base, because most of the FOB commanders don't know when and where the VIP is going to be/sevral other reasons.

I know people who work for PMC, I have been in country, and will be heading back, and I have almost completed my international relations degree. Let me make it clear if you don't back your shit up, I am going to smear it all over your face.

It seems no one here on this forum has any idea of what blackwater is, what they do, the generally good job they do, or there prestigue. Have they had fucked up events you bet, but the killing civilians are accusations, in a area where every armed combatant ends up a "innocent civilian" after there weapon is gone. I am not saying someone didn't get stupid, but I will bet my next pay check if we were there incoming fire came in. These guys are novices to being shot at they know when bullets are being shot in the area, and when they are getting shot at specificly.

P.S. Sorry no spell check on here. I will correct spelling when I get home.

It's really sad when the State Department DOESN'T TRUST THE MARINES TO DO THE JOB!

IIRC, that was one of their purposes.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to InfernoMDM)

Post #: 40

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