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MsBearlee -> Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 1:19:38 PM)

 
So, admittedly I am not into politics, but I have a sort of politically sensitive question.
 
Apparently the US hires companies to do work for its military service.  Apparently some 20% of the security in Iraq is provided by private security contractors…the most infamous of which is called ‘Blackwater USA’. 
 
Without getting into a discussion of this particular company, I’d like to know WHY we use such companies at all.  It appears to me, though I could be wrong, that the US Military is the employer of these companies.
 
If this is the case, why does our military hire others to do ‘security work’; rather than use their own troops? 
 
And why on earth would anybody hire Blackwater USA…after Googling and reading several articles about the company…I find the thought of using them kinda scary!
 
Again, I realize I’m showing off my ignorance here, but I am interested in your thoughts regarding this topic and the various permutations that are bound to come up.
 
Thanks ,
Beverly



LadyEllen -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 2:11:28 PM)

I'll admit I dont know much more than hearsay on this MsB, but here goes anyway (maybe someone can correct me where I'm wrong?)

As I heard it, the guys working for BW on the ground are ex military themselves. Working for BW they get paid 3x what they got in the army/marines, more time off more regularly and all round better equipment and so on.

Meanwhile, the front line ordinary soldiers are getting a rough deal by comparison - and add to that an unpopular and foolish security policy, the army/marines are having problems in recruiting. If one cant recruit normally, then mercenaries are always a resort.

Now, given that BW employees are ex military and I would presume run with some sort of military hierarchy, I would guess it isnt just ordinary soldiers and NCOs working for BW, but a wide range of ranks up to some very senior ranks in terms of army/marine careers. In this way, BW gains access to high levels where they can secure contracts perhaps.

But also from what I heard, it would be interesting to study who the shareholders in BW are and who owes BW for party funding.

E



wilfulcontrol -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 2:12:52 PM)

1) Blackwater, Triple Canopy, Aegis, Prudential, EO (now defunct), require that their employees have 2-4 years prior military/SWAT/spec ops experience, so they're more experienced than the average grunt fresh out of boot camp, and have experience with strategic implementation.  Several also have taught foreign militaries and police forces, so they need more specialized experience....though this has a history of biting the United States in the ass..... 

2) They do a great deal of escort/security work for private individuals and organizations who pay top dollar, so they can afford to have the best equipment available.  Certain APC's can withstand landmines and grenade attacks, while Humvees offer much less protection.

3) They are (very well) paid to take risks that the military generally doesn't want to impose on its personnel who probably don't have the experience/insanity to try it ie. BW's helicopters that fly ungodly low to the ground over Baghdad.



MsBearlee -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 2:19:33 PM)

Thank you for your reply LadyE.
 
I sort of understand that the folks working for BW and other such paid warrior companies, are likely ex-military…I suspected they got paid more than our current military men & women, too; but THREE TIMES?  Good lord…and for the most part we are paying them?  I dunno...this whole way of 'waring' seems just wrong.
 
It is no wonder, with the likes of Halliburton and Blackwater that the damn war is so popular with some people.  Someone is making a LOT of money…yet!!!
 
As I understand it, BW comes from some sort of Christian/conservative background; pretty darn popular background for most republicans, no?
 
Okay, I said I’m not well read regarding politics; not that I don’t have an opinion!  LOL
 
Please, I hope to read more about this little topic.
B

Edited to comment re:

quote:

ORIGINAL: wilfulcontrol
...
3) They are (very well) paid to take risks that the military generally doesn't want to impose on its personnel who probably don't have the experience/insanity to try it ie. BW's helicopters that fly ungodly low to the ground over Baghdad. 


Right, and the fact that they have had absolutely free reign regarding both what they do IN whatever country they’re ‘securing’ and what responsibility they have TO the employees they hire…I guess they are plenty okay with said risks.  <sigh>

Thanks for your comments, too.



Politesub53 -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 3:42:25 PM)

Blackwater were started up by 3 ex navy seals, from whai i have read. Almost all their contracts come from the governement, 2/3 of which are no bid contracts. I would think they have to operate under laws governing every American abroad unless they have special dispensation.

There are similar firms in the UK, often involved in contracts the government cant be seen to be involved with.



domiguy -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 3:43:52 PM)

They also are not listed in the count as military casualties....They get themselves blowed up on a regular basis...Our tax dollars pay for this deception...At somewhere around $700.00 to $1,000.00 dollars per day for each one of these mercenaries....They are above the law.  And don't count when they are below the ground.



Real0ne -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 3:49:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wilfulcontrol

1) Blackwater, Triple Canopy, Aegis, Prudential, EO (now defunct), require that their employees have 2-4 years prior military/SWAT/spec ops experience, so they're more experienced than the average grunt fresh out of boot camp, and have experience with strategic implementation.  Several also have taught foreign militaries and police forces, so they need more specialized experience....though this has a history of biting the United States in the ass..... 

2) They do a great deal of escort/security work for private individuals and organizations who pay top dollar, so they can afford to have the best equipment available.  Certain APC's can withstand landmines and grenade attacks, while Humvees offer much less protection.

3) They are (very well) paid to take risks that the military generally doesn't want to impose on its personnel who probably don't have the experience/insanity to try it ie. BW's helicopters that fly ungodly low to the ground over Baghdad.



Now that sounds like an advertizement for them!

They also were hired by our government on a no bid contract and used in katrina debacle.

Exactly what risks are they taking that the military is not taking?

Are you saying that everyone in our military is "a grunt out of boot camp"? and there is no experience to be found in our military?

Stragegic implementation like shooting anything that walks crawls or moves?

You are however correct in biting the us in the ass, its nice to know we have mercernary groups around who's services are FOR SALE to the highest bidder in the US it makes me sleep much more comfortablly.

Blackwater shooting anything that moves

Here are a couple other threads just posted recently.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1204052/mpage_1/key_blackwater/tm.htm#1204751

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1281849/mpage_1/key_blackwater/tm.htm#1282282




MsBearlee -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 3:59:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Blackwater were started up by 3 ex navy seals, from whai i have read. Almost all their contracts come from the governement, 2/3 of which are no bid contracts. I would think they have to operate under laws governing every American abroad unless they have special dispensation.
...  


Oh...kinda like Halliburton?
 
Yeah, but I understand they HAVE special dispensation......well, till today.



Sinergy -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 5:04:33 PM)

 
Blackwater is simply one of the people who won the lucky lottery ticket by electing AnencephalyBoy.

No bid contracts, high corporate profits, out-source the military so they do not have to be covered by the company, etc.

Sadly, the Iraq War Cheerleaders who started this debacle apparently have not read much history.  They are also unfamiliar with Article 47 of the 1949 Geneva Convention has this to say about it.

Article 47.-Mercenaries
1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.
2. A mercenary is any person who:
(a) Is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
(b) Does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;
(c) Is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
(d) Is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
(e) Is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
(f) Has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.

Blackwater and their ilk are specifically denied involvement in such a conflict.

Sinergy



farglebargle -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 5:07:58 PM)

These mercenaries are Rumfeld's expansion on Friedman's hypothesis about outsourcing everything.

Friedman believed that the Military and Police should be kept as essential governmental services.

Rumsfeld thinks differently.

And we get an occupation force of 400,000 instead of 160,000....

And no-one gives a shit if the mercenaries get dragged through the streets and hung from the lampposts, do they?

Nope. That's why they call it GAMBLING.




Bearlee -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 5:25:12 PM)

 
<shudders>
 
So...it is NOT our 'government' but THEIR government/people who hire such companies?  Sinergy...was that meant to be a sort of tongue-in-cheek post, or are these people really NOT 'part of our military'?  I rather thought it more the way farglebargle put it.
 
I remember reading that the families of employees to such companies are alla sudden up in arms that their folks didn't get the 'proper protection or warnings for what they were doing.  HA...as if a mercinary doesn't know.  <sigh>   I dunno...I just have an instinctual, knee-jerk reaction to such balderdash!  I guess 'eventually being held accountable for their actions' is better than never.
 
But then, I'm a tree-hugging, bleeding-heart liberal, too.
 
Still, I really am just trying to better understand who these people ARE and what the hell they are doing in these other countries.  Ya know...sometimes I am so embarrased to be an American.  Really!!!
 
Beverly



Sinergy -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 6:12:36 PM)

It was not tongue in cheek.

Blackwater, et al, are paid by the US Government to conduct military operations in a foreign country.

Mercenaries.

Sinergy



Real0ne -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 6:27:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

It was not tongue in cheek.

Blackwater, et al, are paid by the US Government to conduct military operations in a foreign country.

Mercenaries.

Sinergy


and they are not part of the us military they are a corporation



MsBearlee -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 8:07:56 PM)

 
Well then...full of irony, then?  I didn't understand you were saying they ARE paid by our government; I thought they were...but coulda been wrong; like I said...I'm not into politics, really.
 
These companies then...are pretty much like Haliburton, afterall. 
 
Gawd...how is it we 'let' these things happen?  It seems to me some of the powerful have gone too far. 
 
And, it's scary as hell...
B




InfernoMDM -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 8:22:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

It was not tongue in cheek.

Blackwater, et al, are paid by the US Government to conduct military operations in a foreign country.

Mercenaries.

Sinergy


1.  You don't know what the hell a PMC is compared to a mercenary.
2.  You don' know the job of blackwater or other said companies.
3.  You have falsely implicated these companies as war fighters.

Blackwater and other companies are NOT even closely related to mercenaries, and DO NOT carry out military operations.  A few of you have got some BS concepts because you listen to way to much Air America, and fucking take every word they say is the truth.  You need to get your damn facts straight.

PMC companies are NO BID contracts, because they can't be.  The people hired to certain companies are picked due to there prior United States Military service and there Top Secret security clearance.  You can't have a bid on it (unlike Haliburtan) because these companies closely work with the security of top US policy makers to include Miss Bitchy ass Hilary Clinton when she goes over to Iraq.  Yeah she was a asshole to us when she came off the plane, and yes PMC guys were there to protect her.  You can't have foreign people, and half wit organizations running protection even for her ass.  As much as I hate her for being a bitch both times the camera wasn't in front of her,  I still don't think she should be killed by some enemy of the US that got contracted to protect her.

Now for the not the Mercenary speech.  PMC Private Military Contractors, CANT get involved in any military missions, attack any one, or be used as a military augmentation.  They can only be tasked for defensive purposes.  This included Distinguished Visitors, Protection of Assets (power plants etc), and protection of NON-military personnel.  Essentially they are over glorified security guards with tons of training.

With that said, they are military, they aren't supposed to attack anything that isn't a threat to themselves or what/who they are protecting.  Almost all of them are professionals, and generally don't do anything stupid.

As for the "military can do it" speech.  Most military personnel minus certain special forces(and most special forces don't train in this primarily) don't have the training for protecting VIP's at all.  These guys have the training, do the job, and are reliable people that wont rat out when even Hillary is going to visit a bad place. 

RealOne - Being that Special Forces, the people who could do PMC work are some where around 1%(I think thats right but its low) of the US armed forces.  It is reasonable to believe that we would hire old men who have gotten out, or have experience, to do these jobs, so the SF can get the bad guys, or do other vital jobs instead of baby sitting.

You don't even know what your video you posted was even about do you?  That was when a compound full of US soldiers and Blackwater contractors (tasked out to protect VIPs in the area) came under attack.  Blackwater at the time fought back to prevent the loss of life to themselves, military personnel, and the base.  Which is one of the few times they have actively engaged in  combat like that. 

It amazing that everyone one of the nuts that goes "oh PMC = shadow military" plays the only video showing of them doing DEFENSIVE OPERATIONS on a place they live!  If someone tries to run over the place I live I am going to shoot back, be damned what you think.

Your research is flawed, your conclusions are flawed, and you apparently know nothing about the companies, or what jobs they do, except the propaganda you get from youtube.  Thats disgracefully inept, and you need to learn about the companies jobs, before looking at one company fucking up, and claiming everyones guilty.

How short your memory is of the 4 Blackwater soldiers that were hung and burned in Iraq, that you think insurgents won't do that again.  That time they were protecting the police chief of the city, and were killed while protecting a Iraqi citizen.

Changed for spelling(damn FireFox forgets to auto spell check)

addition:

Why don't you take the time to watch the rest of the video all your links to previous comments on Blackwater, and the videos Shadow Army show one guy saying "this is like a turkey shoot" and you have bit the big old worm called propaganda.  Go watch the rest of the video, read the story about what happened, which I believe was in ramade(SP).  The next time you claim someone is believing "Republican Propaganda" please remember in this case your being duped to.



InfernoMDM -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 8:28:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsBearlee


Well then...full of irony, then?  I didn't understand you were saying they ARE paid by our government; I thought they were...but coulda been wrong; like I said...I'm not into politics, really.
 
These companies then...are pretty much like Haliburton, afterall. 
 
Gawd...how is it we 'let' these things happen?  It seems to me some of the powerful have gone too far. 
 
And, it's scary as hell...
B




Some yes are payed by the DOD to protect Iraqi military, Law Enforcement etc.  Others are payed by private firms that are rebuilding roads in Iraq, power plants, etc etc.  While our government is a main income at the moment, when the war ends these guys will be either there in a defense role of the Iraqi government as they are now, or move to other places like Africa, Philippines etc.  In fact Backwater currently has people in both areas doing protction for companies, US or otherwise.

We also pay lots of companies to augment the Airlift Command, and I never see one conspericy guy after that.  Hell we have Russian AN-124's flying new anti IED trucks that can withstand 300+ pounds of explosives to US soldiers. 



TheHeretic -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 8:51:02 PM)

         I see companies like this as a very natural unintended consequence of trying to wage "politically correct" war, and of the politicization of military operations.  In Vietnam we had Air America doing that which was decided necessary, but illegal for the military to do, and CIA on the ground. 

      I think these companies are a horrible solution to a problem created by those shrieking loudest about them.

      

      



MsBearlee -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 8:52:36 PM)

 
Well, I was gonna thank you for your contribution, inferno...I DO like to hear both sides... but unfortunately your profile removes all credibility I thought you had. 
 
<shakes head>



MsBearlee -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 8:55:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
...
I think these companies are a horrible solution to a problem created by those shrieking loudest about them. 


Thank you Rich...  as distasteful and heartbreaking (to me) as that is, I bet you're right.
 
Beverly



TheHeretic -> RE: Blackwater USA and other 'P (9/19/2007 9:18:12 PM)

        Perhaps the good solution would be to never loose the "Dogs of War" unless we are ready to take off the muzzle and sleep with the consequences.



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