RE: Political views hardwired? (Full Version)

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lucern -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 2:21:06 PM)

Popeye, if it was published research I'd have posted a reference so that you could see for yourself.  It wasn't.  The data and results are real though.  The data comes from the General Social Survey:  http://publicdata.norc.org:41000/gssbeta/index.html .  It's a cross section of thousands of Americans from all over.  Anyone can download the stats, but you'll need a computer program to make use of them.  The site has lots of articles using the stats, as well as some weighing the usefulness of the survey in general. 

I ran SPSS (data analysis software) on the relevant variables as part of a class on social science statistics.  You compare variables, and some come up significant.  The trends I mentioned are real at least up to 2004.  Naturally, they don't indicate questions like why, or what processes lead to the trends, or other things like that.  Everyone else in the class, since it was a class assignment, came up with the same answers.

And no, there weren't any indications for fiscally liberal or conservative for enough years to account for that time span.  There probably should be.  The political variables had to do with which side you tended to vote for, IIRC.

The nature of stats is that they do not have to account for your experiences or my experiences.  They usually get 1000 or so experiences, put the answers in a database, and tell us whether or not there is a statistical difference between variables.  That means that there will be Univesity post-docs who love Rush Limbaugh and 6th grade dropouts who have holy altars to Ted Kennedy.  There will be globetrotting conservatives and liberals who have never left their block.  There will be old liberals and young conservatives.  There will be billionaire liberals and impoverished conservatives.  It tells us that the trends of each of these statements are opposite, that's all.  That's percentages of people, not everyone.  Stats, like all evidence, are only part of the story. 



popeye1250 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 2:46:50 PM)

Lucern, yes, that's what I thought.
Statictics can be interesting but are also very vulnerable to being manipulated.
I can say for example that the rate of tiger attacks in Cleveland, Ohio is very low and I'd be correct of course.
I tend to take studies and statistics with a grain of salt.
They were "fun" while I was in college but like algebra I just don't see any use for them in real life.
That was a "fun" class though.
The only real exception to that would be the Census figures which I'd say would be the "most accurate" due to the fact that "everyone" supposedly participates.
I had a professor who told us; "it's "what" you ask, "how" you ask, "where" you ask and "who" you ask and yes even "why" you ask."
And she said that most political polls will be biased due to "who" is asking the questions or wants the results.
For example a candidate will never come out and say, "Hey, I'm behind in the polls by 10 points!"
I guess that's why they always have a "plus/minus 5 points" accuracy rate that's "built in" to most polls.
I always enjoyed that type of thing but a lot of what the professor told us was how (not) to make mistakes when doing studies and polls.
I remember that I did very well in that class as I found it very interesting.
That survey sounds somewhat familiar but I have to admit that it's been twenty some odd years now since I was in college! (Sheesh!)



Alumbrado -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 2:59:04 PM)

quote:

but like algebra I just don't see any use for them in real life.


Yeah. No one in real life uses any algebra after school.

[sm=biggrin.gif]



philosophy -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 3:02:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

but like algebra I just don't see any use for them in real life.


Yeah. No one in real life uses any algebra after school.

[sm=biggrin.gif]


x number of people agree with you...... y disagree.......



girl4you2 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 3:05:09 PM)



and z number of people haven't had their minds made up yet for them.



philosophy -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 3:07:02 PM)

..so is the relevant formula x + y = z - a?



popeye1250 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 3:12:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

but like algebra I just don't see any use for them in real life.


Yeah. No one in real life uses any algebra after school.

[sm=biggrin.gif]


x number of people agree with you...... y disagree.......


Philosophy, I was talking to an Electrical Engineer one time and I asked him if he ever used algebra and he said, "Hell no! It wouldn't even apply to what I do.I use trig and calculus."
Does *anyone* ever use it or do they just teach it in schools to torture people?



girl4you2 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 3:14:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

..so is the relevant formula x + y = z - a?




i think it's only slightly more complicated, in that it also involves (f)x, but otherwise, i think you've got it.



philosophy -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 3:14:49 PM)

.....i haven't used algebra in my work, to be fair........but i can see how it has applications elsewhere........



Alumbrado -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 3:16:31 PM)

These guys might have a little use for it...  yanno, just in case the Xbox breaks and they have to do stuff by hand...[;)]

http://www.gocoastguard.com/ratings/ftrate.htm


Seriously, I suppose that anyone working with trends, such as management, meteorology, and so forth uses algebra on the job.



Politesub53 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 4:22:24 PM)

Einstein used it a tad !
[8|]

I think political views are more to do with social surroundings, than hard wired. If you take most of the top Labour politicians in the UK, they all did the " left wing change the world " thing that was fashionable in the sixties, but once they got elected stances shifted for several reasons. One was to be electable, one was age and experience altered view points, sadly another reason was the whiff of power. Very few have stuck exactly to what they believed as teenagers, and i doubt many of us do. Views change in sync to ones own circumstances in life.

For most of us no one party represents everything we believe in, so we pick the lesser of two evils, and the party we think will benefit us the most. Generally no one is bothered about the bigger picture but just how it will affect their immediate circumstances.



popeye1250 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 4:53:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Einstein used it a tad !
[8|]

I think political views are more to do with social surroundings, than hard wired. If you take most of the top Labour politicians in the UK, they all did the " left wing change the world " thing that was fashionable in the sixties, but once they got elected stances shifted for several reasons. One was to be electable, one was age and experience altered view points, sadly another reason was the whiff of power. Very few have stuck exactly to what they believed as teenagers, and i doubt many of us do. Views change in sync to ones own circumstances in life.

For most of us no one party represents everything we believe in, so we pick the lesser of two evils, and the party we think will benefit us the most. Generally no one is bothered about the bigger picture but just how it will affect their immediate circumstances.


LOL, I think Einstein was *probably* more interested in physics and geometry.
As for those political polls about an hour ago one News Network put Guiliani just ahead of Romney another had Romney way ahead of Guiliani. Go figure!
The only "true" poll will come in November of 2008.
Then we'll know for sure.
I guess I just don't "fit" into any of those surveys , studies or polls.
The story of my life!



girl4you2 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 8:50:47 PM)



On a given finite Line
Which must no way incline;
To describe an equi--
--lateral Tri--
--A, N, G, L, E.
Now let A. B.
Be the given line
Which must no way incline;
The great Mathematician
Makes this Requisition,
That we describe an Equi--
--lateral Tri--
--angle on it:
Aid us, Reason--aid us, Wit!



philosophy -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/13/2007 8:14:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LOL, I think Einstein was *probably* more interested in physics and geometry.


...frighteningly E=MC2 is both physics and algebra.... [:D]



popeye1250 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/13/2007 9:19:02 AM)

Philosophy, to get back to the origional question I really don't think political views are hardwired.
The Democratic Party of my parents simply doesn't exist anymore!
That was a Party of Labor Unions and "for the workingman."
I have no idea what the Democratic Party of today stands for.
It's tough to imagine Teamster's Union members getting "excited" about Hillary Clinton for instance.
This (has) been an interesting thread so far.



Politesub53 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/13/2007 9:37:28 AM)

Popeye if its the same there as here in the UK, political parties seem to hoover as close to the middle as they need to to get elected.



popeye1250 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/13/2007 10:26:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Popeye if its the same there as here in the UK, political parties seem to hoover as close to the middle as they need to to get elected.


53, well here from what I can gather the Dems have substituted labor unions for illegal aliens (A huge mistake! They'll lose bigtime "again!") and under Bush, Republicans serve their paymasters in big corporations funneling them Taxdollars.
We now have two dysfunctional political partys.



Manawyddan -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/15/2007 6:35:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
This wreaks of partisan-interest entanglement..


Agreed. One must wonder about the phrasing of the questions.

For my part, I was extremely conservative when I was younger, but have tended increasingly leftwards as I've gotten older.



meatcleaver -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/15/2007 6:46:38 AM)

This thread has taken on a right/left flavour which I don't think the article is about. You can be a leftwing conservative and a rightwing liberal and vice versa.

Being conservative has nothing to do with being right or leftwing, just as being liberal has nothing to do with being left or rightwing, it is about a personal attitude. The Kremlin was stuffes with conservative thinkers and I don't think there were many capitalists there. The Whitehouse has been home to many liberals but I think they all professed to be capitalists. It makes sense that nature imposes on the human race people who are conservative and people who have a more flexible approach to life as it expands the chances of success amongst groups of people.

Whether we become conservatives or liberals in a political sense, I would guess is down to environment and upbringing.



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