Political views hardwired? (Full Version)

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Level -> Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 3:00:05 AM)

quote:

The brain neurons of liberals and conservatives fire differently when confronted with tough choices, suggesting that some political divides may be hard-wired, according a study released Sunday.

Aristotle may have been more on the mark than he realised when he said that man is by nature a political animal.
Dozens of previous studies have established a strong link between political persuasion and certain personality traits.
Conservatives tend to crave order and structure in their lives, and are more consistent in the way they make decisions. Liberals, by contrast, show a higher tolerance for ambiguity and complexity, and adapt more easily to unexpected circumstances.

The affinity between political views and "cognitive style" has also been shown to be heritable, handed down from parents to children, said the study, published in the British journal Nature Neuroscience.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070909/hl_afp/scienceneuroscience_070909173324



SusanofO -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 3:10:59 AM)

Well this might be true, and it is interesting. But then I wonder how would these folks explain why people's political views sometimes change as they get older? I know it can be true that many people can tend to become more conservative as they age, for example.

Or maybe that is explained in the part of the article that says nueral pathways are malleable and can change as the result of a person's experiences.

It is an intriguing article, IMO.

- Susan



meatcleaver -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 3:34:58 AM)

This might be true but we should be careful in applying it to party politics as there are conservatives both on the right, left and even centre of politics. The most conservative people I know are leftwing despite their veneer of liberalism.



CuriousLord -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 4:55:52 AM)

This wreaks of partisan-interest entanglement..



lucern -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 5:07:12 AM)

Well observed Susan, with regards for politics changing as people age.  They also change as people accumulate wealth, education, children, or travel abroad.  I wouldn't say there's any evidence for political views being hardwired here.  It suggests that people who think in certain ways might be more prone to one or the other way of political thinking.  Then again, political affiliation isn't a dichotomy, and the way this was set up seems to beg for such a dichotomy to be created.

Political affiliation is as socially embedded as politics are socially embedded.  The evidence of this that amuses me most at present is the dichotomy set up - or at least emphasized - by the article between liberal and conservative.  There's are social constructions and are results of a largely 2 party system of politics in the US idiom.  If you read the article and imagine the differences to be 'nurture' rather than 'nature', it makes a little more sense, at least to me.  The author does not come out and say what Level has asked in the OP, but they strongly hint at it.  Personality studies are often rooted in this kind of discourse, and they shamelessly references "Dozens" of studies (without referencing lol) that establish that link between personality and politics.  The biological root of personality has been at the least overblown, and at the worst fully misrecognized.  If personality and politics are social, as I contend, of course they'd be related. 





cyberdude611 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 8:05:34 AM)

It is true that every person thinks differently.

There is actually a quick psychological test that will tell you what you think politicallly. It's a picture of a forest and you ask the person what they see. Liberals are much more likely to say they see "trees." While conservatives are more likely to say they see a "forest." And the reason is because conservatives tend to think holistically since they are right-side dominant. Liberals are left-side dominant and tend to focus on the details.

Everyone is more dominant on side of the brain more than another. You of course use both sides, but one side tends to be more dominant in its processing of thought. Right-minded people tend to enjoy rock music, write fiction stories, can study and learn in a noisy environment, prefers working in a group, occasionally absent-minded, has an imaginantion and is creative, and can solve problems intuitively. Left-minded people tend to enjoy classical music, are more logical, likes non-fiction, can only study and learn in quiet environments, likes dogs, more rational and flexible, good at math and reading, likes to be organized, and likes to solve problems that arrive at a logical solution.

There is also big differences in thinking between the genders. Men think very differently than women. There two types of brain tissue: Gray and White matter. Men tend to think much more with gray matter and women tend to think more with white matter. Women also tend to use more of their frontal lobe than men. And they know this because women who have brain damage in the frontal lobe are much more destructive to cognitive ability than if a man had brain damage in the frontal lobe. Women's brains also seem to be able to link both sides of their brain better than men since white matter links the two sides.
As far as which gender is smarter... both are nearly identical in intelligence according to most psychologists. It is just that the brains of men and women think differently to get the same task completed. And we see this all the time every day. Women tend to want to do something one way while a man wants to do it a different way. Both may be an equally effective way to complete the task, but each gender thinks their way is better.



popeye1250 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 8:30:44 AM)

Hmmmm, I'm registered as "Unenrolled" which means I'm an Independant.
My family was "Irish-Catholic-Democrat from Boston."
I doubt that my parents would vote Democrat were they alive today though.
I'm a "Fiscal Conservative." I don't like our govt spending money on a lot of the things that they do and borrowing money to spend on things. I don't believe that our govt should be involved in "foreign aid" or Nation building or in the "U.N.", Nafta, Gatt, and Nato.
There's a lot of things that I think government "shouldn't" be doing.
Socially I guess you could call me a liberal.
I don't think that our govt should be involved in abortion either pro or con, I have no problem with gay marriage, want to smoke pot, go right ahead, I don't believe in "permits" for firearms, why do you need a "permit" to excercise a "right?" Do you need a "permit" to vote?
My parents who were Democrats wouldn't believe in any of those "liberal" things.
So, it looks like neither Democrats nor Republicans would "claim" me as one of their own.
So, I don't think Aristotle's theories about politics hold water.
"Theories" are just that, theories.



PlayfulOne -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 8:45:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Do you need a "permit" to vote?


Yes, it is called voter registration.  No registration, no vote.

K



pahunkboy -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 8:59:49 AM)

-left or right is no longer the call of the day. the call of teh day- is what will bring in most profit for our corporate masters, here on the plantation.




popeye1250 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 9:56:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Do you need a "permit" to vote?


Yes, it is called voter registration.  No registration, no vote.

K



Registering to vote is not a "permit."
You have, after registering to vote, the "right" to vote.
You are (not) "permitted" to vote by the government.
Registering is just making sure you are who you say you are and that you are legally qualified to vote.

PaHunk, that seems to be the way in Washington today with Bush.
Government for sale to the highest bidder!



RRafe -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 9:58:35 AM)

I can't say-being terribly moderate.

My flexibility has to do with what works-not ideology.



popeye1250 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 10:07:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lucern

Well observed Susan, with regards for politics changing as people age.  They also change as people accumulate wealth, education, children, or travel abroad.  I wouldn't say there's any evidence for political views being hardwired here.  It suggests that people who think in certain ways might be more prone to one or the other way of political thinking.  Then again, political affiliation isn't a dichotomy, and the way this was set up seems to beg for such a dichotomy to be created.

Political affiliation is as socially embedded as politics are socially embedded.  The evidence of this that amuses me most at present is the dichotomy set up - or at least emphasized - by the article between liberal and conservative.  There's are social constructions and are results of a largely 2 party system of politics in the US idiom.  If you read the article and imagine the differences to be 'nurture' rather than 'nature', it makes a little more sense, at least to me.  The author does not come out and say what Level has asked in the OP, but they strongly hint at it.  Personality studies are often rooted in this kind of discourse, and they shamelessly references "Dozens" of studies (without referencing lol) that establish that link between personality and politics.  The biological root of personality has been at the least overblown, and at the worst fully misrecognized.  If personality and politics are social, as I contend, of course they'd be related. 





Lucern, I think you're right about traveling making you change.
I became much more Conservative as a result of travelling to 40 some odd different countries.
It really is an eye opener and makes you appreciate what we have in first world countries.
I have a long list of countries that I would "not" go back to.
And I really don't care for the "two party system" in the U.S.
We really should have 7-10 partys.



Sinergy -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 10:21:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We really should have 7-10 partys.



In 1989, India had 653 political parties.  None with a clear majority.

Not saying I disagree with you, popeye1250, simply pointing out that there are other issues which impact the political process no matter which way you go.

Sinergy



PlayfulOne -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 12:17:07 PM)

You have the "right" to vote after you sign up for your "permit" (voter registration card).

Try not signing up for your "permit" and see if you get to vote.

K



Crush -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/10/2007 2:56:07 PM)

Actually, I came across a good analogy recently on our 10th anniversary "honeymoon" at Indian Rocks Springs:

Coral and Sponges are the same....Sponges are just soft coral.

Conservatives are hard coral -- they tend to chip.    Liberals are sponges -- they tend to give with whatever the ocean brings.  But both are anchored to the sea floor.

Libertarians...hmmm.....maybe they are smart enough not to get anchored down ?

(Just kicking up some mud...)





lucern -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/11/2007 4:05:59 PM)

Popeye - that's interesting about how travel changed your political views towards conservatism.  Statistically it's the other way around.  Then again, that's why you don't use stats when individuals are there for the asking.  FYI, of those I mentioned, the trend in the US is generally:

The more wealth you have, the more likely you are to be conservative.
The more children you have, the more likely you are to be conservative.
The more education you have, the more likely you are to be liberal.
The more you've travelled, the more likely you are to be liberal. 

The stats are fun to play with if you've got the knowhow and can be insightful if you're smart about it, but they of course have that caveat I mentioned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We really should have 7-10 partys.



In 1989, India had 653 political parties.  None with a clear majority.

Not saying I disagree with you, popeye1250, simply pointing out that there are other issues which impact the political process no matter which way you go.

Sinergy


France has a decent compromise for the many party/few party problem.  In the simplest terms possible and my rudimentary understanding of it, they vote twice.  The first time through, people tend to vote for those they like most.  Those are tallied and only the two frontrunners are are in the next ballot.  This isn't perfect, but I'd take it over the winner-take-all approach, so that third parties in the US aren't considered 'spoilers' for the major party politics.  One might argue that the victors of their elections more acurately reflect the will of the majority than in the US system.  Of course, their terms are longer, so they had better get it right. 



popeye1250 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/11/2007 4:33:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lucern

Popeye - that's interesting about how travel changed your political views towards conservatism.  Statistically it's the other way around.  Then again, that's why you don't use stats when individuals are there for the asking.  FYI, of those I mentioned, the trend in the US is generally:

The more wealth you have, the more likely you are to be conservative.
The more children you have, the more likely you are to be conservative.
The more education you have, the more likely you are to be liberal.
The more you've travelled, the more likely you are to be liberal. 

The stats are fun to play with if you've got the knowhow and can be insightful if you're smart about it, but they of course have that caveat I mentioned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We really should have 7-10 partys.



In 1989, India had 653 political parties.  None with a clear majority.

Not saying I disagree with you, popeye1250, simply pointing out that there are other issues which impact the political process no matter which way you go.

Sinergy


France has a decent compromise for the many party/few party problem.  In the simplest terms possible and my rudimentary understanding of it, they vote twice.  The first time through, people tend to vote for those they like most.  Those are tallied and only the two frontrunners are are in the next ballot.  This isn't perfect, but I'd take it over the winner-take-all approach, so that third parties in the US aren't considered 'spoilers' for the major party politics.  One might argue that the victors of their elections more acurately reflect the will of the majority than in the US system.  Of course, their terms are longer, so they had better get it right. 



Lucern, wow, that's strange!
I don't have a great deal of wealth but I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberal.
I don't have any children. (Not conservative socially)
I'm educated (B.S.)  (Fiscally conservative and an isolationist)
And I'm extremely well travelled. (Fiscal conservative and isolationist.)
Wow, so much for stats! LOL!
In my humble opinion if more people were better traveled they'd be more isolationist and more conservative not more liberal.
I did a lot of travelling when I was young and in the Navy and supposedly, "more liberal."
And, I came from the bluest of blue states - Massachusetts.
I think travelling is the best education you can get.
Nothing like a visit to a shit pit like Haiti to make you very grateful for what we have in the U.S.
You're right about stats of course.
Same thing with "polls."
Lucern, I don't get the connection about travelling making you more liberal.
If that were the case I'd be Howard Dean.



lucern -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/11/2007 6:08:55 PM)

Well Popeye - you're an 'against the grain' sorta fellow lol. 

I had access to the general social survey data and a nice stats program when I ran those tests.   I no longer have the program but that's the way the "Have you travelled abroad?" question came out, over the past 40 years.  In any case, the data could just as easily mean that people who are more liberal are more likely to travel abroad.  Probably a bit of both.  The stats don't answer questions like that, though it'd have been interesting if they had thought to have people identify as conservative or liberal fiscally and socially.   The stats are useful to find large-scale trends rather than 'the way things are' for everyone. 



popeye1250 -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 12:40:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lucern

Well Popeye - you're an 'against the grain' sorta fellow lol. 

I had access to the general social survey data and a nice stats program when I ran those tests.   I no longer have the program but that's the way the "Have you travelled abroad?" question came out, over the past 40 years.  In any case, the data could just as easily mean that people who are more liberal are more likely to travel abroad.  Probably a bit of both.  The stats don't answer questions like that, though it'd have been interesting if they had thought to have people identify as conservative or liberal fiscally and socially.   The stats are useful to find large-scale trends rather than 'the way things are' for everyone. 



Lucern, that's very interesting.
You would think that conservative people would be the ones to do more travelling as they seem to be the ones who have the money to afford it. Especially these days with exchange rates being what they are.
I know a Ph.D who's a bio chemist at Tufts U. who'd like nothing better than to be a sniper! (Bollox, I should have joined the Army!") He's very well travelled comming from Ireland and has been to most countries in Europe as well as to the U.S. and Canada. And he hates "liberals!" lol
As for me I did a lot of travelling *before* I was educated so that in itself goes against the grain of that study as well.
But I tend to be socially liberal.
As for being "conservative" I focus most of that *against* the govt i.e. I'm for gay marriage (social liberal) but don't spend one penny of my money on foreign aid.(fiscal conservative)
It sounds like I'm a real Independant.
I've always loved to travel though.
When I was 11 years old I took a train across country and back all by myself in 1962.
Do they mention fiscal and social conservatives and liberals in that study?
I know conservatives who like to spend it like it's going out of style and liberals who probably still have the first dollar they ever made.
I wonder what parameters they used in that study?
And what criteria did they use for being "conservative" and "liberal?"
I don't consider myself either.
Also, how old was that study?
Those "conclusions" seem somewhat suspect as being too general.
Especially the one about having more children and thus being "conservative".
Obviously they didn't question people in large *inner cities* that are not the bastions of the GOP where large families are the norm and vote for liberal candidates by 8-1!
It sounds like someone didn't get out of the lab as much as they probably should have.
Or maybe they only questioned too small of a group?
And the last one; "the more you've travelled the more likely you are to be liberal" makes no sense at all!
Oh? ...Why?
Do you remember who did that study?



Stephann -> RE: Political views hardwired? (9/12/2007 6:40:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Well this might be true, and it is interesting. But then I wonder how would these folks explain why people's political views sometimes change as they get older? I know it can be true that many people can tend to become more conservative as they age, for example.

Or maybe that is explained in the part of the article that says nueral pathways are malleable and can change as the result of a person's experiences.

It is an intriguing article, IMO.

- Susan


lucern is dead on.

People learn, grow, and change as they get older.  Their personal and professional situations change. At 20, we think "I have my whole life to do what I want."  At 60, I suspect I'll be thinking "if I wanted to do something, I better freakin do it now!"  Security becomes far more important at 60; the first hints of short breath, checking monthly for lumps all over our bodies, knowing that 'the day' is coming soon.  One cannot work at 60 the way they did at 20.  One cannot call their parents to come bail them out of jail at 60.  At 60, sleeping in one's car is far less appealing than at 20.

Just a few thoughts.

Stephan



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