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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 10:17:58 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:


cyberdude611

But you forget that a vast majority of the soldiers over there DO support the war. A former Marine was on TV the other day. He was injured in Iraq and he said he would go back if he could.


This does not in anywise constitute the vast majority.  You would need AT LEAST two or three other such anecdotes to settle my mind on the issue.


'CYBERDUDE IS FORCING THE MARINES IN IRAQ TO LIKE THE WAR'

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 10:57:55 AM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:


cyberdude611

But you forget that a vast majority of the soldiers over there DO support the war. A former Marine was on TV the other day. He was injured in Iraq and he said he would go back if he could.


This does not in anywise constitute the vast majority.  You would need AT LEAST two or three other such anecdotes to settle my mind on the issue.


'CYBERDUDE IS FORCING THE MARINES IN IRAQ TO LIKE THE WAR'

Ron


A hard statistic that is difficult to put aside is that 83% of active military voted for George W. Bush in the last election. If they really hated being in Iraq and disagreed with the war, wouldn't they be voting for Kerry?

USA Today did a poll back during the election and only 13% of the military said they were registered Democrats. 59% said they were registered Republicans and 20% said they were independants.

The vast majority of active personnel supported and voted for Bush.

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 11:10:44 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Then by your own synergistical computation skills, 83% of the forces are against the war in Iraq at present. It all ended when they cakked Saddam.  That was the deal, and it is obviously why they voted for him.  Now that the lie has been put to, there is no other possible spin to put on the numbers.

Ron
(don't fuck with me on numbers, I make them mean whatever I need them to mean for a living, and am paid well to do that, and to coach the CEO and CFO on the surrealistic arguments that they need to convince whoever of whatever.)  I am a giant in that endeavor, you are just out here fuckin' around, by comparison.

RON IS FORCING YOU TO BELIEVE CYBERDUDES NUMBERS MEAN SOMETHING.

And to save you some time: I don't see 83% active here and in fact the numbers here would not indicate that.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

(I showed you mine, now show me yours)  LOLOLOLOL (arms lenght of course, C )

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/6/2007 11:24:49 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 11:15:46 AM   
Durus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
I've noticed an interesting omission, though. I've yet to see anyone say, "I believe in the Iraq war, and I'm enlisting to fight it." Support for the war seems to rest on the handy assumption that other people will attend to the minor details of fighting and dying.


I don't understand your logic. That is akin to saying that people that support peace in Iraq are hypocrites if they haven't joined the peace corp or we shouldn't support in law and order because we aren't cops.

Really aren't you suggesting that only those people that are active military, and one would presume are in combat roles, should be able to have an opinion. I'm willing to let them decide if we should stay or go if everyone else is.

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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 11:42:38 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Mnot, there is nothing at all about active duty millitary on your link, it is completely meaningless.  Perhaps people who already agree with you will overlook that.  It does say that most people who ever served, voted for Bush, that includes the angry Nam era conscript vets, as well as all those who woke up and realised they were "monsters fighting for xxx oil".

Interestingly it shows that the majority of HS dropouts voted for Kerry, ( go back and look a past elections, they always do), and the majority of college graduates voted for Bush.

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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 11:45:28 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611


A hard statistic that is difficult to put aside is that 83% of active military voted for George W. Bush in the last election. If they really hated being in Iraq and disagreed with the war, wouldn't they be voting for Kerry?

USA Today did a poll back during the election and only 13% of the military said they were registered Democrats. 59% said they were registered Republicans and 20% said they were independants.

The vast majority of active personnel supported and voted for Bush.


This poll had a very small reply considering how many emails were sent out. Even the USA today article says it cant be classed as scientific.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-10-03-bush-troops_x.htm

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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 11:59:42 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		that is correct---- it says nothing about active duty on my link, thats why I was asking where yours was, dude!!!!  Let's not make a big deal out of your lack of reading comprension and who overlooked what.
You don't turn it into bullshit, and I won't expose it, K?
Ron

Furthermore 18-29 year olds (the bulk of the cannon fodder in the military) were the lowest percentile voters for Bush. Additionally, only 57% of anyone who had been in the military voted for Bush according to that exit poll, that is why I am saying the numbers I have don't tend to indicate any 83% of military voting for shitforbrains.

nor does your link in fact state anything of the kind you attribute to it, by the way.....as it progresses it just keeps getting curiouser and curiouser-----

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/6/2007 12:06:49 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 1:15:00 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

But you forget that a vast majority of the soldiers over there DO support the war. A former Marine was on TV the other day. He was injured in Iraq and he said he would go back if he could.



So because your opinion poll states that those people support the war, how about we do this.

Take another poll:

Anybody who supports the war can either

1)  Go fight

2)  Co-sign a loan to pay for keeping us over there.

Then when it works out the way it will eventually work out and we leave, you people can pay the tab, and the
rest of us wont get stuck with the check after your little party.

Sinergy

p.s.  Doubt the people supporting the war will be that supportive if you do that.



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 1:26:35 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		I am astonished that a hard statistic is receiving such backlash, here.......

Am I the only one?

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 1:27:45 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Everybody paying taxes is a mandatory co-signer on loans for things we don't want... like the massive subsidies lining the pockets of politicians from both parties, and the failed social experiments at home and abroad.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 4:11:49 PM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

We've had a lot of posts about Iraq here at dear old Collarme, and supporters of the war have said many things about why we needed to invade Iraq and must remain there now.

I've noticed an interesting omission, though. I've yet to see anyone say, "I believe in the Iraq war, and I'm enlisting to fight it." Support for the war seems to rest on the handy assumption that other people will attend to the minor details of fighting and dying.


You don't know many active-duty military people, do you?


pollux:
I know lots of active duty military.  The warriors amongst them could care less who the target is...it is all about the "rock and roll".
The non warriors are not much in favor of the war in Iraq as they view it as a war of aggression and aggrandizement in which they are asked to bleed and die for the benefit of the rich.
thompson


Great.  I know a lot too, and while they hold a variety of opinions on the Iraq war specifically, to a man, none of them accepts this "chickenhawk" crap.  They see it as their choice to be a professional soldier.  They do not expect EVERYONE to make the same choice, and at the same time they understand that our society is based around a system of values where EVERYONE has a right to express an opinion - pro OR con -- regardless of whether they are a combat vet or not.

So, the next time you're hanging out with your combat buddies ask them what they think of a Constitutional amendment requiring the President of the US to be a military vet with combat experience (or to be eligible and to volunteer for combat), because that's exactly where the logic of this bullshit "chickenhawk" argument leads.

Btw, I'm not active duty military (too old unfortunately), but I'm a civilian volunteer attached to the US Army Reserve Casualty Assistance Office, so anyone who thinks I'm removed from the human cost of this war or that I have no right to express an opinion for or against it, can kiss my ass.

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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 4:30:02 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

We've had a lot of posts about Iraq here at dear old Collarme, and supporters of the war have said many things about why we needed to invade Iraq and must remain there now.

I've noticed an interesting omission, though. I've yet to see anyone say, "I believe in the Iraq war, and I'm enlisting to fight it." Support for the war seems to rest on the handy assumption that other people will attend to the minor details of fighting and dying.


I offered to enlist, but I told them I wouldn't go unless I could always wear my "FUCK BUSH" T-Shirt.

I was declined.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 5:23:49 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

We've had a lot of posts about Iraq here at dear old Collarme, and supporters of the war have said many things about why we needed to invade Iraq and must remain there now.

I've noticed an interesting omission, though. I've yet to see anyone say, "I believe in the Iraq war, and I'm enlisting to fight it." Support for the war seems to rest on the handy assumption that other people will attend to the minor details of fighting and dying.


You don't know many active-duty military people, do you?



Truth be told, I don't. And I'm sure my life is poorer for it. But I was focusing specifically on CM posters.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to pollux)
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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 5:27:19 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I've noticed an interesting omission, though. I've yet to see anyone say, "I believe in the Iraq war, and I'm enlisting to fight it." Support for the war seems to rest on the handy assumption that other people will attend to the minor details of fighting and dying.


Two things.
1.  They're there.


Who's where?

quote:

2.  Just because someone believes in something doesn't mean they're willing to pay for it.  Want to critize them?  Tell me if you think starvation in Africia is a good thing to fight, then tell me how you're signed up for a mission trip over there to help things out.


I take your point and readily acknowledge that I don't act on my beliefs as much as I should.

That said, I don't think your starvation-in-Africa analogy quite works. Africa's woes, which predate my birth, stem from a variety of complex factors. The war in Iraq was the result of a conscious decision to invade.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 5:32:37 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

But you forget that a vast majority of the soldiers over there DO support the war. A former Marine was on TV the other day. He was injured in Iraq and he said he would go back if he could.


Good point, but I wasn't focused on the soldiers in Iraq. I was observing a pattern here at CM.


quote:

Its a big argument used by the Dems that if you support war, you should fight it. And that's just a political cheap shot. Not everyone can fight a war. Not everyone can play football. You have to be of certain physical type to play that game or else you are just not going to survive your first hit. Some people have health issues. Some people are single-parents. Everyone's situation is different. Are you saying it is wrong for those people to favor the war? I guess you think that only healthy 20-30 year olds are allowed to support a war?


People can favor anything they like. Free country and all that. I was simply observing that none of our CM posters seem to favor the war to the point of actually fighting it themselves.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 5:40:37 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Durus

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
I've noticed an interesting omission, though. I've yet to see anyone say, "I believe in the Iraq war, and I'm enlisting to fight it." Support for the war seems to rest on the handy assumption that other people will attend to the minor details of fighting and dying.


I don't understand your logic. That is akin to saying that people that support peace in Iraq are hypocrites if they haven't joined the peace corp or we shouldn't support in law and order because we aren't cops.

Really aren't you suggesting that only those people that are active military, and one would presume are in combat roles, should be able to have an opinion. I'm willing to let them decide if we should stay or go if everyone else is.


Again, I'm not denying anyone the right to support anything. I'm simply observing that it's easy to support something when you're safely sheltered from the costs of it.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Durus)
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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 5:47:05 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

But you forget that a vast majority of the soldiers over there DO support the war. A former Marine was on TV the other day. He was injured in Iraq and he said he would go back if he could.

Its a big argument used by the Dems that if you support war, you should fight it. And that's just a political cheap shot. Not everyone can fight a war. Not everyone can play football. You have to be of certain physical type to play that game or else you are just not going to survive your first hit. Some people have health issues. Some people are single-parents. Everyone's situation is different. Are you saying it is wrong for those people to favor the war? I guess you think that only healthy 20-30 year olds are allowed to support a war?

By flooding the military with people who are not physically able to meet the demands, you weaken the force as a whole. And if you ask our soldiers over there, they dont want people there who dont want to be there to help win. They dont want a military draft. It will hurt morale.

You know, Bill Clinton was a draft dodger. The Dems didnt seem to have any problem when he sent our boys over to fight in Somalia or Hati or Bosnia. I didnt hear a peep. But if a Republican president avoided the draft...the Democrats start whining. You guys got a double-standard going there....



Cyberdude611 :

If the genie in the lamp would grant me one wish for the month - that wish would be for him to take away your ability to watch/listen to any type of television for the next year.

I have never seen/read another collarme poster --that regularly posts on politics-- who has been marginalized by status-quo /network-propaganda at the level you have.

Dude....honestly....I don't think you could make it for two weeks without watching the network news and then parroting the propaganda /political analysis back here on the collarme message board.




- R



< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 9/6/2007 5:48:05 PM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 5:48:18 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

We've had a lot of posts about Iraq here at dear old Collarme, and supporters of the war have said many things about why we needed to invade Iraq and must remain there now.

I've noticed an interesting omission, though. I've yet to see anyone say, "I believe in the Iraq war, and I'm enlisting to fight it." Support for the war seems to rest on the handy assumption that other people will attend to the minor details of fighting and dying.


I offered to enlist, but I told them I wouldn't go unless I could always wear my "FUCK BUSH" T-Shirt.

I was declined.


Should have worn your Buck Fush T-shirt.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Griswold)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 5:55:04 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

When I assert that a surrender/retreat would be a bad choice, I'm saying that knowing it places two brothers in harm's way.  Does that count? 


It does to me. It means, I think, that you're weighing your views carefully, with a vivid awareness of the potential costs.

I hope your brothers come home safely and will keep them in my prayers.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The One Thing No One Says About Iraq - 9/6/2007 6:02:52 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Anybody who supports the war can either

1)  Go fight

2)  Co-sign a loan to pay for keeping us over there.

Then when it works out the way it will eventually work out and we leave, you people can pay the tab, and the
rest of us wont get stuck with the check after your little party.

Sinergy

p.s.  Doubt the people supporting the war will be that supportive if you do that.





      Let's have a little fun with your logic, Sinergy.  How about Progressives take on all the obligations of the welfare state?  All the third generation, wastes of skin who have never worked and never will, can move into your neighborhood, with your taxes paying 85% of the rent, while the gang-tagging drives your property values down.  There will need to be a special line at the grocery store where only liberals ever get stuck standing there hearing "what you mean I can't buy Tanqueray with my food stamps" while their ice cream melts in the cart.

      Welcome to the wonderful world of Democracy.  Your side lost.  If you don't care for it, do feel free to explore your options under other systems, in other places.

      Iraq is America's problem.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Sinergy)
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