Could anorexia be a rational life choice?

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Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/3/2007 5:19:06 PM

MaisonDeSade

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Two or three days ago I was on the net I don't even remember what I was doing and I discovered the pro-ana movement. There is apparently a whole subculture of people who view anorexia as a lifestyle choice, rather than an illness. Since I weighed 107 pounds my junior year of high school I found this interesting. On the one hand they seem to be mostly kooks. On the other they point out anorexia is charecterized by a warped body image where you still see yourself as fat even though you are not. Which was true of me and obviously true of some of them. But if they are posting pictures on the internet bragging about how thin they are and as 'thinspiration' then some of them obviously don't have a warped self image, and just choose to be extremely thin. So I don't know what to think about it, but it interests me. It seems to me that an adult can choose to live however they wish. Even if that choice is self destructive. And at what point can an outsider say it is self destructive. Obviously not in the case of people who do not realize what they are doing, through a warped self image or some illness but in the case of a twenty-five year old woman (or man, they do exist) who posts pictures of their skeletal body with 'I love my BONES' written on their side with a magic marker. It's a bit disturbing.I would say my final opinion is it is a personal choice, but a choice that is on a slippery slope toward being unhealthy. I would be interested in what others think.

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/3/2007 5:35:41 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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I think the fact that anorexic's choose their behavior based on fear, based on external perceptions, based on feeling lack of control in their world and trying to block that is what the problem is.

If they made their choices based on love, acceptance, stability, and security- I'd be more inclined to support it.

Either way, I won't really stop someone who chooses to kill themselves if I feel they are making their own free informed choice.

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/3/2007 5:49:19 PM

hmmmmnbird

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Could anorexia be a rational choice, you ask.
I think the key word is RATIONAL. Yes, it can be a choice.Suicide , drinking, eating, gambling or using drugs excessively can be choices. ( NOTE: I don't want to get into the 'is addiction a disease?" debate. I am talking about the behavior of drinking or using drugs, not the underlying causes.) Not taking one's meds, or seeking treatment when one has a disease or illness can be choices. None of these are healthy or rational choices, in my opinion.
I have seen the website you talk about. In my opinion, these people are simply rationalizing so they can continue an unhealthy behavior, just as an alcoholic may rationalize "well, I've never missed worked because of drinking, so I'm not an alcoholic"
While it is true that "anorexia is characteriized by a warped body image", that is not the definition of anorexia or sole factor in when one is diagnosing it. One has to look at a whole spectrum of symptoms and behaviors.
Edited to add the disclaimer : I am a retired counselor; my practice specialized in eating disorders, but it has been over 10 years since I retired, so I am not up on the current literature and findings. I do not consider myself an 'expert', but I do have some expertise on the subject. The above is my opinion, based on that knowledge and expertise.

< Message edited by hmmmmnbird -- 9/3/2007 5:55:57 PM >

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/3/2007 6:25:15 PM

Petronius

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One can't argue that some choice is "rational" when conscious thought is not part of the choice.

Drinking can be a rational choice; compulsion drinking is not. Suicide may be a rational choice under certain conditions and a non-rational one under others. Gambling, even excessively, may be a rational choice; compulsive gambling is not.

Hypothetically, I could see where extreme weight loss would be a rational choice. Imagine a movie being made about anorexia where the producers want a star who weighs 80 pounds. Some actress may diet down to that figure for the million bucks she'll get as a star. But that was not anorexia; that's economics. That's a conscious choice by the actress.

Opinions may be private and individual. So might feelings.

But facts, logic, and rationality are common to us all. Rational decisions may be judged as rational or irrational by our fellow human beings because the basis for the judgement is common to them. One cannot meaningfully state that one's irrational decision is really rational because one has a private rationality or a special dictionary with a unique definition of the word.

Sadly, however, the are people who try to deny rather well-established science because it goes against their economic, social, family, personal etc. interests.

I recall talking to a few very large people who claimed that excess weight doesn't cause heart disease; heart disease causes people to put excess weight

I've also spoken to people making their living in the "alternate medicine" game who claim that germs don't cause disease; disease causes germs.

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/3/2007 6:42:24 PM

petdave

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Certainly. To understand it as such simply requires giving up the assumption that everyone organizes their value system the same way that you do... Health (the rules for obtaining which are subject to disagreement, seem to change on an all but hourly basis), attractiveness (a subjective and fluid concept), tasty, tasty food (also subjective)... All have different values to different people. Assuming that a decision cannot be rational simply because that's not the decision you would make is foolish.

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/3/2007 6:52:51 PM

popeye1250

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I wouldn't mind having a touch of it, I could stand to lose a few pounds.
"Tom you look great! What happened?"
"Ah nothing, I had a touch of Anorexia for a month or so."

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/3/2007 6:53:57 PM

Petronius

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I don't ask my fellow human beings to accept my decisions as rational because I make them. Whether my personal decisions are rational or not depends not a wit on me or my subjectivity; the determination about rationality is made by objective standards that exist outside my head.

However, the crank argument that their unique view is rational because everybody disagrees with it is just that: a crank view.

So is the attempt to subjectivize everything. We cannot measure "weight" with 100% accuracy nor diagnose "heart disease" similarly, nor come up with a definition of "heart disease" that 100% of all doctors would agree with. But we can still say, rationally and objectively, that there are casual links between excessive weight and heart disease.

We cannot measure distance with 100% accuracy but that does not negate the effectiveness of rulers.

And the fact that we cannot measure distance with 100% accuracy certainly does not support the crank's view that an inch is longer than a mile.

One can of course claim that anorexia or compulsive drinking are "rational choices" by redefining "common value systems;" that does not make them rational.

Things do not, contrary to Clinton's claim, depend "on what your definition of 'is' is."

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/3/2007 10:22:39 PM

Tajj

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In theory, pro-ana people seem to make a bit of sense. A lot of them want more control in their lives, and thus they feel empowered by at least controlling their own bodies.

I don't think it's okay, though. It's unhealthy, and what migh tstart as reclaiming one's own body is likely to end it a slow death. If they want to feel empowered, they should get a hobby. I'm sure there weren't too many anorexic kids in the 1800s, when it was seen as attractive to have meet on your bones. Thinking about stuff like this makes me feel disgusted with the state of the world. People are given so many messages that are bad for them, and behavior like this is encouraged, if inadvertently.

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/3/2007 10:35:35 PM

IBNotADominate

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Research shows that folks who live on a low calorie diet, underweight by most standards, will live longer ... on the whole. However, that is generally only true if you are younger. As you get older & more likely to wind up in a hospital, research shows you'll have a better chance of surviving the hospital stay if you have a bit of energy stored in your hump. Most folks will lose 10-30# during a hospital stay, and I've seen one guy lose 140# on a protracted stay (starting at 450#).

Nothing wrong with living on the light side of a diet (hell, I could use some of that myself :-) ... but once one is slightly underweight, ya gotta know when (and be able) to level off & maintain, rather than keep losing. When you are living with no reserves, there's a fine balance between healthy & unhealthy.

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/3/2007 10:59:25 PM

lovetokissnylons

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IBNotADominate

Research shows that folks who live on a low calorie diet, underweight by most standards, will live longer ... on the whole.

Nothing wrong with living on the light side of a diet (hell, I could use some of that myself :-) ... but once one is slightly underweight, ya gotta know when (and be able) to level off & maintain, rather than keep losing. .

Good thought, IB. Maybe we can -- if not exactly hijack this thread -- at least nudge it in a promising direction. I'm also fascinated by the thought of very low calorie diets improving the length of lifespan (I say "the thought of" because I like to eat and so have trouble putting that theory into practice, myself).

Do you, or any others reading this thread, have any helpful suggestions about how or when to recognize the fine line, and how or when to decide when calorie deprivation becomes UNhealthy instead of healthy ?

Thanks

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/4/2007 12:21:16 AM

CuriousLord

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I used to have a sub who got into this with her friends

She started at about 150 lbs. She ended at 78 lbs. In a hospital bed.

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/4/2007 12:31:26 AM

Rule

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In most cases a disease is the cause of the behaviour.

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/4/2007 12:39:29 AM

MissMagnolia

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If a person with schizophrenia chooses to stop taking medication and becomes psychotic (and kills or commits suicide as a result) is that a rational life choice?

Anorexic's have a distorted body image. That is not rational. That is no "being in control" of one's self. It's a loss of control. It is not rational to starve one's body to the point that major and minor organs shut down, and death ensues.

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/4/2007 2:26:57 AM

hmmmmnbird

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovetokissnylons

Do you, or any others reading this thread, have any helpful suggestions about how or when to recognize the fine line, and how or when to decide when calorie deprivation becomes UNhealthy instead of healthy ?

Thanks

I beleive it becomes unhealthy when one beocomes obsessive about it. If calorie deprivation is controlling your every thought and action, then it is unhealthy. Few people would argue that exercise is a good thing. Compulsive exercise, however, is unhealthy, and is becoming a big problem in our society, along with eating disorders.
I was origianlly going to say it becomes unhealthy when one shows signs of it causing problems, but one continues anyway. However, I think it can become unhealthy before one has any symptoms. Are you asking how one can know when to stop to prevent having unhealthy results, or symptoms ?
My answer : all things in moderation. It is just as unhealthy to consume too few calories as to consume too many calories. How much is too few or too many? You and your health care provider need to discuss that and determine that for you and your lifestyle.
I personally think it's more important to focus on eating the right kinds of foods for your body and health, and pay attention to your hunger levels, rather than counting calories. That is much healthier for me.

< Message edited by hmmmmnbird -- 9/4/2007 2:29:01 AM >

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/4/2007 2:56:56 AM

HurtU

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quote:

Do you, or any others reading this thread, have any helpful suggestions about how or when to recognize the fine line, and how or when to decide when calorie deprivation becomes UNhealthy instead of healthy ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovetokissnylons

I don't pretend to be an expert ... not even well-read on the topic of bulemia/anorexia. Just had a bulemic sub, and 2 underweight slaves. There are plenty of folks who know more than I. But just spit-balling here ... if friends start telling you that you are too thin ... then you are over the line. If you try to eat to gain weight, but can't ... you are over the line. And, under any conditions, binge & purge is a red flag that a person has a major problem.

For someone who has a BMI below 19, then you need to eat to maintain that height/weight ratio & not lose any more weight. If you can't (or don't) do that, then you have a problem and counselling, at the very least, would be in order. But, I think the first indicator, would be what your friends are saying to you ... and about you.

I'm the perfect hunter-gatherer. If I go long enough w/o eating, I'll get mildly hungry ... but if I happen to be busy working & can't take a break ... or if I'm out doing something & food isn't handy, the I just push through it and within an hour or 90 min, the feeling of hunger passes and I get ketotic & even more energy than before. A great asset when man lived off of a few nuts & berries between killing the occasional mastadon. Lots of times I'll eat in the morning & work all day w/o bothering to eat til I get home in the evening ... and then only browse. With a little exercise, it works to lose a few pounds for me ... but I'm statistically at least 15-20# heavier than my ideal weight. No big deal if I live off my hump for a few days. But I can & will eat anything that can't move fast enough to escape me (& won't bite back). The biggest threat to my weight is visiting New Orleans! :-)

(in reply to lovetokissnylons)

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/4/2007 3:48:34 AM

SusanofO

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I suppose if it wasn't a compulsion (as someone mentioned)- then it could be - but my impression is that it's not a "rational decision".

I had it in high school. I am 5'6" and my weight went from 126 pounds (healthy for my height) to 93 pounds (way too thin) in about 6 weeks. I remember I was constantly thinking about food - I just never managed to eat any (or much of it, anyway).

I was always baking cookies for other members of my family (I was obsessed with food, even if I wasn't eating it) and exercised at least 3 hours a day: Bike riding, swimming or aerobics.

My mom used to be a part-time model, and she thought I looked great. She helped me shop for smaller-sized clothes, as I lost weight, and used to help me take my body measurements. I had a 21-inch waist-line (without a Corset!)

I am not blaming my Anorexic period on my mother, though. I'm not. Because neither of us really even knew what was going on, at the time.

This was in 1973-74, before this disease even had a name, and before Karen Carpenter (the famous singer) actually died of it. There were no "Treatment Centers" for Anorexia at the time. Nobody really knew what it was, back then.

What I remember about that period in my life (and it lasted over 6 months) is that I wasn't really very aware I was doing anything harmful to myself - I wouldn't really call it a decision to participate in Anorexic behavior. It gradually abated as my family became alarmed when my weight got into the low 90's, and another year of school began. They'd watch me eat, and make sure I ate dinner, etc. My dad was particularly concerned.

But I can still name, to this day, the calorie count in practically any food you could name.

At the time, I just thought I was "dieting."

BUT - My periods stopped happening, I became Anemic, and I fainted at my Summer job and had to be sent home (and also at a Swimming pool that Summer) - so I was definitely not living in a healthy way, at the time.

Luckily (or not) for me today, my "batttle" is more often how to lose 5 or 10 pounds, than how to gain 25 pounds. But I'd rather live the way I live now.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/4/2007 4:10:58 AM >

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/4/2007 5:15:22 AM

lovetokissnylons

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Hmmmmnbird and HurtU, thanks for helping with answers. Letting hunger, rather than the clock, dictate when and how much you eat is a great strategy -- although hard to do !

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/4/2007 7:30:01 AM

LaTigresse

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This subject is a tough one for me.

Not all that long ago someone very special to me died. A beautiful young woman who would have been 29 her last birthday. Tall, at 5'10", willowy and just simply stunning.

When I first met her she weighed around 127 pounds. She was a sucessful photo model, had done runway modeling when she was younger, and was beginning a promising acting career. Her agent wanted her to do more modeling but she needed to get back to her proper weight of 115#. Remember she was 5'10". She had already had breast implants at a young age to be more "marketable" and then had to have them redone to keep them natural looking. 2 1/2 years ago her rock, her older brother was diagnosed with cancer. She put everything on hold to care for him. She lost more weight. He died 6 months later. She lost even more weight and lost her appetite. Designers LOVED her new look and clamored for her to do runway work. She began living full time in Paris, always working and always far too thin.

A little less than a year ago she died. The medical report says complications due to pneumonia. The truth is far more complex. At 5'10" she had no business being the weight she was, around 100# or so.

Sadly, she was just beginning to find happiness. She was accepting that she could be loved, that her love and lifestyle choice was one she could be proud of and she has realized a dream, to become a mother. A newly adopted little girl was orphaned again and I lost my soulmate.

Certainly it can be a lifestyle choice, but it will be a very short life. And it is a very painful illness to watch for those that love them.

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/4/2007 8:33:02 AM

toservez

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I would use the example of nymphomania.

A person calling themselves a nympho may or may not be a actual nymphomaniac but consciously can control their actions to be able to walk up to the line of doing permanent destructive behavior.

So people who think anorexia is or can be an actual rational life choice may copy many of the elements and this may include some health problems we would not wish upon ourselves but are still able to keep themselves alive.

People with the actual disease anorexia are irrational by nature of their beliefs that many can actually be easily dismissed by factual evidence and if go untreated or cannot accept what they really are will die. The disease anorexia is very serious, prevalent and devastating to see up close both in the physical appearance and their mental thoughts. When I come across it in my work it is always get to me emotionally and I seriously doubt seeing people with the actual disease that many people could actually call it a rational life choice.

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RE: Could anorexia be a rational life choice? - 9/4/2007 9:57:36 AM

leatherette

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Thank you LaTigresse.

That was very generous for you to share. Such a painful situation and so sad. Blessings.

OP : ana ain't about being a skinny chick who is hot and perky just very thin.

( BTW - dying girls don't want sex. Part of that syndrome is they want to deny their own body and its adult existance)

LaTigresse - my give a damn was broken. Lady, I think you have may jump started my give-a-damn and maybe I do .. give a damn or two.

Thanx!

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