Separation of people vrs state...

Separation of people vrs state... (Full Version)

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MasDom -> Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 2:58:16 PM)
When I look back I often wounder why the government is set up the way it is. How we had fallen from for the people by the people to this hypocrasy... The rich idiots in charge , and a lacking in our true ability to oppose them. If it were my choice i,d issue a few new rules to better this... First i,d make a national voting system were every one gets a card like social security. then if the president is an air head you can simply vote him out of office period... Anything close to 90 percent shouldn't be questioned by any form of government.. Secondly i,d open that voting up to all the other air heads in office. This would simply ensure that if your not really for the people, you can piss off....

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 3:02:29 PM)
I'm not sure how your system is different from what we have now except for the electoral college? Democracy might be horribly flawed in that it supposes a population that actually educates and motivates itself to be involved in its own government, but it's better than any other system at work today.

Pulpsmack -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 3:13:26 PM)
Congratulations... you just plugged the hole in the boat up with a screen door.

MasDom -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 3:17:51 PM)
Oh really. And who is in that electoral colledge?... Same politicians who don't ever use the power in the first place. Other wise how do you explain Bush for 8 years?..... That a big ass hole to plug you know?...

MasDom -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 3:19:12 PM)
Uh wait...I just got what he said.... Yeah screen door, more like a chain link fence...

Estring -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 3:32:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasDom Oh really. And who is in that electoral colledge?... Same politicians who don't ever use the power in the first place. Other wise how do you explain Bush for 8 years?..... That a big ass hole to plug you know?... Bush for eight years is easy. He won the last two elections. And it is news to me that politicians are in the Electoral College. In reference to your earlier post, this government was set up by The Founding Fathers. We already have a way to get out elected officials that we don't agree with. It is called an election. Every adult already has the right to vote. I fail to see how a card will make more people vote. Most people don't vote because they couldn't care less about voting. This is particularly true of younger people. And that is fine with me. We don't need any more dopes who know nothing about government voting.

MasDom -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 4:10:11 PM)
Oh really.. Lets see how many times has their been a president the people didn't vote for elected by the college? Oh thats rite...one to many times... As for getting them out with the election themselves. Oh my theirs a functional way to deal with people after they run amok in office, and as for the second election. OK people had a chance to opt out Bush but we felt Kerry was an even bigger retard... So you cant really say that was an option, although were kicking ourselves in the ass now aren't we?... Look you can try to contradict it all you want, but the electoral college doesn't always swing for the people regardless. And unless you actually give the people full rite to openly vote a president out of office at any given time... The ways were given always fall through in retrospect, and perhaps its time we evolved it all instead of beating a dead horse.. And even then who are we supposed to put into office? The vice presidents given are even a bigger joke. However i,m sure if we then voted out the second retard coming, things would be forced to change.. However I fail to see how the process really gives you the option...

MasDom -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 4:13:09 PM)
And to the point. I,m sure those dopes would care enough if given the option to vote some one out if they were a mass screw up. Regardless of how disconnected they feel from the process in the first place, because like I said, you can hold onto that dream about your vote counting all you want. But like it our not once that idiots in office were is your power then. Especially when that idiot seems to have it out personally for your bill of rites.

Pulpsmack -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 4:31:55 PM)
OK... a few things, 1. "Direct" democracy is certainly more attractive idealistically than the electoral college, but that doesn't make abuses in the voting process disappear (and if anything it probably makes the 2,000 a more likely occurance and more nightmarish to boot. 2. 90% recall is meaningless. I would bet you Bush would withstand a 90% recall. I bet you Hitler might have withstood a 90% recall through 1944. 3. Don't take this the wrong way, but your writing is seriously painful. One has to go over your "paragraphs" at least twice because of your spelling, grammar, and punctuation, or lack thereof. It is particularly ironic when you are howling bloody murder over the recall of "idiots" and you are unable to spell the word, "right" or use a comma instead of an apostrophe. So, on the functional level, your ideas are not getting across, and on the intellectual level, you are being discounted by the sloppiness or lack of writing skills. Try slowing down and/or using spell checker before posting.

MasDom -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 4:43:02 PM)
Agreed to a point. My spelling and paragraphs are atrocious. How ever lets not forget the lacking of humility past those who deem themselves betters... As for the voting its simple really. every one gets a new card like social sec, And then ever one gets one vote. If some one votes twice then it can be checked on because it would be easily traceable. As for what it means... I,m sure regardless of how it may seem. If a good chunk of the populous decided to vote all at once. Then perhaps it would remind people when we really think things are wrong... That our say is what it we really wish it to be. Not what some single voice chooses for us. And regardless of all the defeatist things you can post to my writing, its just a simple thought. Why cry bloody murder?.... Ask the families loosing their loved ones in Iraq. Or ask the soldiers who are their,who don't even know why any more. Then tell me why it matters, That regardless if its coming from a complete retard. That it means anything less then it does.

Pulpsmack -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 5:04:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasDom Agreed to a point. My spelling and paragraphs are atrocious. How ever lets not forget the lacking of humility past those who deem themselves betters... There is a chasm between constructive advice to help make your points more understandable, and your threads more hospitable for discussion, and trying to come off as superior. quote: As for the voting its simple really. every one gets a new card like social sec, And the never one gets one vote. And you still have done nothing to solve the pitfalls of democracy. Many still won't vote, and some special interest groups will legally buy votes with promises and illegally with bottles of Mad Dog and cigarettes. Giving your idea its full capability, you have done nothing more than make a stronger, smarter, tougher soldier before sending him on that same suicide mission. quote: If some one votes twice then it can be checked on because it would be easily traceable. Because why? How can any faith be had in your words about that given the mountain of incompetance our government has shown in the recent past? How can one make an argument against the idiocy of the system and then use the same bad components to build a new one? quote: As for what it means... I,m sure regardless of how it may seem. If a good chunk of the populous decided to vote all at once. Then perhaps it would remind people when we really think things are wrong... That our say is what it we really wish it to be. Not what some single voice chooses for us. And regardless of all the defeatist things you can post to my writing, its just a simple thought. Well if it is just a flight of fancy or "simple thought" with a presupposing "if" question needed to run it, why stop there? Why not a "revolutionary IF" followed by how to restructure the system? quote: Why cry bloody murder?.... Ask the families loosing their loved ones in Iraq. Or ask the soldiers who are their,who don't even know why any more. Have YOU asked the soldiers that question? Have you forgotten this is a voluntary enlistment system? I have the fortune to speak with many of them on a semi-daily basis. Of the ones I talked to, many seem to believe in some sort of cause over there, and nearly all of them feel they are/were making some sort of difference. I can't speak for of all of them. Hell, I can't speak for any of them, but I have a feeling that quite a few of them would jump down your throat about having the audacity to speak for them when you have neither the right, nor the right message. quote: Then tell me why it matters that regardless if its coming from a complete retard, that it means anything less then it does. Actually this is one point of yours I agree with. No matter how evil, or inexperienced, or dumb the person is (or is perceived to be) his argument should not be attacked on the basis of his "stupidity", bad character, or lack of experience. Nevertheless, people still incorrectly do this and cloud the issue. So, if it is your point to make a persuasive argument it's in your best interests to make it clear of such distractions.

popeye1250 -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 5:34:03 PM)
A lot of young people today went to "colledge". And that's how many of them spell it.

Sinergy -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 5:36:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 A lot of young people today went to "colledge". And that's how many of them spell it. Are you trashing their edumacation? Sinergy

CuriousLord -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 5:37:28 PM)
Politicans are brighter than most. Including the majority of the people that bitch about them. Right now, I'm rather content to settle with them over the collective will of the population.

Sinergy -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 5:41:17 PM)
General reply. The reason we have an Electoral College was because it would take weeks for the representative for the voting public of, say, Georgia, to get to Washington to cast the vote for the person his constituents had voted for. It made a lot of sense back then, but time marches on and it probably does not make a lot of sense today. However, the problem I have with changing it is that the clowns who most want to change it are a bunch of crooked jerks who are on Diebold's payroll. Sinergy

MasDom -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 5:48:00 PM)
I got my edjumication in the school of F*** U university. And my balls came with the course.. >Thank you sinergy for just taking the topic seriously.<

MasDom -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 5:53:19 PM)
And as for you pulp. I,d flick you in the head, and say bad doggy. if you wouldn't probably enjoy it a little to much... Your OK since at least your trying to prove a motivational point to the discussion in your own rite. I just get annoyed when people personally flame to some degree past such motivity. Peace, and stay on the topic.

luckydog1 -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 6:05:57 PM)
I have never heard anyone seriously say that Sinergy. It sounds like nonsense, and has nothing to do with time or distance. I know wikipedia is lame, but it sums it up well here and refers to Madison in the Federalist papers about it. The Electoral College is intended to dilute the votes of population centers that may have different concerns from the majority of the country. The system is designed to require presidential candidates to appeal to many different types of interests, rather than those of a specific region or state. The College enabled the Founding Fathers to deftly incorporate the Connecticut Compromise and three-fifths compromise into the system of choosing the President and Vice President, sparing the convention further acrimony over the issue of state representation. In the Federalist Papers No. 39, James Madison argued that the Constitution was designed to be a mixture of federal (state-based) and national (population-based) government. The Congress would have two houses, one federal and one national in character, while the President would be elected by a mixture of the two modes, giving some electoral power to the states and some to the people in general. Both the Congress and the President would be elected by mixed federal and national means. [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College

Sinergy -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 6:17:49 PM)
Have you read the 12th amendment? The votes of a population center are to be transmitted to the Electoral college in a sealed document, to be opened with everybody else's vote. There has only been one Elector in history who has voted in opposition to his mandate from the constituency. The rationale you cited about diluting refers to the House of Representatives. I will look for my source material from 23 years ago, but it made perfect sense why we have this archaic system where states seperated by huge distances and slow travel would all come together on the same day to cast their votes in what is called to order for one purpose, reading the sealed votes, and one purpose only. The Electoral College has one (1) job. To present the vote of their constituency for both the president and the vice-president of the United States. The winner of this vote is appointed to the Presidency and Vice-Presidency. Population issues were dealt with at the state level in the state-wide elections. Sinergy

MasDom -> RE: Separation of people vrs state... (7/25/2007 7:12:58 PM)
All i,m saying is even if the system works to put some one into office. Were is your real representation when you want them back out of it? And the voting idea would work... It works because it would be made public that people were officially out crying... Something they for once couldn't hide just by skirting the subject, and unlike rioting or protesting, this for it being a legal and legitimate way to voice yourself, would indeed at least give us the first step into showing our concern. Lets face it the system only go's so far, and then trusts itself. And thats the problem facing us today... Because when it cant be trusted and it needs to change every year these things continue to escalate, the damage becomes more comprehensible to the future. You cant tell me the system works... The system cant be designed to work perfectly, Only work as good as it possibly can among compromise. But this isn't a situation for compromise any more. Its a moment were action needs to be taken, or we all fall back into the same failings we blamed our ancestors for. Not those far off wig wearing men. I mean like all our turmoil over Vietnam, and other things similar. You cant look at our president today, and not tell me you don't find comparisons to Nixon,Vietnam,Hitler and many other things we would rather not face again, rite their in those eyes... And for all the public out cry before the media finally took our side in that, if only to save face can you tell me its not about time to mandate at least one new law into office. A law only designed for the peoples rite to fight back in some way.. You can tell me the people have a voice all you want... But if you tell me that voice is even more an idiot then me. then put me into office, and know how I feel rite now. I,m sick of all this. And their has to be a better way... For fucks sake, when people are praising Fahrenheits movies you know this shit is all screwed up. When the comedians can use honest facts as jokes.... WTF?...

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