dragone
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/29/2007
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Hi Nosathro; I have no problem with historical fact, and even there, one should view what is presented as with some skeptaism at best.
Now, according to her 'hearing voices', who knows; 'the voices in her head'...a term that is ambiguious at best. People think, and when they express themselves, may just happen to say..."I heard as if a voice in my head." The Catholic church is rife with 'saints' hearing voices in their heads, God speaking to them. It's a mainstay of that cult. So, that is a bit suspect; however, it made for a good basis for her 'crazy'; and legend, and to accuse her at her trial.
If she was indeed an ' upstart' asserting her opinions; she may have well been chided to have her whipped; as in that time, any woman who had the audacity to be assertive in any fashion....the usual thing was to... have her whipped. It was and still is a common phrase.
Crazy Visionary....anyone who, even slighty, goes against the 'status quo...is, or could be called 'crazy'; even a 'crazy visionary', predicting certain events, or what ever.
The long and short of it was thus: she was 'a pawn' created to be a symbol of France, for the French heirachy, to gain control of the country, to mobilize the mass army to fight, to be a motivational icon. Certain criteria had to be met, a devote religious girl, (thus making her the ideal 'dupe' for political gain, via the church); a virgin; from a rather obscure setting.... making her pure; as like the virgin Mary;...and then it comes, the fabrications; this maid, hears the voice of God (thus giving her devine credibility, at the time when they needed her, or so it would appear); certain 'miracles', dubious miracles to be sure, followed, another 'proof' to the populace, she is truly the chosen of God, to lead the armies of France; so decreed by Charles and his court. She was illiterate, could not read or write, not even her own 'confession' was she able to read. So, being illiterate, no military training, most likely not able to read military maps, being, according to what documentation you read, ranged between the age of 12 and 16 years, (most of what I read put her around 14 to 16 years); how could anyone entrust, such as her, to lead an army. It is incredulous.
So, in due course, she rode at the head of the army, holding her own banner and she was the living icon, living symbol of the Purity of France, this girl warrior chosen by God for the devine purpose to bring France independance and it's rightful ruler to glory. Basically, all she had to do is stay on top of that horse and not fall off. The seiges were planned well, but not by her, as film would have you believe, and the troops had the visible inspriation and devine motivation riding in full regalia in front of them. When she was wounded, and the men were about to loss heart, up she goes, on her mighty silver steed, with a hearty "hi yo silver" she leads her army, and the battle was won. Myth has it, with the bolt in her shoulder, she mounted the horse to resume the battle. No, I contend, the general ordered her put back up in the saddle. If she would have died then, France would have a maryter; and a different legend we would be reading today, and a different movie.
I asked a few of my friends, if they ever heard or read that Joan was the sister of Charles. These friends, are from France; citizens, raised there; three living there now; not a one, ever read nor heard such a thing. So the other poster, I cannot believe what he said to be factual; since I can point to no history book, even on my shelf, that even hints to this.
The one thing however, is I find a hint, that this 'plot' of a joan icon, was tried at least twice before, but failed. This Joan however succeeded.
Her trial was a mockery, she was put to torture; by the church; she could not read what she was confessing to; and the mystery of her recanting still remains. Why did she recant; after being guarenteed freedom, (maybe). She served her usefulness, she was popular with the people and the army at large. She may have had an infulence in the court due to the 'hero' they made her; she could not be trusted, and was a threat to the continuing reign of Charles, and the court of France in general. She had to be eliminated for security reasons; and the church saw to it. Thus they murdered her. Did she recant, or didn't she, nothing is quite clear there; and she was told, sign and you will be free, no more 'boot'. She could not read what she was signing...under torture.
Now, I speculate; the recanting thingie came later, after her execution, for that should have been the end of Joan; but it was not, the people were outraged; and Joan became more popular in her death than when she was alive. So, the church fearing reprisals against the church, losing it's hold on the people, concocked this recant story, and inferred it was the doing of a few unscurpulous clergy; that the church was not responsible for the few, unforunate as it was.
Film shows a poor Joan, crying "I want to see God; show me a cross"; you've seen it in every film, from Bergman, to Sobeski, to the gal who play in 'The Messenger', what's her name; and there is a few forgien films all have the same ending BS. The church murdered her, period, she was of no more use to France, or to the church.
She was NOT...the Village Idiot. or, maybe she was,... for believing them.
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Joan of ark the movie - 
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