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RE: Dwight Eisenhower's "Operation Wetback" - 5/24/2007 11:01:13 PM   
Alumbrado


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The history of Vietnam shows Truman and Kennedy  'causing' the war every bit as much as did Ike.

(in reply to Tuomas)
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RE: Dwight Eisenhower's "Operation Wetback" - 5/25/2007 1:22:54 AM   
Vendaval


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Most wars are a collective "cluster-fuck".

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RE: Dwight Eisenhower's "Operation Wetback" - 5/25/2007 8:31:47 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

-
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuomas


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Tuomas:
If,as you claim, the truth is of no interest to you , why did you post in the first place?
thompson

The truth interests me, not the technicality. I don't care enough about the subject to enter in a debate over insignificant technical aspects of an established historic fact.

The point of the matter is you tried to discredit Eisenhower by atempting to implicate him in the Vietnam conflict, based on a small, technical detail that has no relevance in the actual historic events. I corrected you, and apparently you are not able to take dissenting opinion.


Tuomas:
Perhaps your opinion is right and the history books are wrong.
thompson

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RE: Dwight Eisenhower's "Operation Wetback" - 5/25/2007 8:34:24 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

The history of Vietnam shows Truman and Kennedy  'causing' the war every bit as much as did Ike.


Alumbrado:
Perhaps your opinion is right and the history books are wrong.
thompson

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Dwight Eisenhower's "Operation Wetback" - 5/25/2007 9:09:30 AM   
Tuomas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Most wars are a collective "cluster-fuck".

... like accidents. No one thing starts a war: it's a combination of lots of things going wrong, and people making the wrong decisions.

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RE: Dwight Eisenhower's "Operation Wetback" - 5/25/2007 9:19:30 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

The history of Vietnam shows Truman and Kennedy  'causing' the war every bit as much as did Ike.


Alumbrado:
Perhaps your opinion is right and the history books are wrong.
thompson


My comments accurately reflect what is in the history books. The conflict in Vietnam was 'caused' by a series of policy decisions over the course of multiple presidencies.

Feel free to come to any revisionist conclusion you wish.

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RE: Dwight Eisenhower's "Operation Wetback" - 5/25/2007 4:14:58 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

The history of Vietnam shows Truman and Kennedy  'causing' the war every bit as much as did Ike.


Alumbrado:
Perhaps your opinion is right and the history books are wrong.
thompson


My comments accurately reflect what is in the history books. The conflict in Vietnam was 'caused' by a series of policy decisions over the course of multiple presidencies.

Feel free to come to any revisionist conclusion you wish.


Alumbrado:
Perhaps you might care to share which history books state that :The conflict in Vietnam was 'caused' by a series of policy decisions over the course of multiple presidencies"
thompson

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RE: Dwight Eisenhower's "Operation Wetback" - 5/25/2007 4:19:15 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuomas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Most wars are a collective "cluster-fuck".

... like accidents. No one thing starts a war: it's a combination of lots of things going wrong, and people making the wrong decisions.


Tuomsa:
You mean like Hitler invading Poland was one of the many causes of WWII.  The other causes being ????
thompson

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RE: Dwight Eisenhower's "Operation Wetback" - 5/25/2007 11:36:59 PM   
Sinergy


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The problem I have with trying to lay blame to anybody for Vietnam comes down to definitions.

For example...

Yes, we only had "advisors" in Vietnam until the US military forces active in country were renamed "combat troops" and their numbers were substantially increased.

Geneva did not step in and divide the country.  The country was divided at the behest of the United States in order to try to fix the clusterfuck that started when France went "fuck it, they dont want us here" and went home.

Most of the presidents who were involved in Vietnam seemed more concerned with how history would remember their Presidency, than they were about the "advisors" (read: combat soldiers) coming home in body bags from their police action.

A case could be made that we would still be there if Nixon did not wish to be reelected.

The only reason anybody with half a brain would think that Vietnam and Iraq are dissimilar is because AnencephalyBoy told them so.

Sinergy

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RE: Dwight Eisenhower's "Operation Wetback" - 5/26/2007 7:19:44 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

...Perhaps you might care to share which history books state that :The conflict in Vietnam was 'caused' by a series of policy decisions over the course of multiple presidencies"
thompson


Since I never claimed that those words were a literal quote from any particular text, but instead very specifically stated that it was a reflection of the general historical record, you will just have to play your 'challenge' game by yourself.

Anyone not blindly invested in the Hollywood/Washington revision of Vietnam's decades long struggle for independence is free to read about the Truman Doctrine's extension into Indochina, as well as  other administration's decisions to oppose that independence, leading to what is popularly referred to as 'The Vietnam War'..

Here are some quick Internet references:

quote:


1945- (October) With U.S. support British Major General Gracey lands and restores French control south of the sixteenth parallel (what would later be called "South Vietnam"). Ho Chi Minh appeals to US President Harry Truman to support Vietnamese independence.

1948- Bao Dai again installed as head of state in the South under the French. Indirect U.S. funding of the French side begins under the Truman Administration
 
1950- The Democratic Republic of Vietnam (in the North) under Ho Chi Minh is recognized by the Soviet bloc; Boa Dai’s government is recognized by the U.S. and Great Britain. Both governments claim to represent all of Vietnam. U.S. continues to aid France in the prosecution of the war and sends first team of U.S. advisors to Indochina.

faculty.washington.edu/nsingh/HSTAA 235/Vietnam War Timeline.doc

quote:

November, 1946
Ho Chi Minh attempts to negotiate the end of colonial rule with the French without success. The French army shells Haiphong harbor in November, killing over 6,000 Vietnamese civilians, and, by December, open war between France and the Viet Minh begins.

Return to Top

1950
The U.S., recognizing Boa Dai's regime as legitimate, begins to subsidize the French in Vietnam; the Chinese Communists, having won their civil war in 1949, begin to supply weapons to the Viet Minh.

August 3, 1950
A
U.S. Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) of 35 men arrives in Saigon. By the end of the year, the U.S. is bearing half of the cost of France's war effort in Vietnam.

http://servercc.oakton.edu/~wittman/chronol.htm

quote:

The request prompted the Truman administration to re-evaluate the situation in Southeast Asia.  Accordingly, they issued the following statement:

the threat of Communist aggression in Indochina is only one phase of anticipated Communist plans to seize all of Southeast Asia.

In National Security Council Memorandum 64, dated 27 Feb 50, it stated:

"all practical measures be taken to prevent further Communist expansions in Southeast Asia. The neighboring countries of Thailand and Burma could be expected to fall under Communist domination if Indochina were controlled by a Communist-dominated government.  The balance of Southeast Asia would be in grave hazard."

On 1 May 50, President Truman approved the initial allotment of $10 million dollars for French Indochina.  These actions signaled the beginning of Phase 2 of Vietnam's struggle for independence.  The paramount issue now became clear ... it was Communist versus Anti-communist.

http://www.covey-fac.com/history/history1969.htm










(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Dwight Eisenhower's "Operation Wetback" - 5/26/2007 11:57:27 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

...Perhaps you might care to share which history books state that :The conflict in Vietnam was 'caused' by a series of policy decisions over the course of multiple presidencies"
thompson


Since I never claimed that those words were a literal quote from any particular text, but instead very specifically stated that it was a reflection of the general historical record, you will just have to play your 'challenge' game by yourself.

Anyone not blindly invested in the Hollywood/Washington revision of Vietnam's decades long struggle for independence is free to read about the Truman Doctrine's extension into Indochina, as well as  other administration's decisions to oppose that independence, leading to what is popularly referred to as 'The Vietnam War'..

Here are some quick Internet references:

quote:


1945- (October) With U.S. support British Major General Gracey lands and restores French control south of the sixteenth parallel (what would later be called "South Vietnam"). Ho Chi Minh appeals to US President Harry Truman to support Vietnamese independence.

1948- Bao Dai again installed as head of state in the South under the French. Indirect U.S. funding of the French side begins under the Truman Administration
 
1950- The Democratic Republic of Vietnam (in the North) under Ho Chi Minh is recognized by the Soviet bloc; Boa Dai’s government is recognized by the U.S. and Great Britain. Both governments claim to represent all of Vietnam. U.S. continues to aid France in the prosecution of the war and sends first team of U.S. advisors to Indochina.

faculty.washington.edu/nsingh/HSTAA 235/Vietnam War Timeline.doc

quote:

November, 1946
Ho Chi Minh attempts to negotiate the end of colonial rule with the French without success. The French army shells Haiphong harbor in November, killing over 6,000 Vietnamese civilians, and, by December, open war between France and the Viet Minh begins.

Return to Top

1950
The U.S., recognizing Boa Dai's regime as legitimate, begins to subsidize the French in Vietnam; the Chinese Communists, having won their civil war in 1949, begin to supply weapons to the Viet Minh.

August 3, 1950
A
U.S. Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) of 35 men arrives in Saigon. By the end of the year, the U.S. is bearing half of the cost of France's war effort in Vietnam.

http://servercc.oakton.edu/~wittman/chronol.htm

quote:

The request prompted the Truman administration to re-evaluate the situation in Southeast Asia.  Accordingly, they issued the following statement:


the threat of Communist aggression in Indochina is only one phase of anticipated Communist plans to seize all of Southeast Asia.

In National Security Council Memorandum 64, dated 27 Feb 50, it stated:


"all practical measures be taken to prevent further Communist expansions in Southeast Asia. The neighboring countries of Thailand and Burma could be expected to fall under Communist domination if Indochina were controlled by a Communist-dominated government.  The balance of Southeast Asia would be in grave hazard."


On 1 May 50, President Truman approved the initial allotment of $10 million dollars for French Indochina.  These actions signaled the beginning of Phase 2 of Vietnam's struggle for independence.  The paramount issue now became clear ... it was Communist versus Anti-communist.

http://www.covey-fac.com/history/history1969.htm











Alumbrado:
While this is quite interesting background it fails to deal with the topic at hand.
When the French leave Viet Nam  the mission for MACV is over (their mission being the sorting out of which request from the French would be honored and which would be ignored.)
History books (not revisionist such as yourself) have stated for thee past fifty years that The U.S. involvement in the Viet Nam war start with Eisenhower.
thompson

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Dwight Eisenhower's "Operation Wetback" - 5/26/2007 3:31:31 PM   
Alumbrado


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I'm sorry taking so long to get back to you, I was digging through the ton of references you provided supporting your dissension from  the notion that Kennedy and Truman also had something to do with events leading to deaths in Vietnam...

The narrowly defined 'Vietnam War 1956 - 1973' or any variant therof is glass teat pablum, cherry picked revisionism, agitprop, and patently misleading.

The decades long war waged by the people of Vietnam for independence against the policies and actions of Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Ike, et al. is the reality. 

But again, feel free to view it any way you wish.
.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 32
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