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New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/16/2007 3:07:19 PM

SDFemDom4cuck

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We've been discussing the newest technologies in my radiology classes and my professor came across this in the news today. A debate began over how invasive this type of scanning might be and what the safety protocals of frequent fliers may entail should this become the norm rather than the unique. Any one have any thoughts or comments on how they feel about this given the plethora of private piercings and/or chastity devices that are made to get past the usual metal detectors?

I've included a link since it has a nifty little example on what shows up in this type of scan.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070516/od_afp/netherlandsaviationtraveloffbeat_070516020701;_ylt=AliOa.YI4AqznzrUeiq4li0E1vAI

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

Post #: 1

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/16/2007 4:36:02 PM

soultoshare

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well, the only error i can see is that Asterdam ISN"T the only airport....they are testing one, or will be testing one, in Phoenix, AZ. Other than that, it's pretty much the same set-up, blurry body parts,don't remember if the faces are blurred out, or there is the choice of the regular way of getting searched.

Unfortunately, what with things that go BEEP in the night, i'd have a very hard time wearing any kind of device through a gate at an airport that would get me sidelined for a search. i don't want to have to try to explain what i'm wearing to anyone outside of the lifestyle. Besides, after working in Customs for the Army in Germany, i know firsthand how embarassing it is for the FINDER of said items in addition to the carrier. The stories i have are funny, but only looking back on them...at the time, well, it was uncomfortable to say the least!

(in reply to SDFemDom4cuck)

Post #: 2

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/16/2007 4:59:54 PM

SDFemDom4cuck

Posts: 2809
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From: P'burgh PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: soultoshare

well, the only error i can see is that Asterdam ISN"T the only airport....they are testing one, or will be testing one, in Phoenix, AZ. Other than that, it's pretty much the same set-up, blurry body parts,don't remember if the faces are blurred out, or there is the choice of the regular way of getting searched.

Unfortunately, what with things that go BEEP in the night, i'd have a very hard time wearing any kind of device through a gate at an airport that would get me sidelined for a search. i don't want to have to try to explain what i'm wearing to anyone outside of the lifestyle. Besides, after working in Customs for the Army in Germany, i know firsthand how embarassing it is for the FINDER of said items in addition to the carrier. The stories i have are funny, but only looking back on them...at the time, well, it was uncomfortable to say the least!

From the article it seems that faces are blurred out yes. Oh do tell! I love a good story!

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to soultoshare)

Post #: 3

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/16/2007 5:01:50 PM

Mercnbeth

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We've just booked our trip there for November. I wonder if I can get a copy of beth walking through for our scrapbook?

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Post #: 4

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/16/2007 5:03:37 PM

SDFemDom4cuck

Posts: 2809
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From: P'burgh PA
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You'll have to let me know what happens. I'm assuming that she has piercings that may show on the scan?

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 5

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/16/2007 5:04:06 PM

popeye1250

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Note to self; "If flying into Amsterdam, pack socks."

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Post #: 6

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/16/2007 5:35:18 PM

shallowdeep

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From: California
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As already pointed out, Phoenix starting testing testing some backscatter x-ray machines in February, I believe. LAX and JFK plan to add them by the end of the year. At present it is a purely voluntary option that those passengers selected for secondary screening can opt for in place of a (perhaps even more invasive) pat down. While capable of relatively high resolution images (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter_X-ray ) the current TSA implementation only shows a cartoonish outline and there are some other privacy guards in place as well ( see: http://www.tsa.gov/research/privacy/backscatter.shtm ).

If it does become the norm, taking the time to remove anything that might cause potential embarrassment or delay would be sensible. Quite honestly though, that's probably already the prudent course of action when traveling by air. Given that security is already a hassle and probably not as effective at detecting explosives as it should be (and useless for detecting non-ferromagnetic metals) I can't say I'm opposed to something like this that makes it a little more worthwhile.

(in reply to SDFemDom4cuck)

Post #: 7

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/16/2007 7:13:37 PM

soultoshare

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Well, there is an officer floating around that will NEVER forget the day he left Germany.....apparently, during his going away party, he smoked some pot, and didn't wash the clothing he wore, so inevitably, the dog hit on his bag. We paged him down to the baggage area, and he was all fidgety and nervous...we thought we'd hit the jackpot. Well, he had this footlocker, and when we popped it open....OMG!!!! There was about 4 cows worth of leather inside, clothing, toys, implements......all of it obviously well-used. Anyway, this poor LT had to stand there while myself and another male officer went thru EVERYTHING in the foot locker. And of course, once everyone got a peek at what we were pulling out of the footlocker, they were all over the place. I think my male counterpart was really squicked about a lot ofthe things, me....well, my imagination was going a mile a minute! Talk about hot! We had to pull the porn out, and since apparently he was bi, my partner really got green, but me, hey, even then, i was of the mind that what goes on behind closed doors is NOBODY'S business. We did handle it professionally tho, i had no desire to embarass him any more than he already was.

And for anyone whose ever been thru the Frankfurt Int'l Airport, there were three Dr. Mueller's sex shops in the terminals. Well, there were a couple of us that were really evil and sick...we'd take the newbies over to the airport, and take them into Dr Mueller's.....talk about freaking someone out!!!! One 18 year old was a virgin, and we tricked him into the one with a working 6' dancing dildo....i thought the poor kid was going to pass out! He'd never seen anything like it......i think we may have scarred him permanently...however, a month later, he was right there with us when we nailed another kid! Yep, and i'm still a sick, evil person!

Ya gotta love Europe!

m

(in reply to SDFemDom4cuck)

Post #: 8

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/16/2007 7:58:04 PM

minnetar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

We've just booked our trip there for November. I wonder if I can get a copy of beth walking through for our scrapbook?

lol make sure and check out the red light district - i also went to a very good restaurant there that was a windmill. They pulled the drinks up with a pulley. Very unique.

minnetar

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 9

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/16/2007 9:56:29 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

We've just booked our trip there for November. I wonder if I can get a copy of beth walking through for our scrapbook?

lol make sure and check out the red light district - i also went to a very good restaurant there that was a windmill. They pulled the drinks up with a pulley. Very unique.

minnetar

minnetar,
The district is on the schedule, among other things. As we get closer to the trip I'll be soliciting suggestions and recommendations. Thanks in advance!

(in reply to minnetar)

Post #: 10

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/17/2007 2:50:24 PM

SDFemDom4cuck

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Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
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Loved the story soultoshare. Thanks!

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to soultoshare)

Post #: 11

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/17/2007 2:57:11 PM

SDFemDom4cuck

Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
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quote:

As already pointed out, Phoenix starting testing testing some backscatter x-ray machines in February, I believe. LAX and JFK plan to add them by the end of the year. At present it is a purely voluntary option that those passengers selected for secondary screening can opt for in place of a (perhaps even more invasive) pat down. While capable of relatively high resolution images (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter_X-ray ) the current TSA implementation only shows a cartoonish outline and there are some other privacy guards in place as well ( see: http://www.tsa.gov/research/privacy/backscatter.shtm ).

If it does become the norm, taking the time to remove anything that might cause potential embarrassment or delay would be sensible. Quite honestly though, that's probably already the prudent course of action when traveling by air. Given that security is already a hassle and probably not as effective at detecting explosives as it should be (and useless for detecting non-ferromagnetic metals) I can't say I'm opposed to something like this that makes it a little more worthwhile.

Yes, our debate centered on safety issues moreso than anything else. We have protection of patients from both scatter and attenuated radiation drummed into our heads on a daily basis. I swear if I hear the words gonad shield one more time I'm going to scream. The main concern being what happens when/if this becomes the norm rather than a voluntary option. I take it from your reply you would have no problem with this form of security becoming far more prevalent in future yes? Any concerns as to the effects/affects that repeated exposure would mean on someone that is a frequent flyer in regard to yourself?

< Message edited by SDFemDom4cuck -- 5/17/2007 2:59:29 PM >

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to shallowdeep)

Post #: 12

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/17/2007 5:43:59 PM

shallowdeep

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From: California
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The power required for this type of backscatter x-ray is substantially less than for medical-type transmission x-rays... only enough to penetrate clothing, not tissue. The TSA claims exposure to 10 microREM per scan ( see: http://www.tsa.gov/what_we_do/screening/backscatter.shtm ). You are doubtless more familiar with the field, but my understanding is most medical x-rays are one milliREM or more. If that's an accurate figure, it would take around 100 scans to get the same radiation exposure as a single medical x-ray. While new sources of x-ray radiation are never welcome, this seems like fairly limited exposure, even for frequent travelers. For me personally, the exposure I received in the course of treatment for a recent broken leg probably exceeds the amount I'd get at my current rate of travel (10-20 times through security a year) in a lifetime, so I'm not overly troubled by the prospect.

Considering that heightened airport security and the associated inconveniences are here to stay, I'd just as soon have the security hassle be effective. Regularly passing through metal detectors with a 16" titanium rod makes one question the current system. In fairness, explosives are probably the bigger concern and are screened for differently, but I imagine that the random chemical swabs and other sensors used have some room for improvement as well. Backscatter x-rays seem to offer a step toward improved effectiveness, with what appears to be a minimal health impact, so I wouldn't be opposed to their use.

Privacy is another concern, but the current implementation seems reasonably non-invasive. I don't personally wear anything that I would mind showing up, but if I did I can't see removing it prior to passing through security as that much of a hassle. It certainly seems like less of a hassle than needing to explain the item during a pat down... something which could happen with the current system.

(in reply to SDFemDom4cuck)

Post #: 13

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/17/2007 6:28:24 PM

SDFemDom4cuck

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You are correct I do only know it from a medical science side. While I'm not sure what microRem are..I've never heard this term and wonder if they mean milliRem instead so I have no idea if that is an accurate figure or not.

While you're right in that the difference would be in the power or strength of the xrays being produced. The difference would be in the technique used or the kVp which decides the level or number photons produced for penetration. Short example would be that the avg kVp to penetrate and produce a radiographic image of a femur would be 60 to 80kVp at 5mAs depending on the thickness of the leg itself. Thicker leg = higher kVp. What I would be interested in knowing is what the kVp level is that's being used for the scans which no one has been able to determine yet from our research in class.

California state guidelines are .1Rem of radiation exposure per year for patients. 5Rad for radiation workers. This is the maximum allowed by the state guidlines as well as national guidelones for safety standards. http://www.niehs.nih.gov/odhsb/radhyg/radguide/sectxi.htm

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to shallowdeep)

Post #: 14

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/17/2007 10:13:56 PM

shallowdeep

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From: California
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Milli- and micro- are just prefixes to the base unit rem indicating different orders of magnitude. Milli- is x10^-3 and micro- is x10^-6. Ten microRem are therefore equivalent to 0.01 milliRem. This is the low level of radiation exposure that the backscatter x-ray machines produce, and not a typo. The manufacturer of the machines used by the TSA goes into some detail on relative radiation exposures (see the second section of: http://www.as-e.com/products_solutions/tsa_z_backscatter_pilot.asp ). They note that a chest x-ray is 5-10 milliRem, or between 500 and 1000 times more than a 10 microRem security scan. The figure of 10 milliRem for a chest x-ray is also mentioned by the CDC (see: http://www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/measurement.asp ).

The mA and kVp you mention appear to be the electrical settings of the x-ray device, namely current draw (in milliamps) and peak voltage (in kilovolts), respectively. Without knowing some other parameters like pulse duration, efficiency in conversion from electrical energy to radiation, transmission distance and losses, and body radiation absorption rates, there really isn't a way to compare these numbers to the received radiation dose. Further, as some of these factors will likely be different for different machines, I doubt a direct comparison of these numbers from a medical device to those from a security backscatter device would be particularly useful. Making a comparison with the actual effective radiation dosage received (e.g. rems, or sievert in SI units) is more straightforward as the variable factors don't come into play in the comparison.

The Health Physics Society, which was mentioned in the CDC page cited above, has an article discussing the safety of backscatter x-ray systems (see: http://hps.org/hpspublications/articles/screenindx-ray.html ).

(in reply to SDFemDom4cuck)

Post #: 15

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/18/2007 9:02:29 AM

soultoshare

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this is beginning to look like an algebra class, gang!

i failed algebra!

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Post #: 16

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/18/2007 1:33:18 PM

Vendaval

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What I want to know is whether or not underwire bras will show?

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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Post #: 17

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/18/2007 2:45:41 PM

SDFemDom4cuck

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From: P'burgh PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: soultoshare

this is beginning to look like an algebra class, gang!

i failed algebra!

LOL more like physics.

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to soultoshare)

Post #: 18

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/18/2007 4:55:09 PM

Griswold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck

We've been discussing the newest technologies in my radiology classes and my professor came across this in the news today. A debate began over how invasive this type of scanning might be and what the safety protocals of frequent fliers may entail should this become the norm rather than the unique. Any one have any thoughts or comments on how they feel about this given the plethora of private piercings and/or chastity devices that are made to get past the usual metal detectors?

I've included a link since it has a nifty little example on what shows up in this type of scan.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070516/od_afp/netherlandsaviationtraveloffbeat_070516020701;_ylt=AliOa.YI4AqznzrUeiq4li0E1vAI

You're discussing security scans using "plethora" as an aspect of how invasive it might be....(I presume).

It's certainly invasive. It's equally intrusive. It's hardly, as to any cross country security aspect...offensive (at least to me).

I travel a smidge...as you may be aware. I do not consider someone "invading my space" ( my quotes...not yours) as offensive, nor do I consider it invasive.

I think your question involves the obvious...."where does it go from here?"

Indeed.

That's the bigger question.

(Mine presumes the obvious: "How do we keep people who want to talk to me for MOTHERFUCKING HOURS ON END about SHIT I NEVER FUCKING CARED ABOUT...and how can I shut this motherfucker who's sitting next to me UP??????)

Just a thought.

< Message edited by Griswold -- 5/18/2007 4:57:54 PM >

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Post #: 19

RE: New scanning in Amsterdam Airports shows all - 5/18/2007 6:08:43 PM

Griswold

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(Of course...as to travel).

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Post #: 20

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