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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/9/2007 2:37:49 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

So really, there are two core questions to address:
1. How large a portion of "society" (yours, mine, the French) IS truly doing nothing but "taking" from the honest, and what do "we" (reasonably honest citizen-subjects) do about it?

From what is reported at least, 80% of all crime in the UK is committed by the same 20% of the population.

E

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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/9/2007 5:06:31 AM

seeksfemslave

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I am not convinced that the lives of many of these young criminals is as shitty as you appear to believe LadyE. I dont know any personally but I live close to where some youngsters, who are there for "moral" guidance are housed, they seem happy enough to me.

My approach would be to clamp down hard and fairly on these kids to start with. Thats the carrot, explain clearly that they might be given one or two chances where they could expect soft sentences, then some really hard time. Boot camp style hard work very little fraternising possibly backed up with corporal punishment. I think that would work for all but the potentially if not actually psychotic.
See that programme where young Brit tearaways went to a camp in Iowa or Idaho forget which. 75% ended up in tears within the first few days, and that was only the boys lol

I still think legalising "drugs" would definately help.

Another point about shitty backgrounds, why is that accepted as naturally beig the cause of bad behaviour. The failure of the authorities to deal harshly is a major part of the problem.
Remember Dave Cameron and his "hug a hoodie" comment. What a plonker

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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/9/2007 5:31:22 AM

LadyEllen

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Hi Seeks

I take your points - its my natural reaction too, to have them guillotined and made into soap or something. But so many of them never really had any chance in our society, with useless parents that basically replicated themselves and a lack of any suitable employment with all the factories closing down. They have nothing to gain from following the rules and everything to gain from breaking them - I mean, if they get caught and fined, its deducted at 10p a week from their dole money, which is hardly a deterrent when the potential gains are enormous. Its not an excuse for their behaviour, but I believe its a reason why such behaviour has escalated so much.

What I think we need, is to give these people their dole and social benefits as now, but then that they must also work at least one day a week in the first month, two days in the second and so on, that they are receiving them - by month five they will be working five days a week. There is plenty to do in the country that they could be doing but which is not done now because of the cost of getting it done. They would be allocated under the supervision of any organisation that requires them and if they dont turn up, they dont get their dole or benefits. There are also plenty of paid jobs - hundreds of thousands of Poles wouldnt be here otherwise. If we take the time off their hands, they cant be up to the stuff they are now, and they should get some degree of self esteem and sense of involvement by such measures.

We've tried the boot camp approach before I believe - didnt Thatcher instigate it? It clearly didnt work, and whilst I realise its gratifying to have wrongdoers in tears, many of them only act the way they do because they are hiding tears in the first place as broken, traumatised and lonely people - yes, they hang around in gangs, but that tells me that they need a gang to give them the emotional security they otherwise lack.

But once we have the situation in place that can and does solve many of their problems, then we do need to deal more realistically with offenders I agree. Fines, community service and gaol as punishments simply do not work - the same people go round and round the system, costing a fortune and achieving nothing for them or for society. The problem we have though is the EU human rights legislation - which is certainly a welcome and valued regulation long overdue in the UK, but which for some reason provides human rights also to those who refuse to acknowledge the human rights of others. As a supposed democracy, it ought to be possible to reintroduce harsher measures than at present - most people I know would be in favour of such - but until we can secure an amendment to the human rights laws, it wont happen. And until we can make society a better place for those unable to compete according to the rules - better such that they are able to compete to an acceptable degree, I dont think there's any point in harsher measures.

David Cameron a plonker? Well, he's a tory so that goes without saying LOL!

E

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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/9/2007 7:49:50 AM

seeksfemslave

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LadyE: I just dont understand what young " tough guys" gain by smashing up bus shelters, spraying paint everywhere, and attacking others, usually in ratios of 2/3 to 1 in a sadistic callous way. I mean literally gain, shillings/ pence not some release from any pentup frustration or hostility they may feel..

My attitude is that they must be controlled by a harsh law enforcement regime after having been told what will happen if they carry on their chosen path.

I expect the boot camp idea was abandonded because of cost. I remember it didnt last long, certainly not long enough to see how it was going to turn out.

Some form of community service is being or has been tried , many of the young studs just dont turn up, then what ? Well why not the birch ? Why not ?

If the post programme publicity was to be believed on that US camp programme, then it did work for some of the "contestants" I also remember that many of the families involved were respectable and reasonably affluent with kids so obnoxious it beggars belief. Maybe they had to pay to get the kids in there, not sure speaking from memory.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/9/2007 7:51:46 AM >

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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/9/2007 8:04:06 AM

LadyEllen

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I expect its pent up rage and frustration they are relieving by way of random violence and vandalism. Where that comes from is likely the emotional problems they have and the social problems they have, and the feeling of utter powerlessness to do anything about either.

I'm not suggesting community service as a punishment either - I'm suggesting that this is brought into play as a matter of course, in return for social benefits. Dont turn up? No dole, that simple. It would even be cost effective I believe to add an inducement of say GBP 10-00 a day for turning up, on top of the dole.

What you say about the affluent background kids is also interesting and I believe a growing problem. True enough, they dont suffer the same types of deprivation as the stereotype ASBO kids - but I believe its that same frustration, rage and powerlessness that leads them to bad ways, perhaps more for emotional rather than social reasons, as their less wealthy colleagues.

I wonder whether, at the root of all this is that the world is just so damned big nowadays, and we hear about all the crap going on in the world so much more than ever before, and we see just how much wealth is out there but unattainable to most, that leads to such a feeling of impotence and inconsequence to the greater scheme of things? Not one of us matters - whether we lived another ten years or died in the next minute, it would make no difference to the world.

Add to that, that our leaders and representatives and practically every form of organisation and authority is shown to be rife with injustice and criminality that goes unpunished and the general feeling that whatever one can get away with is OK becomes apparent.

E

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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/9/2007 10:24:27 AM

seeksfemslave

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Most of the kind of crimes we are discussing are carried out by adolescent men with women doing their best to catch up. We all know that this can age be difficult enough; the changes in mind and body that are occuring coupled with a different view of family relationships, especially parental ones as the youngsters wake up to a wider world and see possibilities and difficulties laden with uncertainty and doubt, not for all but for very many.

I think it is just as likely that such things are at the root of the serious anti social tendencies that have emerged over the last 20 odd years. Not because such tendencies are new , but because they have been indulged by a mindless application of a perverted liberalism.

That such an indulgance should have been tried is no bad thing: when it can be clearly seen to have failed and then to call for more of it is downright wicked not to say stupid. IMO

Once the juices of youth have fizzed over then those people who still have inner difficulties, either take to drink, sink into depression, go slowly mad things like that. They do not repeat the behaviour patterns of the misguided youth who are costing us so much, doing so little and causing so much harm.

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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/9/2007 12:07:59 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

When you think that Britain has the most CCTV cameras, you would think they would catch more on film than they do. Since most crime is drug related you think that fact would have sparked the idea in someone's head that what is needed is more drug rehabilitation clinics, a decriminalizing of drugs and less CCTV cameras.

They were never intended to catch hardened criminals. I mean, what sort of criminal worth his salt is going to deal drugs in front of a camera? Everyone knows where CCTV cameras are as they're about as covert as christmas.

The cameras were installed for two reasons:

1) Easy arrests to meet targets. Lads pissed right up to the eyeballs on a friday and saturday night brawling in the streets - police can meet weekly targets in a night.

2) More importantly, they are there to prevent mass public protest against government policies. Any rioting - such as the poll tax riots - and you're on camera. Throw in ID card schemes, so they can put a name and address to a face, and you'll be locked up on the same day.

If we're the worst group of criminals on the planet, as implied by our establishment by virtue of Britons being the most watched people on the planet, then how can we be the most hard working, fair minded, tolerant and decent people that is sold to us on a regular basis by the same establishment.

The internet could go either way at the moment - it can become an arena for independent thought, or it can become a mouthpiece for the establishment - controlled by the establishment and full to the brim with some of the nonsense we get on here about "fighting for freedom". Let's hope it goes the way of the former and information is readily available for those prepared to keep an open mind. Self-education is the viable solution.

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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/9/2007 12:41:50 PM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

They were never intended to catch hardened criminals. I mean, what sort of criminal worth his salt is going to deal drugs in front of a camera? Everyone knows where CCTV cameras are as they're about as covert as christmas.

And yet on the programme the other night, we had crack dealers distributing in broad daylight on Oxford Street - the most watched street in the most watched country in the world.

They dont care that the cameras are there. Apparently, as the police officer said in the programme, its notoriously difficult to convict dealers unless one recovers the drugs, and the dealers are apt to swallow the drugs to remove the evidence, regardless of the risk to their lives.

E

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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/9/2007 2:26:20 PM

seeksfemslave

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This again is a problem exacerbated by the way our legal system works. I mean convicting those minority of criminals that are actually caught.
Despite overwhelming circumstantial evidence against them the likelyhood is that a conviction will not follow unless hard unequivocal evidence exists.

eg the police and the social services know that MsA lives with MrB. MrB has a record as long as your arm of theft of domestic goods TVs DVD players etc . MsA drives MrB car because he is banned. The car is searched and found to be full of stolen goods. She says that she has no idea how the goods got there and she didnt put them there. and anyway she hasn't got a key to the boot which she couldnt possibly have opened and which the police did have to force open.

Nothing will happen to MrB and MsA will probably either not be charged or will be found not guilty of receiving stolen goods by gormless juries.

If you want to know... I was on a jury where exactly this situation occured.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/9/2007 2:29:45 PM >

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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/9/2007 2:27:53 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

They were never intended to catch hardened criminals. I mean, what sort of criminal worth his salt is going to deal drugs in front of a camera? Everyone knows where CCTV cameras are as they're about as covert as christmas.

And yet on the programme the other night, we had crack dealers distributing in broad daylight on Oxford Street - the most watched street in the most watched country in the world.

They dont care that the cameras are there. Apparently, as the police officer said in the programme, its notoriously difficult to convict dealers unless one recovers the drugs, and the dealers are apt to swallow the drugs to remove the evidence, regardless of the risk to their lives.

E

Ah yes, the same people championing CCTV are the same people telling us they do actually detect crime.

If they do detect serious crime, and the police can't do anything about it, then why put them there in the first place.

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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/9/2007 3:09:16 PM

Real0ne

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Rule number 1) no amount of security will function properly whan big brother is involved.

Rule number 2) If security should fail see rule number 1. :)

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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/10/2007 2:21:35 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Ah yes, the same people championing CCTV are the same people telling us they do actually detect crime.

If they do detect serious crime, and the police can't do anything about it, then why put them there in the first place.

Yes. This was one of the questions asked at the start.

They dont deter. They rarely provide primary investigatory material or primary evidence- though are useful as additional confirmatory evidence once the offender has been arrested (based on old fashioned evidence). Mind you, as a passerby who might intervene to prevent an offence, I'd lay a bet that video evidence would be enough to convict you of assaulting a mugger, for instance.

The only advantage to them that I see, is in their ability to provide a lot more eyes watching for problems than ever could be deployed in terms of law enforcement personnel - but one still needs the personnel to go and intervene should a problem arise, and if one is seeing more problems, one needs more personnel with which to intervene.

At the end though, the problem remains that Britain is a lawless place for the law abiding, and that points to social and cultural problems that cannot be solved by cameras, police or prisons.

E

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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/10/2007 6:44:48 AM

petdave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

So really, there are two core questions to address:
1. How large a portion of "society" (yours, mine, the French) IS truly doing nothing but "taking" from the honest, and what do "we" (reasonably honest citizen-subjects) do about it?

From what is reported at least, 80% of all crime in the UK is committed by the same 20% of the population.

E

20% is a pretty large percentage... i think you're boned. Could just be time to grab a potato and go rob some banks.

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RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again - 5/10/2007 7:12:24 AM

Alumbrado

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Cameras seem more often than not to be politician's bandaids, much like 'Community Oriented Policing', juvenile boot camps, and pointy hats on policemen.

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