CCTV - Big Brother fails again (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 1:53:24 PM)

Programme on BBC1 at the moment about the most watched country on Earth - the UK, which has more CCTV cameras than anywhere else.

Whats amazing is that despite there being cameras everywhere - overt and covert (might be one in my front room now and I wouldnt know), crime has soared since the 1960s when they came into use.

Even more amazing the number of criminals caught on film and then caught and jailed. They dont care - which I think says a lot about our court system and criminal justice system. These are not casual, opportunistic criminals - they do it for a living - stealing from shops, breaking into cars, dealing drugs, burglary.

Then there are the drunks - casual offenders out on a Saturday night but a lot of alcoholics too all over town and any time of day - offensive language, threatening behaviour, random and cowardly violence.

If Big Brother cant control the scum of society, and his courts and gaols cant deter them, then do we have anything to fear as a whole?

Or is it rather that it is only we who have something Big Brother can take that fear the system, and we might as well indulge ourselves too?

Given that these scumbags do as they will regardless of being watched, apprehended and jailed, and go round and round the system again and again, is it the failure of Big Brother we should fear, seeing as we're the next victims?

Should Big Brother get serious and go 101 on these people?

E



domiguy -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 2:01:56 PM)

In Chicago most of the cameras as well as the roadblocks are set up in the poorer neighborhoods.



FatDomDaddy -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 2:07:01 PM)

HOW CAN THIS BE IN A COUNTRY THAT OUTLAWS GUNS!!!!!



seeksfemslave -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 2:08:04 PM)

I expect you can guess what my response is going to be: its the lack of political will feeding  into the judicial system , to implement stern  measures to deal with those who are caught indulging in serious criminal behaviour

Give 'em some HARD LABOUR, thats what I say..



LadyEllen -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 2:42:59 PM)

You know though Seeks, I find myself caught between two positions on it all.

On the one hand, I know that a lot of these people committing crime with no concern whatever, are drawn from the dispossessed, emotionally/psychologically damaged etc - people who dont care about the law and the rest of us because they dont feel they have anything to lose and dont feel society cares about them either. Their lives are failed lives - and whilst sometimes its on their own account, I suspect a lot more of them are failed lives because their lives were traumatised at some point and they couldnt cope and society didnt help. In this way, it makes me think that there must be something that could be done to resolve their issues and fix their lives.

On the other hand, it annoys me so much - the sheer cheek of it all, basically shitting all over the rest of us with a degree of arrogance and indifference unrivalled in all of history, except maybe in cases of the Einsatzkommando and Genghis Khan. When challenged, these people act as if those intervening are in the wrong, as if even commenting on their behaviour comprises a moral indignation against their person. In this way, it makes me think that genocide and eugenics might just be good ideas after all, never mind capital or corporal punishment or long imprisonment.

E



Sinergy -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 2:53:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Give 'em some HARD LABOUR, thats what I say..



While there are aspects of this I agree to, the major problem with having prisoners do hard labour is that it takes jobs away from people who need the work to feed their families.

I think we should send them all to maintain order in Iraq, and bring the nice people who were exiled over there home.

If nothing else, it will teach the criminal scum what their anti-social and anarchic criminal approach ends up creating.

Sinergy



popeye1250 -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 3:05:28 PM)

Lady, I'm with Fatdaddydom, it's a lack of the citizenry (subjectry?) being armed and being able to cull the murderers, rapists, and muggers.
If there's more of those type of people there'll be more crimes.



seeksfemslave -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 3:10:04 PM)

 
quote:

LadyE
When challenged, these people act as if those intervening are in the wrong, as if even commenting on their behaviour comprises a moral indignation against their person.

This is a perfect description of how young boys mostly but girls also are likely to react. I'm speaking  say 10yo and onwards

Sinergy:
By Hard Labour I meant in prison  Say shifting heavy stones backwards and forwards or sawing hard metal with a blunt hack saw blade. That kind of thing. The sentence to comprise a given quantity of work to be completed before release.

We also need more sensible drug policies and I think many criminals should be offered some support on release. Even if only financial tho' social would be better but it would cost the earth unfortunately.



LadyEllen -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 3:19:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Lady, I'm with Fatdaddydom, it's a lack of the citizenry (subjectry?) being armed and being able to cull the murderers, rapists, and muggers.
If there's more of those type of people there'll be more crimes.


Anyone assaulting a criminal, let alone injuring or killing them, goes to gaol - where their crime is discovered and further justice is administered by the brethren of the poor criminal against whom such vile transgression was committed. One might just get off with self defence, but I wouldnt fancy my chances in court on that one regardless of circumstances - convictions is what counts, not justice.

E



LadyEllen -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 3:24:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

We also need more sensible drug policies and I think many criminals should be offered some support on release. Even if only financial tho' social would be better but it would cost the earth unfortunately.


Personally I dont think changing drug policies would stop all this; it would merely make more people addicts and pharmacies the dealers. Once addicted, the regular script from the GP for one's heroin would soon be inadequate and we are back to square one.

I also dont think programmes help much - what are we trying to achieve with them? To convince people whose lives are crap - the reason they took to drugs in the first place - are actually not crap, whilst they remain so.

Its one thing or the other I think; intervene and solve the social problems we have that are causing all this and prompting the need for so many CCTV cameras, or damn anyone and everyone who cant or wont play by the rules of a society which even those of us following the rules think are ridiculous.

E



seeksfemslave -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 3:31:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
We also need more sensible drug policies and I think many criminals should be offered some support on release. Even if only financial tho' social would be better but it would cost the earth unfortunately.


Personally I dont think changing drug policies would stop all this; it would merely make more people addicts and pharmacies the dealers. Once addicted, the regular script from the GP for one's heroin would soon be inadequate and we are back to square one.

I also dont think programmes help much - what are we trying to achieve with them? To convince people whose lives are crap - the reason they took to drugs in the first place - are actually not crap, whilst they remain so.

Its one thing or the other I think; intervene and solve the social problems we have that are causing all this and prompting the need for so many CCTV cameras, or damn anyone and everyone who cant or wont play by the rules of a society which even those of us following the rules think are ridiculous.

E


If social help on release, I was thinking of attempts to re integrate into society and legalising drugs, which should bring the price down, wont work then we might just as well shift over to Popeye's solution. Shoot the bastards !

What we are doing now definately isn't working !



meatcleaver -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 4:31:54 PM)

When you think that Britain has the most CCTV cameras, you would think they would catch more on film than they do. Since most crime is drug related you think that fact would have sparked the idea in someone's head that what is needed is more drug rehabilitation clinics, a decriminalizing of drugs and less CCTV cameras.

The London Programme in Switzerland (originally started in London hence the name) gives addicts their dugs which allows them to hold down a steady job rather than going round and mugging everyone for drug money. The Thatcher government stopped it and governments since have had the same failed policies. As for drunks on Saturday night, well that does seem to be a British cultural problem. If you see a gang of drunken youths here in Amsterdam you can bet your life they are Brits.

CCTV cameras solve nothing. You can witness all the crime you like but if you aren't willing to solve the underlying problems, all you are going to do is get more video footage for more TV programmes.



Real0ne -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 5:36:54 PM)

what could possibly motivate someone not care about being caught?

i can think of a couple reasons i would not care if i were caught.  just a couple if you know what i mean.



pahunkboy -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 5:42:15 PM)

i think the cam thing is a double edged sword. walmart doesnt allow pictures to be taken inside of its stores- well- most cell phones have cameras now.

they had an expose of peeping toms looking up ladies skirts with a camera gizmo.

consider this. i-me- a somewhat computer literate person can alter pics. so take a pro- sound and film can be edited to make it seem like something occurred which never did. just fancy editing.

i resent the country becoming a police state. it is a slippery slope. do you pick your nose?  im sure its on cam somewhere.

also- a clip can be taken out of context.

the most brazen of criminals could care less about being filmed. they are bad boys and enjoy the adrenuline of the life of crime/

crime has been taken to a whole new level.

i was chatting with a neigbor who works as a prison guard. the picture he paints is dismal.

the closest i can come to understnading crime- is that- if you back an animal into a corner it has no choice but to agress.

some males IMO enjoy the jail thing. im not sure why.

in the 1800s you had trains being robbed- stage coaches highway robbery=

go back in history 40,000 years- this is relitively peaceful as compared to the ebb and flow of history.  since now we have a legal system- and the rule of law. which - is better then the best fighter wins....

i am afraid tho- that we have surrenderred to much of our civil liberties over the boogieman.

someday we die. thats life. but in the meantime living in the state of panic and fear is nonsense. it is not necessary.

if it is any consulation, guys in jail- dont get pussy. thats GOT to be punishment!

peace, love and harmony



petdave -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/8/2007 6:01:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
If Big Brother cant control the scum of society, and his courts and gaols cant deter them, then do we have anything to fear as a whole?

Or is it rather that it is only we who have something Big Brother can take that fear the system, and we might as well indulge ourselves too?

Given that these scumbags do as they will regardless of being watched, apprehended and jailed, and go round and round the system again and again, is it the failure of Big Brother we should fear, seeing as we're the next victims?


Occasionally when questions of individual privacy come up, there'll be the induhvidual that says that "If you're an honest citizen, you have nothing to be afraid of, so you should have nothing to hide." Your second question is the flipside of this, and very neatly stated. i believe/preach that most modern democracies have created a labyrinth of legislation in which virtually every citizen eventually commits some offense (motor vehicle code violations being the easiest example). What systematic, relentless enforcement tends to create then is often not a safer society, but simply one in which the criminal code is used to extort ad-hoc taxation from reasonably honest citizens, while those who are truly unwilling to participate in the social contract (scumbags) prey on them with relative impunity, because they are unprofitable to collect and house, and have nothing worth seizing.

So really, there are two core questions to address:
1. How large a portion of "society" (yours, mine, the French) IS truly doing nothing but "taking" from the honest, and what do "we" (reasonably honest citizen-subjects) do about it?
2. If we eliminate (jail, execute, launch into space via Giant Trebuchet) this parasitic minority, who will fill all the vacant legislative seats?




Sinergy -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/9/2007 12:56:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

By Hard Labour I meant in prison  Say shifting heavy stones backwards and forwards or sawing hard metal with a blunt hack saw blade. That kind of thing. The sentence to comprise a given quantity of work to be completed before release.



I understood what you were saying, seeksfemslave.

In the United States, chain gangs used to do things like build roads, etc.

Then somebody pointed out that non-incarcerated people could make a living and feed their families if this work was not given to prisoners.

I do not agree with taking a job away from a law-abiding citizen and giving it to a convict to save the state, the prison, or some corporation from having to pay somebody to do the work.

Sinergy



meatcleaver -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/9/2007 1:11:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

what could possibly motivate someone not care about being caught?

i can think of a couple reasons i would not care if i were caught.  just a couple if you know what i mean.



Most crimes on CCTV are petty social crimes that would take up an inordinate amount of time of the police to solve which means there would be no police for serious crimes. So what happens with so much CCTV, it doesn't make people feel any safer but more insecure while societies that aren't recording all their petty crime will feel safer. In any western society, only about 5% of crime is reported, the rest goes under the radar of most people in society except for the professionals who are aware of all of the unseen crime. In Britain, CCTV means a lot of the crime isn't going under the radar of most people.



seeksfemslave -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/9/2007 1:18:00 AM)

A funny thing about CCTV is how poor the images are, as judged by what you see when you watch "real crime"  TV programmes



LadyEllen -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/9/2007 2:25:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

If social help on release, I was thinking of attempts to re integrate into society and legalising drugs, which should bring the price down, wont work then we might just as well shift over to Popeye's solution. Shoot the bastards !

What we are doing now definately isn't working !


What we are doing now definitely isnt working - agreed.

But I dont see what you mean by reintegrating into society I'm afraid? A lot of these people come from awful backgrounds, live on sink estates (if theyre not homeless) and have no prospects whatever. I'm an employer - I'd give an ex offender a job for sure, but likely only if there was no one else, and I'd fear that I'd come to regret it; and I'm one of the nice ones (or daft in the head as most think).

We cannot rehabilitate these people by making them somehow accept their shitty lives - for their lives are unacceptable. They have nothing to gain by playing by the rules and nothing to lose by breaking them.

On the drugs question, well there could be a Huxley-esque reasoning that said its better to give these people drugs to block out that their lives are rubbish and going nowhere - but are we really saying that the species that has conquered every challenge thrown at it for centuries is incapable of solving its own inherent problems without resort to chemical doping of parts of the population? The people likely to qualify are contributing nothing at the moment and would cost still more with such a programme - though it solves the problems of the rest of us. It sounds very close to me, to having them trucked to the countryside to dig a large ditch where they can be deposited and grassed over.

E



LadyEllen -> RE: CCTV - Big Brother fails again (5/9/2007 2:33:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

When you think that Britain has the most CCTV cameras, you would think they would catch more on film than they do. Since most crime is drug related you think that fact would have sparked the idea in someone's head that what is needed is more drug rehabilitation clinics, a decriminalizing of drugs and less CCTV cameras.

The London Programme in Switzerland (originally started in London hence the name) gives addicts their dugs which allows them to hold down a steady job rather than going round and mugging everyone for drug money. The Thatcher government stopped it and governments since have had the same failed policies. As for drunks on Saturday night, well that does seem to be a British cultural problem. If you see a gang of drunken youths here in Amsterdam you can bet your life they are Brits.

CCTV cameras solve nothing. You can witness all the crime you like but if you aren't willing to solve the underlying problems, all you are going to do is get more video footage for more TV programmes.


Youre right of course - our provision for drugs rehabilitation (including the most vile drug known as alcohol) is lamentable. The problem being, that one gets more votes for saying one will punish these people than if one says one will help them. But we can have all the programmes we want, and yet the underlying causes of drug use will remain - a social and emotional quality of life which is awful. And dont get me started on Thatcher, please!

Youre right about the cameras too - they dont deter crime at all. All they do is gather data on the parlous state of society.

E



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