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Gas - 5/8/2007 5:20:30 AM

Level

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Where gasoline is cheap, and why it's making yours pricey
Friday May 4, 3:12 pm ET
By Steve Hargreaves, CNNMoney.com staff writer

In Saudi Arabia gasoline costs about 45 cents a gallon. In Iran it's 33. Venezuelans pay under a quarter.
These absurdly low prices are a direct result of massive government subsidies.

While these numbers are not adjusted for cost of living, it's fair to say that drivers in those countries are getting a good deal.

http://biz.yahoo.com/cnnm/070504/050407_gas_demand.html?.v=1&.pf=family-home

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Post #: 1

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 5:41:14 AM

MyMasterStephen

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Joined: 8/16/2005
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More American whingeing about fuel prices?

Over here we pay $6 a gallon. If you paid the same, perhaps you wouldn't squander it quite as blithely as you do.

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Post #: 2

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 6:51:18 AM

igor2003

Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen

More American whingeing about fuel prices?

Over here we pay $6 a gallon. If you paid the same, perhaps you wouldn't squander it quite as blithely as you do.

I, as an American, will admit that there is still a lot of waste in the use of fossel fuels here. We have over a century of bad habits that we need to break and that doesn't happen over night. But i do take offense at your attitude. The prices of gas ARE high, though maybe not to the extent of prices in the UK...and yes i can and WILL whine about it because there is not a good reason for the prices to be this high. (I won't go into the political and corporate reasons FOR the high prices, though i would whine about that a lot too!) And i will also whine about it because it is NOT just about the cost of fuel. The entire UK is smaller than our state of Oregon. You don't have the vast distances that goods and produce have to be shipped. Every mile that has to be traveled with those shipments is reflected in higher retail costs because of higher fuel costs. It's not just the cost of the fuel, it's the cost of EVERYTHING that is going up because of higher fuel costs. And it is not just in the shipping. Farmers have to pay more for fuel to raise crops, so food prices are going up and up. Many of us have to commute a good distance to get to and from work and there is no public transport that operates in many areas. So we drive and the cost of driving is taking a bigger and bigger chunk out of our paychecks....because of the UNNECESSARY high cost of fuel. I'm a carpenter. I couldn't take public transport even if it was available here because of the tools and equipment i have to take.So yes, i'm going to whine about it.

And no, i don't "just" whine. I try to be conservative. I plan what i have to do to travel the fewest miles and i try to drive vehicles that are more fuel efficient. I try to change the political causes of high fuel costs with my vote, and when at all possible i try to avoid doing business with companies that cause the high prices.

You don't like my whining? Then don't listen.

(in reply to MyMasterStephen)

Post #: 3

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 7:05:10 AM

MyMasterStephen

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Joined: 8/16/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen

More American whingeing about fuel prices?

Over here we pay $6 a gallon. If you paid the same, perhaps you wouldn't squander it quite as blithely as you do.

The entire UK is smaller than our state of Oregon. You don't have the vast distances that goods and produce have to be shipped. Every mile that has to be traveled with those shipments is reflected in higher retail costs because of higher fuel costs. It's not just the cost of the fuel, it's the cost of EVERYTHING that is going up because of higher fuel costs. And it is not just in the shipping. Farmers have to pay more for fuel to raise crops, so food prices are going up and up. Many of us have to commute a good distance to get to and from work and there is no public transport that operates in many areas.

Yes, the UK is small. No, we don't have to ship goods vast distances overland. And nor do you: but you choose to. Make a different choice. Produce locally. Decentralise. Advocate for more and better public transport. A friend who moved to OK a year ago is staggered by the lack of public transport. She has no car, so she has to walk miles to get her groceries. Produce food locally, process it locally, consume it. Read EF Schumacher. Cut out the religion, and he makes a lot of sense.

It is not my intention to offend, but to make a point forcefully. This inevitably requires broad brush-strokes. Change is necessary: the status quo cannot continue indefinitely.

(in reply to igor2003)

Post #: 4

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 7:22:11 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Well it is their oil, so I am not surprised that they get it so cheaply...

Not to mention, the reason we are paying out our asses for the stuff is because the oil companies need more record profits, and Bush is obliging them. You know, they shut down key refineries in California a couple of years ago, we needed those refineries, but they shut them down anyways, why? To drive up the price.

Just sayin

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Post #: 5

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 8:06:53 AM

aviinterra

Posts: 208
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline

I agree with most of these suggestions. I work in Boston and it is appalling that people bring in their car when they live next to a subway station. Or they live in the city center and still have to drive two blocks to the market to get a small bag of oranges. There would be so many benefits if people just took a bike or walked. They might then loose some weight and not have to worry about being out breath after walking once around the mall. I agree that all food should be grown and brought locally, with exceptions of some more 'luxurious' items from the tropics or far away. It is why this year I am investing in a co-op at a local farm. Also, I never understood why we have to use trucks to move cargo across the country- can't we just put the loads on trains and then distribute locally???

(in reply to MyMasterStephen)

Post #: 6

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 8:26:14 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

To make this an 'apples to apples' comparison you need to read the small print at the pump. The Federal government, each state, and some local municipalities, add taxes to the price. I don't know what it is here, but next time I fill I'll note it.

Imagine the environmentalists outcry if a new refinery was considered for CA? What about a nuclear power plant? What corporation would be crazy enough to put forth any plan for such a new facility? You can't get a Walmart opened. By the time the environmental study was concluded and plans approved, dilithium crystals will be the standard power source.

Mobile tried to re-open a plant last summer, they were turned down flat. How convenient to blame corporations if they do and if they don't. It keeps the boogie man outside the door and out of the mirror.

(in reply to aviinterra)

Post #: 7

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 8:33:10 AM

MellowSir

Posts: 260
Joined: 4/17/2007
Status: offline

Gas in Saudi Arabia, 40 cents a gallon, Iran, 30 cents, Venuzuela, 25 cents. Their governments at least subsidize the costs to keep them low, ours is more interested in paying for war and political agendas than it is in taking care of people at home. Go figure......

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 8

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 8:51:00 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

I, as an American, will admit that there is still a lot of waste in the use of fossel fuels here. We have over a century of bad habits that we need to break and that doesn't happen over night. But i do take offense at your attitude. The prices of gas ARE high, though maybe not to the extent of prices in the UK...and yes i can and WILL whine about it because there is not a good reason for the prices to be this high. (I won't go into the political and corporate reasons FOR the high prices, though i would whine about that a lot too!) And i will also whine about it because it is NOT just about the cost of fuel. The entire UK is smaller than our state of Oregon. You don't have the vast distances that goods and produce have to be shipped. Every mile that has to be traveled with those shipments is reflected in higher retail costs because of higher fuel costs. It's not just the cost of the fuel, it's the cost of EVERYTHING that is going up because of higher fuel costs. And it is not just in the shipping. Farmers have to pay more for fuel to raise crops, so food prices are going up and up. Many of us have to commute a good distance to get to and from work and there is no public transport that operates in many areas. So we drive and the cost of driving is taking a bigger and bigger chunk out of our paychecks....because of the UNNECESSARY high cost of fuel. I'm a carpenter. I couldn't take public transport even if it was available here because of the tools and equipment i have to take.So yes, i'm going to whine about it.

And no, i don't "just" whine. I try to be conservative. I plan what i have to do to travel the fewest miles and i try to drive vehicles that are more fuel efficient. I try to change the political causes of high fuel costs with my vote, and when at all possible i try to avoid doing business with companies that cause the high prices.

You don't like my whining? Then don't listen.

I actually read somewhere that the average American commutes as far as the average European. Most Americans live in urban areas and that makes it hardly surprising. Yes, you could discuss Bud who lives in the middle of the Nevada desert but he is not the average American. We could discuss Pierre who herds goats in the Pyrenees.

As for the complaints in the artcle about other countries subsidizing their gas and so not letting the free market work, why should countries let their poor pay the same as rich Americans, especially if it is their oil in the first place? It is their resources, it is up to them if they subsidize it for their citizens and let others in the world pay more because of the demand. If gas commanded low prices like coffee, those same rich people (relatively) who complain now wouldn't care a toss if those same people were going hungry.

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Post #: 9

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 8:51:17 AM

Sekhemet

Posts: 127
Joined: 7/10/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

it begs the question: How do these governments who can't feed their people and need assistance from G8 countries manage to come up with the funds in order to subsidize such things, en masse no less.

Interesting curiosity ... huh.
Think straight - see clearly ... and inform your peeps in power these countries - if these governments charged real prices, if they didn't spend milions keeping it cheap, if they taxed the stuff too - How much LESS of a payment would our G8 countries be asked to "donate to the needy?" And how much more funds would they have in the coffers?

Don't be a sheep - ask the pointed questions.
XxoxX

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Post #: 10

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 8:52:02 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

And this "global economy" doesn't help either.
Does anyone realise how much fuel a large container ship uses per 24 hour day of sailing?
It's a couple of hundred tons I believe.
Then when stuff is off-loaded in Calif if it needs to go to Boston say, it usually goes by trucks that get maybe 8 mpg.
This whole "global economy" thing is heavily fuel dependant.
Another reason why I try to "Buy American Made" whenever possible. And I don't do any business with companies that outsource or move their plants overseas.
Haines underware is the latest one I don't do business with as they moved their plant from this state to Central America.

(in reply to MellowSir)

Post #: 11

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 9:01:43 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sekhemet

Interesting curiosity ... huh.
Think straight - see clearly ... and inform your peeps in power these countries - if these governments charged real prices, if they didn't spend milions keeping it cheap, if they taxed the stuff too - How much LESS of a payment would our G8 countries be asked to "donate to the needy?" And how much more funds would they have in the coffers?

It might be in the interest of the economy of these countries to subsidize gas just like it appears to be in the interest of the US and the EU to subsidize agriculture, which is a heavy fuel dependent industry so you could say that the west indirectly subsidizes fuel for some parts of their economy.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 12

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 9:21:58 AM

Sekhemet

Posts: 127
Joined: 7/10/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As for the complaints in the artcle about other countries subsidizing their gas and so not letting the free market work, why should countries let their poor pay the same as rich Americans, especially if it is their oil in the first place? It is their resources, it is up to them if they subsidize it for their citizens and let others in the world pay more because of the demand. If gas commanded low prices like coffee, those same rich people (relatively) who complain now wouldn't care a toss if those same people were going hungry.

I think I partially answered your question - but can I also point out to you - Canada and the USA - DO produce oil, and produce enough of it to BE self sustaining - And um HATE to break it to you but the biggest untapped reserves are uh ... NORTH of the 49th (parallel) ... We shouldn't be paying so much period, but as for governments who see your gas tank as their wallet ... They're GOING to pick your pocket. These other bozos - well you can keep sending them cash so they can fund everything except what the cash was sent for. Take your hard earned dollars to susbsidize gas, which costs them more - again - well there's NO PROFIT now, is there. Can't be if it's subsidized - so they pay for this 2x over, once to drop the cost - once when they have no profit.
Poor places are poor for a reason; mostly they have no clue the actual value of anything; including their coffee and sugar, what do you think a Brazillian would say if they knew you were paying $6 for a StarSchmucks??? They have no idea, and the sad thing is no one will tell them and even if you did, they'd not believe you, $6 for a coffee?!?!? Thats half their monthly income man!!!! A XL coffee up here, is $2 at Tim Horton's ...
But - as well as this look at their missing leadership and lack of social cohesion, it's a theme among the 3rd world dwellers. Those who refuse to live that way - leave. ANYWAY they can, and they DO find ways out. Ah My - immigration is a whole other thread, isnt it (funny how they tie in together though) - So do ponder this one: "would you rather they stayed put, starved, and got cheap gas subsidized by a dictator who should be worrying about feeding people - or they are safe, and working and have purpose?"

You have a say - you have politicians you can bitch at, who will listen instead of shooting you - and you CAN make a difference ... Pick your battles wisely, and once you're in it fight with everything you have. This one - is a sensible mess, it has lots of repercussions, in all the right ways.
XxoxX

P.S. if you think on person and one voice can not do anything or make a difference you have to be dead, or stupid. Einstien (maths) - Freud(psych) - Edison(misc toy inventor) - Tesla (electrical genius) - Banting (discovered insulin) - Furman (pace maker pioneer) - et al. You can make a difference - IF YOU CHOOSE TO!
Not unlike D/s - You can be a ok Top, a good top, or a brilliant top - If you choose to put the effort in and show up. Same can be said for the bottoms among us, will you be average, will you stand out, or will you be a social Tesla igniting insiprations everywhere you turn??

Its up to you - but whinning serves no one. Bitching serves not even yourself. And starting a ruckus without cause - is an insult to the intelligence of everyone you seek to incite - Including yourself.

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Post #: 13

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 9:26:57 AM

Sekhemet

Posts: 127
Joined: 7/10/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sekhemet

Interesting curiosity ... huh.
Think straight - see clearly ... and inform your peeps in power these countries - if these governments charged real prices, if they didn't spend milions keeping it cheap, if they taxed the stuff too - How much LESS of a payment would our G8 countries be asked to "donate to the needy?" And how much more funds would they have in the coffers?

It might be in the interest of the economy of these countries to subsidize gas just like it appears to be in the interest of the US and the EU to subsidize agriculture, which is a heavy fuel dependent industry so you could say that the west indirectly subsidizes fuel for some parts of their economy.

Wow yer smart!!
Gov't subsidize farmers because ...
1) no one knows if a crop WILL actually grow on ANY given year
2) No one knows what the market price will be when harvest and sale time comes
3) the governments BUY the crops at this "rate" and they turn it over to the 3rd world countries - Indeed sometimes they even provide the seed to the farmers too!! Well where do you think they GET those genetically engineered crops from, they simply appear!!??!?!
4) Many farms do not make money and are lucky to break even
5) People need to eat - they don't NEED to drive
6) You want the "fat cheque" and are jealous - go grow yourself 500 acres of corn and come back and spew.

Your lack of intellect is mind boggling.
Again - as I have said to you before - research more spew less. It really would do you some good.
XxoxX

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(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 14

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 9:42:39 AM

Sekhemet

Posts: 127
Joined: 7/10/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

OH and meatcleaver BTW - ther's a herd of deer eatting yer product in the middle 20 acres and you have drainage issues in the back 40 - and there will be NO RAIN for the next 6 weeks ... the cost of fertilizer just went up and pesticides are now illegal ... the north field is full of rocks again and will need to be cleared (rock picking in farm fields is done on foot, and by hand BTW) ... the government just bought your crop for 20 cents a bushel but will sell it for $15 and you will have to buy your own produce back at that inflated price as well ... The neighbors cows keep breaking down the fence on the west side ... the tractor broke down AGAIN - oh and little tommy's school is looking to do tours again this year ... and again - right at harvest time, you'll need to hire some helpers for that week.

Still feel enthused?
SOMEONE better be paying you to do it huh ... Cause to be doing all that in ONE WEEK and then not even know what those soya beans will be selling for ... Not many have the fortitude, thats why yer all in the city and buying yer dinner, not growing it. *chuckles* Just a little insight there for the uneducated and those who think a farmer works 3 weeks out of the year - if you believe this spend some time on a working farm and you'll KNOW why these people are up at 4:30/5am ... not cause it's cool - but rather because it's a need, and a lot of long days doing hard work that's unapprecaited and taken for granted.

And yet you think it's ok for a hospital janitor to be making 150 000 a year? Up here the gov't pays medical staff wages right - So this means in effect OUR Canadian Govt is subsidizing ... JANITORS????? And yet I know a few Ladies who are Nurses and can't get hours to save their lives but the shortage for workers is messed.
All these things are more of the same - as the saying goes; "same stink different pile" And the janitor story broke and within 3 days their wages were all seriously cut - Public outcry. Voices do matter - Use them.
But uh cleaver YOU get out there and start pickin them rocks, it'll take you 4 days to do the whole field and you're going to need the tractor for a few of them, but it's broken ... remember? Oh and that price of gas ... has AGAIN just gone up and the tank is of course ... EMPTY *snickers*
XxoxX

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Post #: 15

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 10:02:11 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

REMEMBER: For the more than 300 BILLION DOLLARS wasted in Iraq, we could have had our network of Space Based Solar/Beamed Microwave energy satellites, and been able to GIVE energy away to our Strategic Partners.

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Post #: 16

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 10:08:00 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sekhemet

Its up to you - but whinning serves no one. Bitching serves not even yourself. And starting a ruckus without cause - is an insult to the intelligence of everyone you seek to incite - Including yourself.

Then why were you whining and bitching? This whole thread is a whine and a bitch about other countries subsidizing gas and America having to pay more because of it.

Your words I believe.

How do these governments who can't feed their people and need assistance from G8 countries manage to come up with the funds in order to subsidize such things, en masse no less.

Interesting curiosity ... huh.
Think straight - see clearly ... and inform your peeps in power these countries - if these governments charged real prices, if they didn't spend milions keeping it cheap, if they taxed the stuff too - How much LESS of a payment would our G8 countries be asked to "donate to the needy?" And how much more funds would they have in the coffers?

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sekhemet)

Post #: 17

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 10:11:08 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18543885/

OOPS... 600 BILLION. We could have had TWO....

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 18

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 10:29:04 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Then why were you whining and bitching? This whole thread is a whine and a bitch about other countries subsidizing gas and America having to pay more because of it.

I haven't seen anyone whining or bitching. I thought the OP was strictly informational.

What I did see, was someone that came to a faulty conclusion that this post was all about whining. I have no idea how he came to this baseless accusation, since his post was directly after the OP, which contained only a link and absolutely no opinion one way or the other.

Perhaps you and he are related ... or ... he is trying to take your title as "The Completely Inaccurate, Baseless Accusation King of this Forum."

Frankly, he has a long way to go ... but the day is young, and you have an almost 4,800 post advantage on him.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 19

RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 11:26:24 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

How do we know that these countries Saudi Arabia,Iran and Venezuela are subsidizing their citizens with low gasoline prices? How do we know that these prices do or do not represent the cost of production plus a profit for the distrubution chain? Is it possible that these prices are not subsidized?
I did not know that Iran,Venezuela or Saudi Arabia had petitioned the G8 countries for debt relief or that they had any outstanding debt to the G8 countries
thompson

(in reply to Sekhemet)

Post #: 20

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