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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 12:10:38 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Then why were you whining and bitching? This whole thread is a whine and a bitch about other countries subsidizing gas and America having to pay more because of it.


I haven't seen anyone whining or bitching. I thought the OP was strictly informational.
 


Where gasoline is cheap, and why it's making yours pricey
 
Read the headline, if that is not a loaded headline about why its readership is having to pay more for gas because of someone else's actions I don't know what is. I didn't say Level as the original poster was whining and bitching, however, I did ask why sekhemet was whining and bitching when she was accusing other people of whining and bitching. 

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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 1:17:26 PM   
Sinergy


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What a lot of the major shippers have come to realize over the past 40 years is that the most efficient form of moving goods over any distance by land is by rail.  Because there is such a limited amount of rail carrying capacity leaving LA harbor, this stuff gets loaded on a truck, driven up into the middle of nowhere up by Barstow, where it is loaded on a train and sent on it's way.

The reason we use so many trucks is because we have had 80 years of the automotive industry doing everything they possibly can to prevent building rail infrastructure.  They can force the average consumer to drive an inefficient gas guzzler, but Walmart can tell them to go screw themselves and force their own pet congressmen to vote to improve on the rail infrastructure.

Canada is ahead of the US on this.  The Canadians recently upgraded their rail systems to use hybrid locomotives, which the US only uses in switching stations.

The technology is out there.  What needs to happen is for the government to stop wasting our resources trying to start world war 3 in the desert and go back to building a first class economy at home.

Sinergy

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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 1:29:29 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Because there is such a limited amount of rail carrying capacity leaving LA harbor, this stuff gets loaded on a truck, driven up into the middle of nowhere up by Barstow, where it is loaded on a train and sent on it's way.

The reason we use so many trucks is because we have had 80 years of the automotive industry doing everything they possibly can to prevent building rail infrastructure. 


Damn if that isn't the truth!

I found it amazing when I moved here that there was no direct rail from LA to SF. It's incredible that you can't take a train from LA to Vegas.

Coming from the East coast, as long as you were near the 'main line' you could get by without a car. In CA it is impossible. There is no intercity rail and the light rail, at least for LA, goes to few places that mirror the workforce.

I've been told that it was deliberate, albeit poor, planning. When LA started to grow a consortium of auto manufactures, oil companies, and even tire companies; lobbied for highways and against updating rail service. Don't know if it's true history or urban legend.

I loved traveling by rail back east and used Amtrak anytime I could to travel from Baltimore to Boston. Anything more than that from my base of operations took too long to be practical. The reason it wasn't practical is that the tracks were too old to support the fastest engines available. We can't have a 'bullet train' on tracks designed for a steam locomotive.

Were it available, I sure as hell would use a similar service to travel to SD, SF, Vegas, out here. Last week driving to Vegas I noticed the rail system, but the tracks are owned by the rail freight companies who give passenger service low priority.

We need some modern age railroad 'barons' to finance a renaissance in the US rail system.

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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 1:43:06 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

We need some modern age railroad 'barons' to finance a renaissance in the US rail system.



The shipping companies are actively lobbying to build this rail infrastructure.  The cost of several million dollars per mile of track makes it a Mexican standoff between the shipping companies and the Government since both of them think the other one should pony up the money to do it.

Did a search on the internet and came up with the following http://www.erha.org/plot.htm which talks about the conspiracy. 

I found a link on the law which is referred to that was passed by the Congress in 1935.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Utility_Holding_Company_Act_of_1935

or the following

http://www.citizen.org/documents/puhcafordummies.pdf

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 1:46:52 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


What a lot of the major shippers have come to realize over the past 40 years is that the most efficient form of moving goods over any distance by land is by rail. 


So true. There is a railway line being built from the Ruhr valley in Germany to the port of Rotterdam specifically to carry goods. The capacity of the rail link will be the equivalent of building two new highways full of trucks. The equation for road haulage doesn't add up unless for short journeys off major routes.

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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 1:53:50 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


What a lot of the major shippers have come to realize over the past 40 years is that the most efficient form of moving goods over any distance by land is by rail. 


So true. There is a railway line being built from the Ruhr valley in Germany to the port of Rotterdam specifically to carry goods. The capacity of the rail link will be the equivalent of building two new highways full of trucks. The equation for road haulage doesn't add up unless for short journeys off major routes.


It is not just capacity.

A single train is approximately 7 miles of double stacked containers at 2 (3 if you stack a can on twin 20' containers) containers every 80 or so feet.

That is a lot of containers, a lot of capacity, and one deisel truck burning gas less on our highway for every one the train pulls.

The net cost to pull a can by a truck vs. pulling a can on a train is pennies on the dollar in favor of the train.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 1:54:02 PM   
selfbnd411


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quote:


We need some modern age railroad 'barons' to finance a renaissance in the US rail system.


I like rail as much as the next guy, but the railroad barons of the 19th century did not finance the creation of the American rail system.  It was very heaviliy subsidized by the public through generous government land grants and loans.  Here's a link to a good article describing how much government money went into the construction of American railroads:

http://www.coxrail.com/land-grants.htm

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 2:01:33 PM   
Mercnbeth


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Status: offline 		I've heard the millions dollars per mile figure. It will take a long time for any corporation, or individual to get that back.

The shipping companies are self serving. They want the track built by someone else, but they also want primary access. The air shipping companies always do better than passenger carriers because they get, on average, $25/pound or more for what they ship and don't have to provide peanuts, soft-drinks, or stewards. Seems the rail shippers are using the same approach manufactures use in getting the local government to build them factories and infrastructure for free with the promise of bringing jobs. Bull! The money is there. All they have to do is work with projections into the next quarter century instead of the next calender quarter.

If the government builds it they should own it or at least a chunk of it in the same way a venture capital company gets involved.

Maybe the "solution" is $10/gallon gas. When that happens all the Vegas casinos will build the railroad on their dime just to bring in customers. I think Wynn, the MGM group, and Caesars, would have a Billion or so to invest to insure their future.

Thanks for the links, never knew if the stories told me by the locals had any basis in truth.

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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 2:13:55 PM   
Sinergy


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Every entity, in general, Mercnbeth, tends to be self serving.

I agree with you.  I think the goverment should build the damn rail system and then tax the shipping companies for every container sent on it.  The shippers can then turn around and charge more to those doing the shipping.  Etc.

While this may sound expensive, I want to point out the standard approach shipping companies use is to ship empty containers around to fill the ship or train.  Seems backwards, but this is done because it is cheaper for Triton (a container leasing company) to ship their empty can from LA/LB to Hong Kong than it is to pay APL to stack it in their yard until it is needed.  The term for them being charged to keep a can in a specific place is Demurrage, and it is quite expensive.

So a can (for example) number TEXU9898981 might be empty and spend the first six months of the year being empty and visiting LA/LB, SF, Portland, Oakland, Honolulu, Shanghai, LA/LB, New Orleans, Rotterdam, New Orleans, Portland, etc.  I call it the Empty Container World Tour 2007.

The objection the shipping companies have to taxes is that it will raise prices, but shipping companies already do things which raise consumer prices for their own personal benefit.

There are other issues involved.  The government can use eminent domain.  APM decides to build a rail system to Barstow and they buy every house along the way except one person who doesnt want to sell, they have no legal way to force the sale.  They are now dead in the water.

I have made the point in other threads that I believe I pay taxes to our government so that my government can do things to provide the infrastructure so all of us can have a better (whatever that means) life. 

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
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"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 2:34:16 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		I had a cousin who was the CFO for a shipping container leasing firm. He explained it exactly as you did. Back in those days, at least 15-20 years ago, I think he said that each container was leased by his firm for about $1.50/day plus the storage cost. Now every time I see a stack of containers I "do the math" for how much money is represented. He said there was a container for every person alive in the world. Was that bullshit or fact?  

I was going to go down the 'eminent domain' path, but wonder how much shit that will stir up. Another function of the general publics naiveté, they would equate the corporations and individuals being forced to sell barren desert at a government set price per acre to their parents losing their homes because a local government wants to permit a builder to construct a better tax base paying mall. (Oh wait - they did do that in Massachusetts!) See - that's why I didn't want to bring it up.

A new national rail project would be a much better use of tax dollar than any other. It would make a great "green" plank for any candidates presidential platform. The project would bring good jobs, serve a purpose, and address future energy needs. It almost makes too much sense for it to happen. Paying for it could be as easy as adding a $1/gallon to fund the project, reducing consumption short term with a good long term solution. What was done to create the highway system can and should be done with a rail program.

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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 2:39:50 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I had a cousin who was the CFO for a shipping container leasing firm. He explained it exactly as you did. Back in those days, at least 15-20 years ago, I think he said that each container was leased by his firm for about $1.50/day plus the storage cost. Now every time I see a stack of containers I "do the math" for how much money is represented. He said there was a container for every person alive in the world. Was that bullshit or fact?  



Today, I have watched 5 ships pull in to Long Beach harbor from my porch.  Each of these carries 8000+ containers.  I can look over the harbor and see (hundreds of?) thousands of stacked containers.  I can see thousands of containers on chassis.

This is just one harbor.

I have a really great view. 

I would not be surprised if there are 6-8 billion containers on the planet.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 2:44:10 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Today, I have watched 5 ships pull in to Long Beach harbor from my porch.  Each of these carries 8000+ containers.  I can look over the harbor and see (hundreds of?) thousands of stacked containers.  I can see thousands of containers on chassis.


Hell - your view is the other side of the hill from mine. Looks like you are "off" today - why not come to the South Bay Munch at the National in Torrance?

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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 2:48:37 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Today, I have watched 5 ships pull in to Long Beach harbor from my porch.  Each of these carries 8000+ containers.  I can look over the harbor and see (hundreds of?) thousands of stacked containers.  I can see thousands of containers on chassis.


Hell - your view is the other side of the hill from mine. Looks like you are "off" today - why not come to the South Bay Munch at the National in Torrance?


Thanks for the invite, but I am working tonight.  Is it the first Tuesday of the month?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 2:56:46 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Is it the first Tuesday of the month?


2nd Tuesday or 4th Thursday.

Usually either Beach Mistress or me adds a reminder in the Upcoming Events section. The Tuesday one is better attended and more lively because we have our own private room at a bar. The Thursday one is at a Bob's Big Boy and although we fill up a section of the place its in the open and doesn't have the same atmosphere. People can't walk around and chat as easily. 

Maybe next time!

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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 3:18:20 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen
More American whingeing about fuel prices?
Over here we pay $6 a gallon.  If you paid the same, perhaps you wouldn't squander it quite as blithely as you do.


Well I say, speaking as a Brit. you cant enjoy your driving if you dont squander a bit of Gas, petrol to me.

I'm an oldie but I'm still a bit rev happy. lol

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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 3:25:00 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen

More American whingeing about fuel prices?

Over here we pay $6 a gallon.  If you paid the same, perhaps you wouldn't squander it quite as blithely as you do.


Why do you  people misspell "whine"?
 
A lot of gas is squandered all over the world, we certainly do our share.

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RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 3:38:06 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		I like to drink my "whine".

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 3:40:16 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I like to drink my "whine".


Dont forget the room temperature brie and a seeded baguette hot out of the oven.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Gas - 5/8/2007 4:48:53 PM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		Every few years I see in the newspaper an old design for a "mag lev" high speed bullet train from LA to Vegas.  Everytime I see the plan in the paper a few more zeros have been added to the price tag but then what is money worth..  What I fail to under stand is how that would make the wealthest people in our country wealthier.  When I do figure that out then the rail line will be built.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/8/2007 4:52:23 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 39
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