RE: Seduction and limits

RE: Seduction and limits (Full Version)

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CreativeDominant -> RE: Seduction and limits (5/7/2007 5:50:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ICGsteve If you are Dom how far would you be willing to take seduction in order to test limits? If you are sub when does seduction become abusive manipulation? My own view is so long as the Dom believes they are in tune with the sub, and so long as they believe that where they want to take the relationship will be good for the relationship, then all seduction is fair. There are many ways to get a submissive to push past her soft limits. It is fun to push soft limits, as long as you know when to quit pushing and that is up to each individual within the dynamic and the dynamic itself. D/s, while adhering to commands and obedience, also has psychological tools as a factor and seduction does entail some forms of manipulation. A lot of people look at manipulation in a bad way and when it is done to gain personally and not for the good of the relationship and/or your partner, it is despicable. There are also ways to get her to push past hard limits are...but, in my mind, there are some questions have to be asked because of something you stated in a later post. It also touches on something above... What are those hard limits? Why are they in place? Most submissives have a reason for why a hard limit is in place ...prior bad experiences, moral dilemma, etc....and if that limit is due to a moral or legal issue, you might want to do a lot of thinking and tread carefully when your thinking takes you to a place that you decide that their hard limit is to be pushed. That brings me to that which I mentioned earlier...you said in a later post about deciding that pushing the submissive into areas she doesn't want to go would be done if you had decided that it was best for her, despite what she said/thought/felt. While I agree that, especially in the case of soft limits or in other ways having nothing to do with play, a submissive will sometimes need to have the dominant decide that it will be done HIS/HER way (and I agree with that), I personally think that the bigger the "whatever" is, the more careful the dominant has to be.

ICGsteve -> RE: Seduction and limits (5/7/2007 6:06:33 PM)
What the sub says is a hard limit is often not a hard limit, so often in fact that stated hard limits don't warrent a lot of attention. However, if a Dom ever pushes past what the sub believes to be a hard limit then they must be right 100% of the time that it is not a hard limit. If a Dom ever pushed past a stated or believed hard limit only to find that it really is a hard limit then they have abused the sub. Doms MUST know themselves and their subs very well before they play with high powered tools. Sometimes a Dom must not push. Times of rest are useful to preparing the sub for the next push.

Celeste43 -> RE: Seduction and limits (5/7/2007 7:09:09 PM)
I've known several people who rely on charm and seductiveness to get their way, uncaring of the destruction left in their paths. I'm immune to it and have been since I was underage. If he tried that instead of talking to me as an adult, respecting me and my feelings, I would lose all trust and respect for him. And that would end the relationship.

ICGsteve -> RE: Seduction and limits (5/7/2007 8:41:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Celeste43 I've known several people who rely on charm and seductiveness to get their way, uncaring of the destruction left in their paths. I'm immune to it and have been since I was underage. If he tried that instead of talking to me as an adult, respecting me and my feelings, I would lose all trust and respect for him. And that would end the relationship. Maybe, but charm trust and respect have nothing to do with seduction. Playing the rake, rouge or scoundrel works much better than being the charmer most of the time. Respect is a concept of ethics, it is of the head, and seduction bypasses logic. If I was seducing you I would not care if you trusted or respected me, I might even play up what a cad I am if you secretly go for the dangerous types.A seducer does not care what you (your head) wants, what you believe you want, or what you say you want, he cares only about what your heart desires. Then he packages himself up in that garb, has his way with you before your head gets in the way, and if he wants you some more he will seduce you all over again. My guess is that you have never been properly seduced. Those who think themselves to be immune to seduction usually make the sweetest victims because they don't respect the power of seduction and are not watching for the mechanics of seduction.

aldompdx -> RE: Seduction and limits (5/8/2007 12:04:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ICGsteve surelyujest71 brings up a good point: People can never be seduced into something that they don't want to be seduced into. Same goes for brain washing. Those who were part of the Jim Jones cult for instance were willing participants in their brain washing and deaths. The consent is never conscious or overt, which is why current BDSM doctrine does not recognize it, but it is real. The effectiveness of seduction is determined by the intended victim. However, in modern society seduction is fabulously effective, as most people have no idea that it is real. titleAndStar(1,0,0,false,"","") So then... the world is totally devoid of ignorance? The little children in Guyana were responsible for their own torture? They should have known better, ran away from home, and never followed their parents there? Next you will be saying that the Jews voluntarily interned themselves in the Nazi concentration camps. Denying the chaos and ignorance that actually does exist in the world does not make it go away. There are people who are more impressionable than others. There are people who suffer unforseeable events, or are oppressed by powers beyond their control. How did you form your perspective that everybody is fully informed with perfect foresight? My experience is that NOBODY is perfect. Not me. But perhaps you are the first perfect person I have encountered, and can speak with authority that there is no such thing as an accident -- every event in one's life is 100% their own intention? Of course, no reply is needed, because you certainly anticipated my response to your comment... To offer one would only rebutt your initial contention.

ICGsteve -> RE: Seduction and limits (5/8/2007 5:16:21 AM)
In the JJ case I am sure that those in the cult were ignorant of how they were being manipulated, and possibly about why they liked what they now liked, they were however very aware of how they were changing....and they liked it very much. In seduction the victim is willfully ignorant about the means of seduction, but they are not ignorant about themselves. They are very in touch with themselves. The seducer supplies what is craved, and the victim eats it up and complies with the demands of the one supplying. I don't see what ignorance has to do with this. Sometimes people don't know what they want so the person who supplies it has power over them simply because they are doing what the victim could do themselves (supply their desire) if they were aware of it...is that what you mean??

TigressFL -> RE: Seduction and limits (5/8/2007 5:47:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ICGsteve 'Play my way or leave" is probably the most common seduction tool of Doms. Once you know they need you then it is time to play this card. You force them to choose between internal change or the pain of losing you. Very effective. I inform them within the first couple of times that we discuss play. I do not allow them to get attached to me and then drop the bomb. It is as fundamental to me as the reality that I do not want any children living in my household which is also discussed up front. Again there is no need for seduction, there is simply a need to find someone that is compatible which means they go into it, eyes wide open and in agreement. Not every approach is seduction no matter how you think it is or want it to be.

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