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Musicmystery -> Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 7:58:20 PM)
As the U.S. enters (earlier than ever) a new political season (in the middle of an elective war) in anticipation of the 2008 presidential election, will religion again play a major role? Should it, given the U.S. Constitution? Does the U.S. risk becoming a one party state? Or a religious dictatorship? Here's my view-- http://writingtrue.blogspot.com/2007/05/clery-in-goat-line.html What's yours? Thanks, Tim

Sinergy -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:02:03 PM)
Excellent link. Sinergy

hisannabelle -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:09:26 PM)
greetings musicmystery, the simple fact is that the catholic church is in many ways a political entity. as perhaps the most organized major religious denomination, the catholic church has much more of an ability to say things like that than, say, one buddhist teacher writing in one part of the world might. the simple fact is, the catholic church has a specific leader and a specific body of beliefs. this lends itself more to the kind of political moves you write about in your blog. overall, i do not believe that in the united states (or in most developed countries), religion should play a role in government. i hope that this election will lose some of the religious overtones that have characterized the past two elections; i hope that the anti-islamic patriotic christian frenzy that ensued after 9/11 will die down somewhat. it's kind of stifling for the rest of us (the, uh, non-christian minority). whatever happened to protecting the rights of the minority? isn't there something about that in the constitution, after all? only a few weeks ago did pagans in the military finally get the right to have a pentagram on their grave markers, after a long and bitter fight. i also hope that one day people will realize that it is possible to teach religion in public schools without a) pushing/promoting christianity, or any other religion, as the one right true and only way and b) "tempting" the impressionable little children away from it. one of my biggest religion/government bitches is that the only place i have ever found any understanding for the separation between theology and religious studies is within the confines of a university. sorry, the whole "god in schools" debate is one of my biggest problems with the way government has handled religion. anyway, i definitely agree with your blog, particularly the points you made about being pro-choice. annabelle.

minnetar -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:11:55 PM)
That was extremely well written. minnetar

minnetar -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:13:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle greetings musicmystery, the simple fact is that the catholic church is in many ways a political entity. as perhaps the most organized major religious denomination, the catholic church has much more of an ability to say things like that than, say, one buddhist teacher writing in one part of the world might. the simple fact is, the catholic church has a specific leader and a specific body of beliefs. this lends itself more to the kind of political moves you write about in your blog. overall, i do not believe that in the united states (or in most developed countries), religion should play a role in government. i hope that this election will lose some of the religious overtones that have characterized the past two elections; i hope that the anti-islamic patriotic christian frenzy that ensued after 9/11 will die down somewhat. it's kind of stifling for the rest of us (the, uh, non-christian minority). whatever happened to protecting the rights of the minority? isn't there something about that in the constitution, after all? only a few weeks ago did pagans in the military finally get the right to have a pentagram on their grave markers, after a long and bitter fight. i also hope that one day people will realize that it is possible to teach religion in public schools without a) pushing/promoting christianity, or any other religion, as the one right true and only way and b) "tempting" the impressionable little children away from it. one of my biggest religion/government bitches is that the only place i have ever found any understanding for the separation between theology and religious studies is within the confines of a university. sorry, the whole "god in schools" debate is one of my biggest problems with the way government has handled religion. anyway, i definitely agree with your blog, particularly the points you made about being pro-choice. annabelle. Annabelle, how could religion be taught in school when there are children who are agnostics or atheists? Is that fair to them? minnetar

Sinergy -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:19:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: minnetar how could religion be taught in school when there are children who are agnostics or atheists? Is that fair to them? minnetar Not to mention Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu, Sikh, Pagans, Shintoists, etc. I like to horrify people who promote this twaddle with the question "How would you feel if your child was forced to study the Kabbalah (Koran, I Ching, Vedas, etc.) in school?" Their look of outrage as they stridently object to their child being taught anything but their own particular flavor of Christianity is amusing as hell. What is depressing is almost none of them see the irony in their position. Sinergy

hisannabelle -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:24:43 PM)
greetings minnetar and sinergy, the same way it is taught in universities; from a scholarly standpoint, rather than a theological one. actually, in most world history classes, religious history IS taught; it's simply taught by people who are untrained in it (in my world history class in high school, i taught the sections on hinduism, buddhism, and islam because the teacher didn't know anything about anything but christianity). the majority of the universities in the united states have a religious studies program, and most of these programs offer an introductory, freshman-level world religions class as an option for the liberal studies curriculum for all students (for humanities credit). i think that a lot of high school students would benefit from having similar classes offered in high school. it might get some of them to think outside of their boxes. hell, it might help to dispel the myths about religious education at university, as well (i don't know how many people assume i'm going to be a minister when i tell them i'm a religion major...until i point out the fact that i study buddhism and asian languages). as long as it's offered as an elective, just like drafting, cooking, psychology, extra history classes, dance, etc. are all electives in high school i don't see how it could possibly offend atheists or agnostics. (incidentally, most of my fellow religion majors, religion grad students, and a lot of our professors are atheist or agnostic. the idea that you must be religious to study religion is preposterous.) annabelle.

DomKen -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:30:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle as long as it's offered as an elective, just like drafting, cooking, psychology, extra history classes, dance, etc. are all electives in high school i don't see how it could possibly offend atheists or agnostics. (incidentally, most of my fellow religion majors, religion grad students, and a lot of our professors are atheist or agnostic. the idea that you must be religious to study religion is preposterous.) annabelle. Inevitably some school districts would pervert this into a mandatory "elective" taught by their chosen teachers teaching their chosen brand of christianity. Then anyone who doesn't take the elective gets branded as an outsider and anyone who complains gets mistreated in the ways the children involved in ending this sort of stuff the first time got mistreated. No thanks!

minnetar -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:30:21 PM)
Annabelle, Making it an elective in college is different than making it an elective in high school. High School is mandated for students whereas college isn't. Goes back to the separation of state and religion. i don't feel it would be right for religion to be an elective. What religion should be taught? minnetar

hisannabelle -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:32:53 PM)
greetings minnetar, i believe all major religions should be taught, just as they are in survey classes in college. how is it different than making it an elective in high school? high school is mandated, but not all people are forced to take drafting, which is a high school elective. in high school, you can actually gasp choose your electives. that's why they're electives. no one forced anyone at my high school to take dance...it was an elective. should we not have offered it because there were conservative students who might have been offended at the idea of dancing? should we not offer ap psychology as an elective because someone might believe that modern psychology is wrong or evil? personally i think it's a much better system than letting history teachers teach religion when they know nothing about it, which is what is going on now, in world history classes. just my humble opinion. annabelle.

Sinergy -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:34:43 PM)
I took a lot of courses on religion in College. What is being proposed is teaching Christianity to grade school kids. I can get you a few articles and book references if you are interested, but basically the Religious Right have targetted local elections of school boards to get their views presented to children. I am fairly dubious that a (fundamentalist whatever) who is also a schoolteacher going to explain the Sikh (or whatever) religion to 2nd graders? Sinergy

minnetar -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:35:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle greetings minnetar, i believe all major religions should be taught, just as they are in survey classes in college. how is it different than making it an elective in high school? high school is mandated, but not all people are forced to take drafting, which is a high school elective. in high school, you can actually gasp choose your electives. that's why they're electives. no one forced anyone at my high school to take dance...it was an elective. should we not have offered it because there were conservative students who might have been offended as the idea of dancing? personally i think it's a much better system than letting history teachers teach religion when they know nothing about it, which is what is going on now, in world history classes. just my humble opinion. annabelle. Annabelle thanks for the sarcasm as my speech wasn't intended in that way at all. Just tells me where you are about answers to your posts. mminnetar

hisannabelle -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:37:52 PM)
greetings sinergy, i'm not talking about teaching it to second graders, i'm talking about teaching it to high schoolers, or -maybe- middle schoolers. we don't teach the finer points of history, math, or science to second graders; why then should we teach religion, which is also a complicated subject, to second graders? then again, i went to a catholic elementary and middle school and i took religion from a theological standpoint in second grade. however, i still think it requires a much more developed ability for reasoning to teach religion from a scholarly standpoint...which is why i advocate teaching it in high schools (that and electives are something you usually only find in middle and high schools). annabelle.

hisannabelle -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:39:31 PM)
greetings minnetar, my post was not meant to be sarcastic. i simply don't understand what you're saying, so i'm drawing analogies that seem similar to what you are putting forth to me. if you would like to clarify how teaching religion as an elective is somehow offensive to people who don't want to learn about it, i'm all for it. i still see that as being similar to having a hospital class (which is now offered at the high school i attended) as an elective being wrong because it might offend children of christian scientists who do not believe in modern medicine and are not forced to choose that class. annabelle.

Sinergy -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:45:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle greetings sinergy, i'm not talking about teaching it to second graders, i'm talking about teaching it to high schoolers, or -maybe- middle schoolers. we don't teach the finer points of history, math, or science to second graders; why then should we teach religion, which is also a complicated subject, to second graders? then again, i went to a catholic elementary and middle school and i took religion from a theological standpoint in second grade. however, i still think it requires a much more developed ability for reasoning to teach religion from a scholarly standpoint...which is why i advocate teaching it in high schools (that and electives are something you usually only find in middle and high schools). annabelle. Hello hisannabelle, I have two issues about this. I am extremely dubious that a person with a definite set of religious beliefs can really provide a broad overview of a subject. If this was the case where a person got an advanced degree on Comparative Religion, and went and got a job as a Professor of Religion teaching to adults, I imagine it would work. Everybody in the room is aware of the person's precepts at that grade level. As a former student working on a teaching credential, I am fairly dubious about discussing this issue at all with anybody younger than about 11th grade. It is an emotionally charged subject being presented to a minor child. Alarm bells go off in my head thinking about how hard-core parents are about what is presented to their child. There are few good outcomes for public schoolteachers. Sinergy

minnetar -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:46:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle greetings minnetar, my post was not meant to be sarcastic. i simply don't understand what you're saying, so i'm drawing analogies that seem similar to what you are putting forth to me. if you would like to clarify how teaching religion as an elective is somehow offensive to people who don't want to learn about it, i'm all for it. i still see that as being similar to having a hospital class (which is now offered at the high school i attended) as an elective being wrong because it might offend children of christian scientists who do not believe in modern medicine and are not forced to choose that class. annabelle. i do not believe that religion should be taught in publicly supported high schools. i believe that is against religion and state. i do not want my tax money going towards that type of education when that should be taught by the parents. minnetar

hisannabelle -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:49:40 PM)
greetings sinergy, i agree. i'm mainly advocating this as an alternative to allowing someone who is not educated in religious studies teach religion as a part of another class - i keep going back to world history, but that is the best example i have. in our class, the teacher only knew about christianity and was completely unprepared to answer the class's questions on other religions when we covered their histories; as a result, she managed to slant the whole class towards christianity and in the process reinforce damaging stereotypes of other religions. from what i know of the other high schools here, the situation is very similar. may have something to do with being on the fringes of the bible belt, but hell, that's a BIG part of the country and that's a LOT of miseducated students. basically, i think that having religion taught by someone who is capable of teaching it from a scholarly perspective would solve a lot of the problems you have when having people who have degrees in completely different areas coming upon it in their own curriculum. greetings musicmystery, i am sorry for the diversion from the main thread topic...it was not my intention. annabelle.

Musicmystery -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:55:15 PM)
minnetar, Synergy -- Thank you. Spread the word! Tim

Musicmystery -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 8:58:04 PM)
annabelle, Not a problem at all. My purpose was to raise the issue. From there, my style is to back off and let others speak. Thanks, Tim

FatDomDaddy -> RE: Religion and Politics (5/1/2007 9:00:07 PM)
There will be a TON of Catholic bashing against Rudi and even more Morman bashing against Mitt Romney. The press will do whatever it can to hide Obama's Islamic past And if Leiberman get in.... look for the Anti- Jewish sentiment to rear its ulgy head.

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