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RE: NASA confirms global warming on Mars - 4/30/2007 3:24:15 PM   
domiguy


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we are talking about 0.6 degrees C (close enough) .....http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/environment/2006_warm.html

The hole in the ozone has never been larger....co2 measurements in the atmosphere have never been higher ( in the last fifty years)....Are you saying there is no possibility that we are in some how to blame?

of course there is no way possible to determine what is the exact cause of the increase in temp....And second off  with all of the third world countries including our own burning a huge amount of fossil fuels...Even if it was determined we are at the root of the problem what exactly could be done?

My argument with your approach is that you seem to so badly want to find any explanation for the increase of temp...Whether it is Mars or the position of the Sun...that will condemn the responbility of global warming from falling at our own feet....I don't think you hate the message nearly as much as you dislike the messenger.



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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: NASA confirms global warming on Mars - 4/30/2007 3:55:44 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
Interjecting a little humor here ...

Republicans Cause Global Warming on Mars

An alarming discovery by NASA has Green Party members, The Sierra Club, Al Gore, The United Nations, and tree-hugging hippies all over earth in a panic. Global warming is occurring on Mars! NASA has reported that Mars is coming out of an ice age and experiencing significant climate changes. Some how, some way, the ruthless Republicans have found a way to get their message of support for oil companies and gas guzzling SUV's all the way to Mars. How else can anyone explain global warming on Mars?

Concerned environmentalists everywhere expressed dismay that they were asleep at the wheel for this one. Not content to destroy just the earth, the Republicans must have devised a way to push their destruction all the way to Mars. Theories have begun to surface that Rush Limbaugh's radio show is being broadcast through a Republican-owned satellite directed at Mars. Others theorize that this is a Bush payoff to his oil buddies for winning the election, or that this plot might somehow be a hidden clause somewhere deep in the pages of that dreaded Patriot Act.

Response from the environmental movement was swift and decisive. ... Al Gore ... stated ... "The Bush administration will not get away with causing global warming on yet another planet. Being the laughingstock of the Democratic Party now, I might be forced to live on Mars some day. And I'll be damned if I'm going to allow global warming to happen in a place that could be the future home for me and my family."

...

Sensing another opportunity to try and make a difference, Hollywood heavies like Martin Sheen, Danny Glover, and Sean Penn have begun organizing a protest march and civil disobedience rallies to be held on the streets of Mars until global warming is stopped dead in its tracks. Martin Sheen issued a press release in which he said "how many innocent Martian babies need to die because of the senseless greed of the Bush administration and his oil buddies?" He continued by saying "we know this is all part of Bush's plot to kill children and destroy the land and water on every planet within his reach." Sheen hopped into his limo to a waiting private jet to take him back to one of his multiple multi-thousand-square-foot homes with full heating and air conditioning and could not be reached for further comment. Since the Hollywood activists don't want to use environmentally destructive rocket fuel to reach their destination, they have formed a committee to either design a bicycle that can be ridden to Mars or to invent a rocket fuel made from hemp.

...

Meanwhile, deep in the boardrooms of SUV manufacturers, executives began counting the endless billions they are making from secret sales to Mars. And oil company executives can only smile as they have found a market for their product on a planet with no environmental laws or EPA restrictions.




FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: NASA confirms global warming on Mars - 4/30/2007 4:10:43 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

What's unbelievable is how so many global-warming alarmists are climbing all over themselves trying to create new theories to try to explain this away.

"It CAN'T have anything to do with the reason that the Earth is warming up - it just CAN'T!!!"




LOL, those "global Warming Moonbats are going to be *PISSED!*
And what about the "U.N."? "Shit!!! ALL THAT FUCKIN MONEY WE WERE GOING TO SWINDLE OUT OF U.S. TAXPAYERS!!!!"
"GONE!!!  IT'S ALL GONE!
"We're going to have to hit up Kojo Anan for a loan now and you know how he can be!" "SHIT! He'll want 3 points a week on the Vig!"
Who would have thunk it,* MARS is warming up at the same rate as EARTH!*
Well, well, well!
I knew that somehow it had something to do with increased solar activity but there's no way the global socialists can make money from that, is there?

LMAO! And what about ***KYOTO***?
LOLOL, SUCKERSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/30/2007 4:21:02 PM >

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: NASA confirms global warming on Mars - 4/30/2007 4:20:24 PM   
cyberdude611


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Joined: 5/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

we are talking about 0.6 degrees C (close enough) .....http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/environment/2006_warm.html

The hole in the ozone has never been larger....co2 measurements in the atmosphere have never been higher ( in the last fifty years)....Are you saying there is no possibility that we are in some how to blame?

of course there is no way possible to determine what is the exact cause of the increase in temp....And second off  with all of the third world countries including our own burning a huge amount of fossil fuels...Even if it was determined we are at the root of the problem what exactly could be done?

My argument with your approach is that you seem to so badly want to find any explanation for the increase of temp...Whether it is Mars or the position of the Sun...that will condemn the responbility of global warming from falling at our own feet....I don't think you hate the message nearly as much as you dislike the messenger.




My issue is that some believe that global warming has been proven to be caused only by humans. And that we need to make dramatic changes or else the world is going to be flooded in 50 years. And then the people that claim this also claim that all scientists are in agreement on this.

Not all scientists are in agreement on global warming. Not even close. And I highly disagree with the smear campaign by the left wing and environmentalists that attack every scientist that questions the THEORY of global warming.

What in the world makes people think that the earth's temperature is supposed to be constant? I mean we are debating about half a degree increase. Are you saying that there has not ever been a temperature change of 0.6 degrees in the history of this planet?

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: NASA confirms global warming on Mars - 4/30/2007 4:22:31 PM   
SuzanneKneeling


Posts: 233
Joined: 8/31/2005
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Oh my. Tiresome, to see this regular entry in the Head-in-sand Global Warming Denial Association's rotation making another appearance.

cyberdude,

Please do a wiki search on the concept of albedo. The dynamics of the Martian sytem are entirely divergent from the one we have here. For one thing, while I'm not an expert on Mars in particular, from the thinner atmosphere I suspect that reflectivity effects would dominate any kind of equation modelling the global temperature of Mars (whereas atmospheric insulatory changes - most of which have been due to manmade emissions lately - do so here). Unless you are Rush Limbaugh and are only concerned with listenership and not reality, you cannot really extend this study to the terrestrial situation.

FirmhandKY,

"this is clearly george bush's fault"

Not entirely, though under the "stewardship" of an oil industry cartel thinly disguised as a presidency, we have lost precious time in addressing a problem which cannot be turned around overnight (now that we've seemingly woken up to this as a country). However there is plenty of blame to go around, as the entire US congress dropped the ball by voting down the Kyoto Treaty without offering an alternative back in the 90's.

Oh. And the commenter you quoted is using one of the common strawman stall tactics characterisitic of irresponsible Americans who are trying to dodge this issue even now. They falsely paint it as black and white - either move to a grass hut or just ignore the problem - in order to feed themselves more excuses not to grow up and take responsibility for their actions. The reality is that facing this problem mostly involves educating yourself, making surprisingly painless changes in your lifestyle, and watching green industries flourish around the solutions to this problem. In the end the only losers will be the dead dinosaur industries which we are inexplicably still subsidizing to the tune of billions of dollars.

Sanity (sic),

As distasteful as it evidently is to you, forming theories and then collecting data to disprove or support them is a routine part of science.

domiguy,

"I have no idea whether our presence is influencing climate changes or not..."

You may not, but the IPCC (International Panel on Climate Change), comprised of the world's foremost experts in fields relating to climatology, is "90 percent certain" (a fairly tall order to match in science btw) that the short term changes we are seeing are anthropogenic (human-created).

As a side note, I have to say that while it is great that people take enough of an interest to have an opinion on scientific issues, the act of having an opinion is only as useful as that opinion is informed. The reality of manmade climate change is not subject to public opinion polls (whether that public is in 100% awareness or 0%, I mean). The opinions that carry the most weight (or should) are those of the scientists who are intimately acquainted with the entire body of research. (See above paragraph.)

domiguy,

"Again I will state it is difficult if not impossible to positively pinpoint our pollutants as the cause of the warming trend seen..."

Yes, science is generally difficult. That's why people go to school for many years, are put through a ringer before practicing it, and have to buy very expensive instruments to carry it out. When they publish results (after a thorough adversarial review by peers who are licking their chops to look smarter than the author), maybe these results should inform your opinion a little bit more than those of political commentators or industry lobbyists who have neither the education, experience, equipment nor data to back up their statements. For too long the media fell into a kneejerk practice of giving "equal time" to people on energy company payrolls whenever a legitimate scientist published another damning study. If they had thought about what they were doing, we might have been facing this problem a decade ago.

In specific response to your pondering, the key smoking gun in all of this has been correlating atmospheric CO2 with temperature over time. It is difficult, if you try to do it in your head -- though the visual correspondence on a plot is breathtaking before even looking at the numbers. But as good fortune would have it, we possess computers that can covary out nuisance factors in the model - such as solar radiation and everything else some brilliant poster here is going to "discover" which miraculously climatologists have never considered - then crank out the product-moment pairs and sum them up. Computers are wonderful things.


I'm sorry if any of the above comments came out snippy, I'm trying not to pick on people harshly. But this concensus has been in place for a decade now and it exasperates and disgusts me to still see the effects of Exxon's $8 million climate change disinformation campaign still presenting itself in public.

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: NASA confirms global warming on Mars - 4/30/2007 4:23:43 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

we are talking about 0.6 degrees C (close enough) .....http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/environment/2006_warm.html

The hole in the ozone has never been larger....co2 measurements in the atmosphere have never been higher ( in the last fifty years)....Are you saying there is no possibility that we are in some how to blame?

of course there is no way possible to determine what is the exact cause of the increase in temp....And second off  with all of the third world countries including our own burning a huge amount of fossil fuels...Even if it was determined we are at the root of the problem what exactly could be done?

My argument with your approach is that you seem to so badly want to find any explanation for the increase of temp...Whether it is Mars or the position of the Sun...that will condemn the responbility of global warming from falling at our own feet....I don't think you hate the message nearly as much as you dislike the messenger.




My issue is that some believe that global warming has been proven to be caused only by humans. And that we need to make dramatic changes or else the world is going to be flooded in 50 years. And then the people that claim this also claim that all scientists are in agreement on this.

Not all scientists are in agreement on global warming. Not even close. And I highly disagree with the smear campaign by the left wing and environmentalists that attack every scientist that questions the THEORY of global warming.

What in the world makes people think that the earth's temperature is supposed to be constant? I mean we are debating about half a degree increase. Are you saying that there has not ever been a temperature change of 0.6 degrees in the history of this planet?


That's "The Church of Global Warming."
"There is only one true cause!"
Remind you of any other "religion?"

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: NASA confirms global warming on Mars - 4/30/2007 4:44:17 PM   
SuzanneKneeling


Posts: 233
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

The hole in the ozone has never been larger....co2 measurements in the atmosphere have never been higher ( in the last fifty years)....Are you saying there is no possibility that we are in some how to blame?


BTW, Domiguy, I'm not sure if you're presenting those two as related, but they're not. Another - hilariously ironic - pet peeve of mine is listening to the anti-science crowd maligning Al Gore as "Ozone Man" in some childish attempt to dispute climate change research. They are jumping up and down waving a banner that basically says, "I'm uninformed, but it's not going to stop me from making fun of people who are trying to solve the problem!".

The ozone hole was depleted by lots of things we were doing, but mainly CFC use. Fortunately, in the early 90s this country actually listened to scientists (note that the industries that rely crucially on CFCs do not own nearly as much of Capitol Hill) and environmentalists on that issue. As a result we instituted the proper legislative changes - banned CFCs as a propellant in sprays etc. - and now the hole is starting to get smaller. I think I read where the current data estimate that it will close completely by 2050 (don't quote me on that).

Global climate change is an almost entirely separate problem. The only tangential link there is that ozone is a weak greenhouse gas. So strictly speaking, the ozone hole might actually be helping in some small way (speaking off the cuff, I don't know how the modelling works out in reality) slow down warming. But allowing everyone in the southern hemisphere to go blind and develop cancer is probably not an acceptable course in combatting GW.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: NASA confirms global warming on Mars - 4/30/2007 5:14:20 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
Suzanne,

Welcome to the forums.  Or at least to the posting part, as I looked, and saw that you've been on CM for a while. 

Just a friendly hint ... there's a lot of history on both sides of the global warming issue here in the forums.  Don't assume you know everyone's total point by just one thread.  A lot of the blow-by-blow that you are seeing is rich in nuances that we have with each other in other threads as well.

A big part of the distaste that some of us have for "global warming" isn't necessarily "the facts", but the way that "the facts" have been politicized with an agenda.  Also, you might learn that some off us are both politically, and scientifically literate, and will easily debate the scientific process with you (and each other), and how it can be corrupted by politics and "junk science".

I think the biggest problem with "global warming" is it utter certainty that it is protrayed by it's proponents.  If they were less belligerent, and more focused on the facts rather than propaganda and hyperbole, the more likely I would to take their science seriously.

As it is, I'll concede two points:

1.  Conditionally, I accept that the average world surface temperature has risen slightly over the last century.

2.  Conditionally, I accept that man has introduced additional CO2 into the atmosphere.

Anything else, I think is more than open to debate - and I will.

Another important point in this debate is what - exactly - someone means when they start arguing on the subject, is the operative definition that they use for "global warming".  It seems that the popular opinion, and the scientific one is somewhat different, and getting into a discussion where you do not have an agreement of terms can lead to a lot of wasted time and energy.

So ... again, welcome.  And don't take too much offense at what is about to come your way. 

FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: NASA confirms global warming on Mars - 4/30/2007 5:31:23 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzanneKneeling

quote:

The hole in the ozone has never been larger....co2 measurements in the atmosphere have never been higher ( in the last fifty years)....Are you saying there is no possibility that we are in some how to blame?


BTW, Domiguy, I'm not sure if you're presenting those two as related, but they're not. Another - hilariously ironic - pet peeve of mine is listening to the anti-science crowd maligning Al Gore as "Ozone Man" in some childish attempt to dispute climate change research. They are jumping up and down waving a banner that basically says, "I'm uninformed, but it's not going to stop me from making fun of people who are trying to solve the problem!".

The ozone hole was depleted by lots of things we were doing, but mainly CFC use. Fortunately, in the early 90s this country actually listened to scientists (note that the industries that rely crucially on CFCs do not own nearly as much of Capitol Hill) and environmentalists on that issue. As a result we instituted the proper legislative changes - banned CFCs as a propellant in sprays etc. - and now the hole is starting to get smaller. I think I read where the current data estimate that it will close completely by 2050 (don't quote me on that).

Global climate change is an almost entirely separate problem. The only tangential link there is that ozone is a weak greenhouse gas. So strictly speaking, the ozone hole might actually be helping in some small way (speaking off the cuff, I don't know how the modelling works out in reality) slow down warming. But allowing everyone in the southern hemisphere to go blind and develop cancer is probably not an acceptable course in combatting GW.


The two are unrelated...I was using the one as an example of how we obviously have the ability to have a direct affect on the planet.

In the link provided up above NASA does report that there is for the first time in 2007 that the ozone layer might  be recovering a bit, after reporting several months earlier that the 'hole" had never been larger.

I am for the most part in your "camp."  However, I recently saw a program where they dug core samples from the La. basin?? and found in the past several thousand years some extreme hurricane activity that predates "us."

So when debating such topics with the folks on this thread I try to use small words whenever possible....And try not to throw too much at them at once...Because they are an extremely slow group who tend to bruise very easily....lol.

Actually Firm summed it up pretty well, strap up your boots, don't let your feathers get too ruffled when posting.....In time you will get to learn where people stand on most issues and on the whole I think most the folks out here are pretty darn nice. We don't all share a common view...Thank God!!!...And at times things can get a little heated....Enjoy yourself.


_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: NASA confirms global warming on Mars - 4/30/2007 5:46:34 PM   
SuzanneKneeling


Posts: 233
Joined: 8/31/2005
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quote:

What in the world makes people think that the earth's temperature is supposed to be constant? I mean we are debating about half a degree increase. Are you saying that there has not ever been a temperature change of 0.6 degrees in the history of this planet?


Since you sound sincere in your question, I'll bite (there are plenty of denial trolls on the web who know full well what the scientific community thinks, but because of an agenda relating to anything from an unnatural attachment to their Suburban to a heavy investment in Chevron, love to float these red herrings to keep confusion alive and delay action).

In the beginning...

The earth has gone through massive, drastic changes in temperature over its history. There was a time when it was a molten mess for heaven's sake. Throughout most of human history, we wouldn't have had a prayer of living here. But then this dynamic system - through happenstance or some supernatural creator, depending on your need to believe in that - entered into a relatively long term equilibrium within a temperature range that was conducive to all the biological processes that make life as we know it possible. On top of that, there have been many temperature fluctuations of moderate length owing to natural processes (ice ages, etc.). There are also a few relatively short term natural cycles due to things like solar radiation cycles, our orbit around the sun and even the precession (wobble) around our rotational axis. In addition, through history there have been a number of random "shocks" to this equilibrium system, like asteroid strikes, volcanic eruptions, etc. All of the above have contributed to temperature changes. But aside from the cyclic ones - which are easy to model almost perfectly (e.g. we have a pretty good handle on our trip through space relative to the sun) and the random events (harder obviously to model), most of these changes have been extremely slow, long term phenomena.

What scientists are talking about when (most of them) address climate change is the extremely rapid (compared to geologic time scales) spike in both CO2 (highest it has ever been) and temperature (5 of the hottest 10 years on record happening in the last 8). The alarming thing is not so much that 1 degree F change that's occurred - see note below - but the high degree of certainty we now have in the model that connects GH gas concentrations and temperature (after modelling OUT all of the effects noted above due to natural processes). Given that, and knowing where GHG rates are going if we don't change our actions, we have a pretty good idea where temperatures would be in a few decades (and it's not pretty).

But even that 1 degree change that's happened is underappreciated by many people - and I don't blame them, as it doesn't sound like much on its face. But it isn't just a 1 degree change uniformly over the earth. It seems to be concentrated mostly at the poles and in tropical regions so far. The former is because of the nonlinear (think runaway, or "snowballing") interaction between ground reflectivity and warming. Basically as the atmosphere warms a little, it melts a little ice. Then where you used to have white (good reflector) you now have dark water (good absorber). So the area starts absorbing energy faster, which speeds up the rate of melting, which in turn lowers the reflectivity in the area, which in turn, you get the point I hope.

But why care? Well, there are lots of reasons to be concerned with warming at the poles beyond just caring about those cute polar bears (which really are threatened now, and even the administration is now acknowledging it). One is that if we melt landed ice sheets at the south pole enough that they collapse into the ocean, they really do raise the ocean level. Rush Limbaugh likes to mislead his poor abused flock with his floating ice cube fallacy (ie, melt an ice cube in the water and it doesn't raise the water level because the water is denser than ice), but he never mentions that scientists are more concerned with the landed ice shelves.

The other main concern is that as ice melts near the north pole, the fresh water freed up then pours into the northern ocean and decreases the salinity (saltiness) of the water. It's a little complicated to explain quickly, but ocean salinity is responsible for the existence of something called the Global Conveyor Belt (of which the Gulf Stream is part). [Basically salt water and fresh water have different densities, and that gradient causes vertical movements in the water and creates a return loop back to the Indian Ocean for water that is coming in on the surface from there.] This Conveyor Belt (which brings warm water up from down south) is what makes Europe inhabitable (if you look at a map you may be amazed to see that even balmy southern Europe is at the lattitude of what we consider chilly Canada). If the northern oceans lose enough of their salinity, this conveyor belt can (and has in the past, this is well documented) shut down. If it does, we get the scenario depicted in the Day After Tomorrow - though it won't happen nearly that sudden (more like a ten year span, which would still cause somewhat apocolyptic upheaval but wouldn't have made for as exciting a movie). Now, I realize some conservatives are still sore at France for being smarter than we were about Iraq, but consider the role that industrialized Europe has in the world economy and you'll want to stick with simply pouring your wine in the sewer rather than wishing this scenario upon us all.

The mechanisms for the tropics warming disproportionately escape me at the moment, but it's definitely happening in concert with all of this. What makes a small temperature change there important (beyond exacerbating drought conditions that are a major root cause of much of the civil strife you hear about) is that even a small one means a large amount of new energy in the ocean. The connection between tropical warming and increased hurricane severity is not quite as solid as the general one between GHG and warming, but it is leaning strongly that way already (caveat being the recent study finding that increased wind sheer due to warming may actually destory nascent storms and effectively cancel out the engine revving effect - though this is the first study I've seen on that so its still in the "grain of salt" file).

I haven't even gotten into the other part of the equation. Whereever you pick along the future projected temperature increase curve, the increased mean earth temperature bears another nasty traveller on its back. The variance of the temperature will also increase. What this means is not only wilder swings in weather (heat waves AND odd freezing spells like possibly the one that caused the California fruit crisis a few months ago), but other unpredictable events owing to the chaos of the system. Without getting into nonlinear dynamics and chaos theory, suffice it to say that "it's not wise to fool with Mother Nature". Not when she spent millions of years getting things precisely squared in this delicate space in time in which we've been evolving. Just not a good idea. I hear people saying "hey maybe warm will be better" and I just think, "if you had any idea what you are saying..."

Sorry for the book. I hope it's of some help.

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: NASA confirms global warming on Mars - 4/30/2007 6:16:53 PM   
SuzanneKneeling


Posts: 233
Joined: 8/31/2005
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Firmhand, thanks for the welcome. And you're right about the assumptions - I think already I may have slightly misconstrued the nuances of domiguy's expressions on this (sorry, if it's needed).

I realize science can get caught in the middle of the sandstorm that is today's political climate. In fact I could write pages on how this administration has politicized science, usually by simply squelching it when it doesn't like what it finds (this is a finely honed tool of theirs called "kill the messenger"). Ask some of the scientists at the EPA who have had their work stripped from the website because it's discomforting politically to the oil carte-- er, administration that's in power. Or some of the researchers at the National Institutes of Health who've had their studies relating to sexual behaviors silenced because they found the wrong thing.

But I'm curious about one thing. Exactly what part of the "politicization" of the climate change issue coming from the science/liberal crowd bothers you? Presumably, whether it's medicine or something else, we study things in order to guide our public (and private) policy. When the climatology community is in virtual consensus (and you are always going to have a handful of contrarian people, for a variety of reasons, few of which are related to the science) on the fact that we are basically destroying our habitat in very short order, should political agents for change just stay out of the picture? What purpose is there in knowing things if you don't then act responsibly on them?

> 1. Conditionally, I accept that the average world surface temperature has risen slightly over the last century.

> 2. Conditionally, I accept that man has introduced additional CO2 into the atmosphere.

Well, it's charming that you are conditionally accepting two things that were not only well established by the early 90s, but not even in debate then. Welcome to 1994. When you actually say something controversial, maybe we can have a little debate about it. :) (unfortunately at the moment I have to get going, but I'll try to check back tomorrow)

> It seems that the popular opinion, and the scientific one is somewhat different, and getting into a discussion where you do not have an agreement of terms can lead to a lot of wasted time and energy.

I agree that there is a huge amount of misinformation out there. That's why I'm posting.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: NASA confirms global warming on Mars - 4/30/2007 6:20:40 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

we are talking about 0.6 degrees C (close enough) .....http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/environment/2006_warm.html

The hole in the ozone has never been larger....co2 measurements in the atmosphere have never been higher ( in the last fifty years)....Are you saying there is no possibility that we are in some how to blame?

of course there is no way possible to determine what is the exact cause of the increase in temp....And second off  with all of the third world countries including our own burning a huge amount of fossil fuels...Even if it was determined we are at the root of the problem what exactly could be done?

My argument with your approach is that you seem to so badly want to find any explanation for the increase of temp...Whether it is Mars or the position of the Sun...that will condemn the responbility of global warming from falling at our own feet....I don't think you hate the message nearly as much as you dislike the messenger.




My issue is that some believe that global warming has been proven to be caused only by humans. And that we need to make dramatic changes or else the world is going to be flooded in 50 years. And then the people that claim this also claim that all scientists are in agreement on this.

Not all scientists are in agreement on global warming. Not even close. And I highly disagree with the smear campaign by the left wing and environmentalists that attack every scientist that questions the THEORY of global warming.

What in the world makes people think that the earth's temperature is supposed to be constant? I mean we are debating about half a degree increase. Are you saying that there has not ever been a temperature change of 0.6 degrees in the history of this planet?


Well, since you asked.

Through the use of core samples, it is actually possible to see what is causing the increase in greenhouse gases, etc.

For example, I dont have the dates offhand, but there was a volcanic explosion (circa 1800s if I remember right) which caused "The Year Without A Summer" and massive starvation over most of Europe and the Middle East, and what is called something like "the Little Ice Age."

The problem is that we know:

a) Carbon Dioxide is at high levels and increasing over time.  The carbon dioxide is a specific isotope of carbon that results from the burning of fossil fuels.  Please clarify what else on this planet burns fossil fuels apart from humans.

b) The ice caps are losing 36 cubic miles / year for the past 11 years.  26 cubic miles worth of ice results in (If I remember right) a 1 inch (might be a foot, been a few weeks since I read about this) increase in sea levels.

c)  A majority of the past 15 years or so have been hottest years on record.

I could go on.

The 0.6 degree increase is an average over the time interval.  The problem is that there is no sign of the trend (increased temperatures going down) and there are all sorts of things (like vast ice swamps filled with things that never rotted away) which will pump ever more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.  Go look up "carbon feedback loop" if you are unfamiliar with the concept.

Taking all this together, an example would be staring at the car with a deer in the headlights look and hope it doesnt hit us, or we can take action today to put off or avert a potential threat.  Reminds me of the gun threads where people are talking about being prepared for an assault.  Think of global warming as being a threat; what are we going to do today to deal with it?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

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(in reply to cyberdude611)
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