Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: The Chinese in Africa


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: The Chinese in Africa Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/21/2007 5:46:29 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Nice try, but I've been talking about the Chinese army in the Sudan for years now, so you can save your strawman tactics for someone else.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/21/2007 5:50:02 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Cant be bothered to look up the exact dates but Leopold to Brussels change occurred around 1915 I think. So my post 9 holds n'est ce-pas ?
Then independance in the 50s/60s

Then "bang "disintegration into violence and civil war. nicht Wahr ?

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/21/2007 7:48:16 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
LadyE: you should go out on Friday night. Even misanthropic old me manages to do that !!!
ps It is Friday isn't it, I lose track these days.


Thanks for your thoughtful advice on my social life Seeks. I prefer to stay in on a Friday night though, as my kids are here usually and with all the trouble in town these days its not a good idea to be out in it, unless one is one of those causing the trouble of course.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/21/2007 8:13:28 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The Chinese are taking a shit on Africa, so you all chime in at the same time to talk smack about the West... how funny, and how predictable, and how sad - all at the same time



There's room for you to explain why it doesn't smack of the West, if you have an argument that will stand up to scrutiny?


China's civilization predates Western civilization by thousands of years.  The country has gone through periods of being insular and being involved in things outside of her borders.  At the moment, the pendulum of Chinese interaction with the rest of the world involves things outside of her borders.  I make this point because the Chinese have never done anything that did not provide a direct or indirect benefit to China.

For example, China regularly invaded or set up trade relations with Vietnam (for example) at various times in her history.  People sometimes talk about how much the Vietnamese and the Chinese hate each other, which is true, in a sense, but I think the issue is deeper than that.  Vietnam and China are neighbors who sometimes engage in fence arguments.  China could (and has) easily conquer Vietnam, but China does not perceive conquering Vietnam as being in the best interests of China.  China's attitude has always been to surround itself with countries that would buffer it from external threats.  To take another example, China can shore up North Korea vs. South Korea because, in a true passive-aggressive stance, if war breaks out between these two they can fight until they are both destroyed with the help of others.  When the dust settles, China has not really been impacted by the battle that took place in somebody else's country.  This is done so that China can do what China wants to do.

At the moment, China stands poised to become the premier economic power on the planet.  They have enough people in their own country to do so.  They have a government willing to go to draconian lengths to dictate public policy.  An example of this is that the Chinese government can insist that everybody in China give up their cars and ride bicycles.  In order to become the premier economic power on the planet, China has taken actions such as importing other people's garbage so it can be broken down to raw materials to make Tupperware for Walmart (for example) as well as seeking out raw materials wherever they are.

In the Western world, Africa was basically abandoned at the end of the Age of Imperialism because the West perceived Africa as lacking anything worthwhile.  If the Congo was sitting on vast supplies of crude oil (we are at the end of the Age of Petroleum...) you can bet that the West would have our fingers in that pie.  The Chinese need raw materials, and enjoy a massive trade surplus and wealth, so they are doing what they are doing in Africa in order to acquire these things.  The significant difference between what they are doing and what the West did involves whether or not they used the military to accomplish their goals.  The West sent their armies in and installed colonial governments bouyed up by rifles.  China is sending in economic advisors and money to get what they need.

To bring this around to the topic of the thread.  China's actions in Africa are simply what the Chinese have always done; making things better for China.  To equate what they are doing with Western colonialism is not giving the Chinese credit for being here first.

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/21/2007 9:22:51 AM   
taleon


Posts: 48
Joined: 4/20/2007
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		I'm by no means educated in the field of African history, but isn't one of the main problems of the continent that the borders of its states were drawn mostly by European powers, motivated by European geo-political considerations. So, you end up with a combination of cultures and tribes who have no sense of national identity, and you expect them to develop into a flourishing nation in a relatively short period of time?

I'm not sure how the Chinese could sort that out, with just being motivated to extract resources to fuel an already overheating economy. It could be that some historical mistakes can only be undone by time, and then more time.


(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/21/2007 9:53:18 AM   
vield


Posts: 354
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Since the old western colonial powers have been long gone from most of Africa, the map is ever changing. African countries deal with each other, conquer each other, or get taken over by the new colonial powers. Cuba was quite active in this for awhile as was Russia. China has been involved more with trading weapons for resources than with troops, but now that there are some more power vacuums, troop involvement seems logical. Lots of religious and tribal controversies have been fought out in many parts of the continent, often with the massacre of the losing groups. The rape of the natural resources is certainly an ongoing thing, as it has been for at least 500 years or more.
The jihad or supposed holy wars of the last several hundred years involving Egypt, the Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia have destabilized this region for hundreds of years, terrorized and massacred the inhabitants and involved lots of foreign troops from many countries, without seeming to change much. It seems that whole regions of population become "heretics" or something of that nature by not following the whims of the latest leader, and in these regions this has often signalled genocide against the dissidents. This usually has been done in the name of religious belief or in the name of creating order, but any investigation shows the real motivation is persons seeking to take personal power. One corrupt bunch of murdering thieves and slavers gets ousted and wiped out by a bunch of murderous rapists and thieves. Try reading "Fire and Sword in the Sudan"by Slatin Pasha for a historical perspective.

_____________________________

As always, your mileage may vary!

vield

(in reply to taleon)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/21/2007 10:30:42 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		I seriously doubt the Chinese could order thier people to give up thier cars and go to bicycles.  That would cause a huge backlash among the 300,000,000 of them living in the Priveledged East.  The other 700,000,000 dirt poor, non Han nations that were annexxed and stripped of their wealth by China, are all in various stages of revolt already.  Sinergy is right about Vietnam and China's main motivations, though I think a little nuclear war in Korea would affect China.  China is a huge country, but it has lots of huge problems.   Regarding Africa, in some places China does appear to be helping the local people, of course to be honest, the west spends huge sums of money on aid to various projects in Africa, and has for decades.  Of course in Sudan we see China giving cover and funding to the Genocide, and there is OIL in Sudan, so they are not above chopping off heads to get what they want. 

While the west absolutly raped Africa(technically I mean sub Saharan Africa but I am not going to write it out everytime), the reason they were so weak goes deeper.  And will remain after the west is long and gone, unless there is a complete cultural replacement.  It is so easy to produce food in most of Africa, that complex societies were not forced to develop.  Civilizations developed in places where life was harder and required complex solutions.  Egypt is the perfect example, they had to have irrigation, science to know when to plant and open the canals, order to maintian the system, common language to operate the system, ect to grow food there.  And these kinds of societies overwhelm thier neighboors and get bigger/stronger.  Han China was the same way.  The Aztecs ditto.   Europe was harder to live than Africa, but could get by on rain fall agriculture(requiring only a smattering of science), and laged far behind, untill the Romans conquered the place, and did a massive genocide cultural as well as physicall.  2000ish years the descendants of the Guals are proud of thier language of modified Latin(bizzarely so are the Mexicans, but thats another thread)

(in reply to taleon)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/21/2007 11:25:40 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		You can come up with any theory you like to explain lack of development by the indiginous peoples in Africa.but as each African nation became independant the cry was onward and upward to economic development.

Then a whole series of corrupt despots frequently with Army backgrounds came on the scene , civil wars broke out coupled with  inter tribal rivalry. Result onward and downward to economic  failure and sustained poverty.

The white scapegoat no longer was in control. so who to blame?
Robert Mugabe blames the whites even tho' there are not there.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/21/2007 11:37:26 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
LadyE: you should go out on Friday night. Even misanthropic old me manages to do that !!! ps It is Friday isn't it, I lose track these days.

Thanks for your thoughtful advice on my social life Seeks. I prefer to stay in on a Friday night though, as my kids are here usually and with all the trouble in town these days its not a good idea to be out in it, unless one is one of those causing the trouble of course.E


Always one to help if I can LadyE.
In your posts you make Stourport sound like the urban battlegoround shown in the film Fort Apache, the Bronx. Paranoia maybe ?
Cant give a more recent reference cos' I never watch modern films.

In fact I haven't seen FA the Bronx. Not interested in watching urban lowlifes carrying out their dainty deeds.

Slap Shot was like a delicate perfume in comparison. Likewise Raging Bull.
Thats Jake La Motta not the Indian chief !
Pier Angeli was so sweet.
On 2nd thoughts maybe she was the idealised femme in Somebody Up There Likes Me.. Not sure of anything anymore .

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/21/2007 11:48:39 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/21/2007 4:26:56 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

We had a short documentary on the TV tonight about the Chinese in Africa (Channel 4 1835hrs). The Chinese have moved into a lot of African countries and set up business to access the mineral wealth of these countries to fuel China's growth.

The reporter was going on and on about the terrible working and living conditions of the African workers - basically how exploitative and uncaring the Chinese employers and merchants are, and how awful it all is. Sure, they did have terrible working and living conditions. Sure, they were being exploited. Sure it was awful.

But. What the Chinese were doing was no different to what western companies were doing at the same time in the same places. The working conditions, pay and exploitation under the Chinese were no different to the same conditions under the western companies.

But. The presence of the Chinese has brought extra work and extra prosperity to these countries - whilst we dont think a few dollars for the work counts as prosperity, its a heck of a lot better than the abject poverty these people would otherwise starve slowly to death on.

A thought struck me, that however bad these people's lives and countries are, the Chinese are actually doing a lot more for both than we in the west have ever done. What if the Chinese sort out Africa? What if they get the place moving forward, driven by their economic need for its resources, and driven by their need to have the place work properly?

What does that say about the west and our approach of selling them Mercedes Benz limousines, jet fighters and tanks on credit and then shipping them food aid because they cant afford the repayments for our unrequired luxury items? What does it mean for the future geopolitical scene?

E


Fascinating.

Isn't it interesting how global markets will propogate themselves to funnel money where it should go (as it should)...as opposed to where it isn't going...but for proper monetary gain?

The Americans were the imperilialists for a time....but those with an 11% annual growth rate (Chinese) now impede (Americans) hedonistic intentions.

Money makes the world go round.

Get ready for the new merry go round of "who's fucking up everything".

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/21/2007 5:56:51 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline 		(Or "propagate")

(in reply to Griswold)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/22/2007 4:50:31 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
In your posts you make Stourport sound like the urban battlegoround shown in the film Fort Apache, the Bronx. Paranoia maybe ?
Cant give a more recent reference cos' I never watch modern films.
.


Ah Seeks - Stourport is rough yes; but its about 5 miles from me. I use it as a location as only locals know it, and its close enough to be not untrue... Where I live is Little Bangladesh in the neighbourhood known as Oilfeckya (a quaint Irish immigrant name), in the Wyre Forest district.

As it happens, the kids were away last night so I was out until 230 this morning in the clubs in Birmingham. Its not so much fun being an arthritic 39 year old that can only manage 10 minute dancing sessions before the hip gives out, but a nice time was had by all.

What this has to do with the thread I'm not sure. But I started the thread, so I'll make it fit somehow dammit!

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/22/2007 4:57:46 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Thread deviation is the sign of a lively mind LadyE.

I never stay out late but right now I am working on my shed to try to improve the security a bit.
Its taking  its toll on my aged bones I can tell you.
Hacking sawing drilling....swearing .
Stopped for a cuppa and logon to my favorite website CM.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/22/2007 5:00:01 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/22/2007 5:13:06 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I am working on my shed to try to improve the security a bit.



Seeks, I have an inexpensive tank for sale and a few hand grenades (WW1 style - German potato mashers) to take out the unruly elements in society.

Tank scoring history:
  • Knocked out more than a few stray Poles on their way to work.
  • Awarded the Keep Britain Tidy Croix de Guerre for knocking out a youth club reported to be populated with menacing youths armed with 10 pence mix ups.
  • As it stands, knocked out 15 mosques in the North West of England, at prayer time too, so managed to obliterate untold numbers of Muslims.
  • Knocked out an anti-war demonstration, including decimating the ranks of unreconstructed socialists, PC liberals, the loony left, authoritarian liberals, commie-marxists etc.

Yours at a reasonable fee, Seeks.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/22/2007 5:26:43 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/22/2007 5:53:34 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		NG - you got the thread back on track, well done.

In the sense of offering to sell tanks to people who dont need them, for purposes well beyond anything that might be acceptable to us.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/22/2007 6:08:00 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		NG if its got both tracks and a working engine I will make you an offer !
Youd need to throw in a German steel helmet tho'
And jackboots.

LadyE: Oilfecya, I have just realised what a naughty girl you are lol.
I actually looked for Oilfecya on my AA map. true lol.
Thought I could have a nice day out onmy newish Yamaha 600. Just call me the grey flasher !

I live near Oil4Q2, along with lots of other OAPs in our retirement paradise .

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/22/2007 6:14:22 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

NG if its got both tracks and a working engine I will make you an offer !
Youd need to throw in a German steel helmet tho'
And jackboots.

LadyE: Oilfecya, I have just realised what a naughty girl you are lol.
I actually looked for Oilfecya on my AA map. true lol.
Thought I could have a nice day out onmy newish Yamaha 600. Just call me the grey flasher !

I live near Oil4Q2, along with lots of other OAPs in our retirement paradise .


You only just realised!?

The bike sounds good, but I think I'd prefer the Tiger tank.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The Chinese in Africa - 4/22/2007 7:07:01 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I seriously doubt the Chinese could order thier people to give up thier cars and go to bicycles.  That would cause a huge backlash among the 300,000,000 of them living in the Priveledged East. 



Tiannenmen Square.  The Chinese government could simply inform their citizens that due to the gas shortage gasoline will no longer be sold to private citizens.

What the Chinese government will do is enforce good standards on their vehicles.  Research alternative energy sources.  Build rail infrastructure.  Insist that people relocate to be near their jobs.  The important thing to realize about the Chinese is that you are not dealing with people who grew up under Western ideals of "Freedom" and "Democracy."   An example of this is that the Chinese, for the past 10 years, has been inviting (synonym for being forced at gunpoint) people to relocate to Tibet.  

quote:



The other 700,000,000 dirt poor, non Han nations that were annexxed and stripped of their wealth by China, are all in various stages of revolt already.



I would be interested in reading some source materials on this.  I have not read as much about the country as I would like to in the past 10 years.

quote:



Sinergy is right about Vietnam and China's main motivations, though I think a little nuclear war in Korea would affect China.  China is a huge country, but it has lots of huge problems.  



No argument here.  China spends 30% or so of it's gross national product on dealing with the health care issues brought about by their flagrant pollution.

I am a bit puzzled by the idea about nuclear weapons, however.  The last thing China wants is a cloud of radioactive fallout from Kim Il Jong or the radioactive crater that was his country floating over China.  Weapons technology has advanced in the west (and been stolen by the Chinese) for years.  While the threat of global thermonuclear war was a real threat during the Cold War, I tend to think most people realize the down side of using them during theatre conflicts.  In other words, if your army is going to occupy a country, probably best if you dont make it radioactive first.

quote:



Regarding Africa, in some places China does appear to be helping the local people, of course to be honest, the west spends huge sums of money on aid to various projects in Africa, and has for decades.  Of course in Sudan we see China giving cover and funding to the Genocide, and there is OIL in Sudan, so they are not above chopping off heads to get what they want. 



China only gives money where it is in the best interest of China.  If this involves giving money to the locals in, say, the Chad, I would be a bit shocked if there wasnt a supply of something like Tungsten which China had plans to mine.

quote:



While the west absolutly raped Africa(technically I mean sub Saharan Africa but I am not going to write it out everytime), the reason they were so weak goes deeper.  And will remain after the west is long and gone, unless there is a complete cultural replacement.  It is so easy to produce food in most of Africa, that complex societies were not forced to develop.  Civilizations developed in places where life was harder and required complex solutions.  Egypt is the perfect example, they had to have irrigation, science to know when to plant and open the canals, order to maintian the system, common language to operate the system, ect to grow food there.  And these kinds of societies overwhelm thier neighboors and get bigger/stronger.  Han China was the same way.  The Aztecs ditto.   Europe was harder to live than Africa, but could get by on rain fall agriculture(requiring only a smattering of science), and laged far behind, untill the Romans conquered the place, and did a massive genocide cultural as well as physicall.  2000ish years the descendants of the Guals are proud of thier language of modified Latin(bizzarely so are the Mexicans, but thats another thread)



Completely agree with this.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 38
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: The Chinese in Africa Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.188