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Columbine/Cho-Similar Situations?It can happen in most ... - 4/19/2007 5:00:32 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Does anyone else here see the similarities between Cho and the Columbine students?
Until I heard how badly Cho was teased in high school I did not fully get the connection.
Cho's classmates said he was constantly teased about the way he talked and his shyness. cbs11tv.com - Former Classmates: Virginia Tech Gunman Was Teased
The students at Columbine complained about being teased and stated no one took them seriously,
so they would settle it, "their way".  Daniel Mauser Memorial Web Site
I have never been a fan of certain "forms" of teasing, especially between children and adolescents.
Children can be so mean, cruel and vicious to each other and many adults don't seem to take it
seriously.
I do.
Obviously, Cho and the Columbine boys had serious, serious, mental health issues, I just
wonder if an adult had intervened when all these young men, were younger and they had
some serious counseling AND some "relief" from being teased, harassed and taunted....well
just maybe these incidents would not have happened.
Cho did not have a friend in the world, the Columbine boys had each other, they all had mental health
issues, they both had been teased in high school by their PEERS, and they both ultimately "went ballistic".
I work in a school, we have a large population these days of "emotionally disturbed" young adults, many
of these students seem smarter than their peers in the general education population.
The sole reason MANY of these students are "ED" or emotionally disturbed is due to BEHAVIOR, plain
and simple, with NO other viable disability present.
I recently became certified in Special Education 4 years ago, when I was taking my courses I used to comment
that the Emotionally Disturbed category did not seem to have a label when I went to school. Disability Info: Emotional Disturbance (FS5)
I go to work I see students that are acting up from the time they come to school until the time they leave--for no
reason other than the fact they are emotionally disturbed.
**I don't have these students**
Many of their teachers tell me that so and so will end up in jail in a few years.
These students do not get any school psychiatric services and I am assuming the way they are handled is being in a
small class with other "emotionally disturbed students".
Again I do not have THESE children in my room, but today when I heard the Principal say on the loud speaker "LOCK
YOUR DOORS NOW!", which I hear lately almost every day, I thought "Dear LORD I hope we never have a shooting
or stabbing here!"
Sad thing is, if it happens I WILL NOT BE SURPRISED.
Silly me, I guess there is no connection.
Just wondering how others here feel about it.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 4/19/2007 5:05:10 PM >

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RE: Columbine/Cho-Similar Situations?It can happen in m... - 4/19/2007 5:43:37 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I work in a school, we have a large population these days of "emotionally disturbed" young adults, many
of these students seem smarter than their peers in the general education population.



If you compare the average IQ of the general population vs. the average IQ of incarcerated individuals, the average IQ of those in some stage of the prison system is significantly higher.

The only school systems I really know about are those in the State of California.  Due to budget constraints, availability of teachers, and school closures have forced the average class sizes to be 40 or more students.

I used to work at summer camps.  One I worked at was set up for underprivileged inner-city kids to go see what a tree looked like.  I had seven campers.  Mixed race.  It was kid's at risk, so I was warned about possible issues between the students.  Keeping 7 kids occupied and not involved in picking on or teasing each other is easy.  Trying to do the same thing day in and day out when you have 40+ students per adult seems to me to be nearly impossible.

We have less kids in a class.  We have more teachers.  We will probably have less violence.  But this society is forfeiting their future by cutting back on money supplied for our children.  I have posted before about the Kennedy era emphasis on promoting schools, education, etc., which has been systematically dismantled by every administration since then.  We stop doing what we need to do to give our children a better life, the more bleak and depressing our future is going to be.

Columbine and Cho are simply the beginning.

Sinergy

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"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
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"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Columbine/Cho-Similar Situations?It can happen in m... - 4/19/2007 5:52:52 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I was lucky in that I attended a Catholic school. Ocassionally some parent would send their wayward daughter there to get "straightened out". The girl usually discovered within a few weeks, that she'd get suspended, or simply asked to leave if she repeatedly violated the rules. Bullying was not tolerated well, as I recall (if it was noticed, that is) .

If a parent complained about the rules in any way, the administration would simply explian: "This is a private school, and we have our own rules here. If you don't like them, then send her to a public school". It usually worked to quiet them.

I am not sure what the solution is, although I saw a psychologist on Oprah once, who said that the one thing people will remember for decades is being teased unmercifully in school. Somoene at a class reunion 40 years ater who meets the class bully can still be plagued with awful memories. So I do understand what is ahppening in some of these shootings. It is tragic.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/19/2007 5:53:41 PM >

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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Columbine/Cho-Similar Situations?It can happen in m... - 4/19/2007 7:45:15 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		    Troubled, angry, alienated, depressed, yada, yada,yada.  Isn't that called being a teenager?  I have no pity or empathy for this killer.  Excusing his actions in any way is an insult to all those who endured far more and never slaughtered any innocents.  One of the dead was a Holocaust survivor who was reported to have braced the door with his body, while his students went out the window.  Cho, who certainly never faced anything like that, shot him through the door.

     You know who I'll feel sorry for in the times ahead?  Any kid who dares to express him/herself in an 'incorrect' way.  I think of some of the papers I turned in back then... I once had to ask a counselor if he'd ever read "A Modest Proposal" and that was the end of it.  I did a student film in my most recent stint at college.  It was a profane rant, laced with images of brutal violence.  It was also very funny.  Should the next person of my outlook who gets that assignment be afraid to make s/he wants?

      As our schools change a little more in the wake of this, the last round of victims from this tragedy will have their suffering imposed.  The kids almost like Cho.  They're already isolated, emotional, and lonely.   Let's add harrassed for being dumb enough to try and get the poison out with art.

     Yeah.  It's going to happen again (and again), and one of these days, it will start in the counselors office.  

    

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RE: Columbine/Cho-Similar Situations?It can happen in m... - 4/19/2007 7:57:15 PM   
deadbluebird


Posts: 265
Joined: 1/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

   Troubled, angry, alienated, depressed, yada, yada,yada.  Isn't that called being a teenager? 
   


No it isnt. i believe its that mentality that allows this to continue. And i dont think its excusing his actions in any way. its Explaining partly why his actions happened. also i don't think it is an insult for those who endured far more or worse. First of all your not really sure what he endured.But even if we knew everything he had to put up with  not everyone is the same. Not everyone can handle the same things. Everyone had a different pain tolerence just as everyone has a different point at which they break.


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RE: Columbine/Cho-Similar Situations?It can happen in m... - 4/19/2007 8:17:43 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Hummm, I am not saying I feel "sorry" for the killer at all!
He could have killed ME or you, or anyone we love.
I am saying that it was obvious to many people that he had SERIOUS problems,
for years.
The mental health system is this country is, should we say, piss poor in general?
I blame a lot of this on the cuts Reagan made years ago, cutting funding for many
mental health programs.
MANY of the mentally ill literally have no where to go, many of them are just on the streets.
I am saying we have a system in place in which many, many, troubled young people and
adults are not getting the help they clearly need.
And we see the ramifications.  One of the positive things I see coming out of this tragedy, is the
fact that we will KNOW hear a hell of a lot about areas that are dear to me:  mental health,
psychiatry, psychology, mental illness, programs for the mentally ill and a hell of a lot of
awareness.  It takes this sort of "tragedy" to show how broken the system is.
I see young people that could turn into another Cho, every day at work.
Psychology just happens to be one of my passions, I am planning on getting a Masters in
Mental Health Counseling, I just need that push, lol.
I guess I sound nuts, but I wish I could have been his counselor before he went nuts, so many
people need help, it just makes me so sad.  If that young man had been getting the help he needed,
he should have been in an inpatient facility, on medication, at the very least until or IF he got better.
I do plan to go back to school soon.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 4/19/2007 8:23:58 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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RE: Columbine/Cho-Similar Situations?It can happen in m... - 4/19/2007 9:02:54 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Well, this just goes to show that there is no labor shortage in this country as some would have us believe.
MzMia, don't look at this as a "failure" on the part of teachers just look at it as you're also producing agricultural workers in your and other schools.
Yes we need Engineers, Drs, Nurses etc but we also need "Lawn Jockeys" too. And construction workers and all kinds of skilled and unskilled labor.
Everyone isn't college material.
As disturbed as this Cho guy was I;m amazed that he got accepted into college.
The bottom line is, some people should just never have kids.
Too many immature "parents" out there who can't get by without some type of public "assistance."

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RE: Columbine/Cho-Similar Situations?It can happen in m... - 4/19/2007 9:13:16 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Ahhh but that is were you are wrong popeye.
I just heard on t.v., by the former head of the Houston FBI that this
guy had a well planned and brilliant attack.
He said it was as well thought out, planned and executed as an FBI sting.
 
Most of the criminally insane have high IQ's, lol.
Ted Bundy is said to have a genius level IQ and was a law student when he
took a break to begin his murder spree.
Start reading about the mentally ill, its fascinating, come to the dark side
they have cookies there.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 4/19/2007 9:18:16 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Columbine/Cho-Similar Situations?It can happen in m... - 4/19/2007 9:23:18 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Ahhh but that is were you are wrong popeye.
I just heard on t.v., by the former head of the Houston FBI that this
guy had a well planned and brilliant attack.
He said it was as well thought out, planned and executed as an FBI sting.
LOL
Most of the criminally insane have high IQ's, lol.
Ted Bundy had a Masters Degree, me thinks you don't know this field that well.
Insane does not mean unintelligent.



Oh yeah, "Brilliant".
I think everyone knows brilliant reprobates.
If he'd made a bomb he could have killed hundreds.
I can imagine myself as a teacher walking down the halls sizing up the kids to myself; "Dr, ...Businessman,.......hmm,...his secratary,. lawn jocky, lawn jocky, lawnjocky, teacher, ....STRIPPER!"
I really do think we should bring back the draft, it would do some kids a lot of good.

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RE: Columbine/Cho-Similar Situations?It can happen in m... - 4/19/2007 9:26:48 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I really do think we should bring back the draft, it would do some kids a lot of good.



I agree, popeye1250.

Draft anybody who thinks Iraq was a good idea.

Start with Shotgun, Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz and AnencephalyBoy.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Columbine/Cho-Similar Situations?It can happen in m... - 4/19/2007 9:28:01 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Well, this just goes to show that there is no labor shortage in this country as some would have us believe.
MzMia, don't look at this as a "failure" on the part of teachers just look at it as you're also producing agricultural workers in your and other schools.
Yes we need Engineers, Drs, Nurses etc but we also need "Lawn Jockeys" too. And construction workers and all kinds of skilled and unskilled labor.
Everyone isn't college material.
As disturbed as this Cho guy was I;m amazed that he got accepted into college.
The bottom line is, some people should just never have kids.
Too many immature "parents" out there who can't get by without some type of public "assistance."


Cho's family is nothing like him however. His sister is a graduate of Princeton and works for the US State Department. I dont think it is really fair to blame the parents if they didn't have anything to do with it.

Cho said in the tape that he believed the Columbine boys were "martyrs" or heros. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold went through years of being bullied and socially outcasted. That alone didn't cause their rampage, but it is a contributing factor and it provides a channel for their anger and hatred to spill to.

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RE: Columbine/Cho-Similar Situations?It can happen in m... - 4/19/2007 9:31:11 PM   
UR2Badored


Posts: 506
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		Fast reply:

Just like in the war, if someone is willing to intentionally die to harm others (places no value for his life)  ie strap a bomb to his/her back or commit suicide afterward.  It is very difficult to protect anyone from this type of predator.  There is no bargaining chip when that is the case and only determination. 

And some schools have as many bomb threats almost as many times as the pledge of allegiance is recited... That is it's own problem with security especially when kids are doing it to get the day off. 



< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 4/19/2007 9:41:23 PM >

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RE: Columbine/Cho-Similar Situations?It can happen in m... - 4/19/2007 9:35:17 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Great points cyberdude, I agree with you on everything but this.
The parents are not to blame for what he did, but the parents and
his great aunt or grandmother or whoever they show on t.v. ALL KNEW
that his was crazy as hell.
The family did not seem to go all out on helping him to address his mental health issues {not sure what they did to help
him, but it will come out}. But they did pay for college. An expert of the asian community
stated that culturally many asians do not seek help for mental health issues.
From what I have heard on t.v., he had a laptop, and a desktop computer, a video camera, a digital camera,
credit cards, cash, money to buy the guns and a car.
I would bet half my paycheck, Cho was supported totally by his $ parents.
His family supported him, bought him all that he had and paid tuition, room and board which I am sure
was not cheap.  I would be surprised to find out he EVER worked anywhere except his parents dry
cleaning businesses.
It appears his parents might have been scared of him, you would be surprised the parents that are scared of
their own children.
His family knew he was mad, but instead of sending him to "Happy Valley Institution" where he belonged,
they sent him to VTech, where they THOUGHT maybe education would cure his mental illness.
 

< Message edited by MzMia -- 4/19/2007 9:47:57 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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