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RE: gay training help needed! - 4/19/2007 8:03:33 PM

Aswad

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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elorin

This is something that has bugged me for YEARS. I have two different long term, long distance relationships with crossdressing subs. Both of them wanted me to "turn them gay" or wanted to tell me how they are gay.

I'll take a wild stab at this, but only because I'm too tired to know better.

quote:

BOTH of them are bisexual. They are attracted to women, and women turn them on, they like sex with women. However it is for some reason a turnon/fetish for them to have to say out loud "I am gay" "I am homosexual" as well as ~dingdingding~ I like to suck cock.

Are they bisexual in the sex-with-both-genders sense, or in the love-both-genders sense, or both? If the former, then it stands to reason they have not rejected the social conditioning that men typically undergo with regards to their heterosexuality. Hence, this becomes both a taboo (breaking those seems to turn men on as much as women), as well as a form of humiliation. Some element of catharsis may be involved too, I'd guess.

In the heat of passion, we all probably have things we'd like to hear, and some of us would prefer those to be things that will turn us on even more. They're just verbalizing one of those things. So, yeah, a fetish of sorts.

quote:

They also BOTH want me to find myriad other women and tell them all about my "gay sissyboys".

This part I'm fairly certain can be chalked up to social conditioning taboo/fetish and humiliation derived from that. If they're telling you this while they're turned on, they may not have given it a lot of thought, so even if you do know women who gave a damn about random strangers being sissified(sp?), telling them probably wouldn't be a good idea without asking them out-of-mode.

quote:

Training basically included [...]. They both want me to tell them [...].

Both have elaborate fantasies [...].

Wow. That's a pretty strong fixation, isn't it? I wouldn't know, having no experience with topping men (faith issue).

Any clue as to whether there's something deeper behind it? They might be looking for some way to "deflect guilt" in actually coming out for real or something.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 21

RE: gay training help needed! - 4/19/2007 9:33:26 PM

HutchGarahl

Posts: 562
Joined: 1/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Actually, unpopular as what I'm about to say might be, this simply isn't the case.
Sexual and emotional reconditioning is possible from any orientation to any other orientation, provided the subject is willing and the person performing the reconditioning has the necessary qualifications and trust relationship.

Really? I have never heard of this happening. Sheesh am I that far behind the times??? :(

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Post #: 22

RE: gay training help needed! - 4/19/2007 11:32:38 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

Really? I have never heard of this happening. Sheesh am I that far behind the times??? :(

Nah. It's just not a very popular topic in these politically correct times. Mostly because some people read an implicit "fixing" into "changing". A pity, too, since we've come pretty far in actually doing it since we stopped viewing it as a disorder to be non-straight.

Most people have some level of bi wiring in them, and stuff can be done to get them to relate emotionally in a different way to those of same gender, opposite gender, or both.

As for the physical bits ... I haven't read up a lot on it, since it hasn't been an issue for me, but IIRC, the basic idea is that you use CBT (the therapy, not the fun stuff) to desensitize them to any discomfort about the desired sexuality, then you start to do conditioning to make them associate it with something positive and "hot", and keep working on it until they're comfortable with it, or even prefer it (results will vary, as with all psych stuff). Somewhat simplified.

You can also use aversion therapy or whatnot to induce discomfort with the "old" model of sexuality, although I don't think anyone actually does this anymore, since it doesn't add anything useful.

Ideal results are best parallelled by the BDSM proverb of "Today's hard limit is tomorrow's fetish". Start carefully, go slowly, and eventually you'll like it, possibly love it.

It's still not an exact science, nor does it give perfect results with those who simply aren't wired that way at all (the social conditioning, stigma, etc. are removable, it's a question of time, but absent any wiring for it, results are more sketchy), but it still does give some additional options for people.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 23

RE: gay training help needed! - 4/19/2007 11:52:58 PM

HutchGarahl

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COOL! I'm definately gonna have to check into this more. There's a beauty in Mass I would love to help turn as it would...:P It's the vampire in me. LOL! Thanks Aswad, you've been most helpful.

And who says ya can't teach an old dog new tricks.

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Post #: 24

RE: gay training help needed! - 4/20/2007 7:41:08 AM

Aswad

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Heh. You're welcome. Just take good care of him/her.

When we stop learning is when we stop living.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 25

RE: gay training help needed! - 4/21/2007 7:18:31 AM

HutchGarahl

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Oh...I will. I've had my eye on her sicne the day I met her. She's a lot taller than I....hovering around 6" 3.....but she is a sweetheart.

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Post #: 26

RE: gay training help needed! - 4/21/2007 7:38:29 AM

Elorin

Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
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Aswad, the only part that bugs me is bisexual men wanting to be called gay. ~chuckles~
All of the rest was simply sharing my experiences of two men who wanted to be called gay, so the OP could get some insight onto what other male subs who use similar terminology were into.

Your question about bisexuality is frustrating for me, but this is why. I define someone's sexual orientation based on who they are attracted to, and who they find sexually arousing. When I say I think someone is bisexual it is because both genders are attractive and sexually arousing to them. Since my first post made it clear that women do that for them yet they want to call themselves gay, personal frsutration. ~s~ But that's just me.

They are attracted to both men and women, both men and women turned them on when we started. Personally, I think that it is a situation of bisexuality being internally denied, and then HAVING to be admitted, and leading to an exaggeration.

However, I will state that my slave daphne claims that he now has no desire to have sex with women, is not turned on by women, and cannot get hard when thinking about or viewing women unless something else he fetishizes (scat play or a woman making him suck a man's cock) is involved.

The desire for me to tell others is different for them. With daphne, when I said "it's a great fantasy but honestly most the people I know just don't care, and I don't like you pressuring me to tell strangers your fetish" he backed off. However, when I do tell him that I mentioned his training to a friend, or on a message board, it is a huge turn on for him. Absolutely associated with the humiliation of someone else knowing his dirty little secret. With stephannie, she can't get out of the fantasy mindset. She likes listing the names of women who know her secret as she masturbates. Which is funny, because my mom is one of them. ~LOL~ I do occasionally find other women who I can mention stephannie to because of this, but she has never stopped asking me to tell everyone I know about her secret, no matter how much I've said "it would be sexual harrassment for me to mention you to my co-workers." To each their own, and stephannie will continue to experience frustration in that aspect of her fantasy because she can't make the distinction between fantasy and reality.

I would say that they have strong fetishes, yes. But I wouldn't say it is unusual, from what I know of other sissies, crossdressers, and forced bi fetishists.

Clues about something deeper behind it? I never considered it. If this is their fetish, and since I enjoy working with both of them, I accept it. I never desired to psychoanalyze their fetishes.

~E

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RE: gay training help needed! - 4/21/2007 3:38:48 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elorin

Aswad, the only part that bugs me is bisexual men wanting to be called gay. ~chuckles~

Yeah, I get that. I'd have a big problem with it myself, being all pedantic about language, correct definitions of terms, equivalence of intentionally stating something false and lying, and so forth.

For them, though, I imagine the bit about being called "gay" is associated with that term being derogatory in their mind, at least on a subconscious level, possibly through the male social conditioning issues.

quote:

Your question about bisexuality is frustrating for me, but this is why. I define someone's sexual orientation based on who they are attracted to, and who they find sexually arousing. When I say I think someone is bisexual it is because both genders are attractive and sexually arousing to them. Since my first post made it clear that women do that for them yet they want to call themselves gay, personal frsutration. ~s~ But that's just me.

Sorry to be frustrating you.

I'm probably sexually compatible with both genders, but I'm not emotionally compatible with men in a romantic sense, and I know a few others that are the same way, although most are attracted in both ways. I've heard of cases where this was inverted.

quote:

They are attracted to both men and women, both men and women turned them on when we started. Personally, I think that it is a situation of bisexuality being internally denied, and then HAVING to be admitted, and leading to an exaggeration.

Quite possibly. If you'd like some help in picking their brains, I'd be glad to help.

quote:

However, I will state that my slave daphne claims that he now has no desire to have sex with women, is not turned on by women, and cannot get hard when thinking about or viewing women unless something else he fetishizes (scat play or a woman making him suck a man's cock) is involved.

Rather interesting. I do know that sexual orientation can be reconditioned, and this can happen unintentionally, although it is also possible that he didn't have the attraction in the first case and hasn't realized that until now. For men, at least some men, the activities themselves can provide arousal that is distinct/seperate from the arousal of the interaction. Perhaps something like that could have caused him to not realize this stuff until now?

quote:

The desire for me to tell others is different for them. With daphne, [...]

Seems sensible enough.

quote:

With stephannie, she can't get out of the fantasy mindset. She likes listing the names of women who know her secret as she masturbates. Which is funny, because my mom is one of them. ~LOL~

I would definitely feel a bit wierd at the thought of someone masturbating to the idea that my mom knows something about them.

quote:

I do occasionally find other women who I can mention stephannie to because of this, but she has never stopped asking me to tell everyone I know about her secret, no matter how much I've said "it would be sexual harrassment for me to mention you to my co-workers."

Yeah. There sometimes is a small core of truth to the idea that the blood for erections comes from the brain. Some men seem to shut down their rational thinking when they're aroused, at least partially. I know I used to do so back in the most hormonal teenage years, although I haven't done so since.

quote:

I would say that they have strong fetishes, yes. But I wouldn't say it is unusual, from what I know of other sissies, crossdressers, and forced bi fetishists.

Okay, I'll add that to my notes.

quote:

I never desired to psychoanalyze their fetishes.

Sometimes I can't help myself, sorry.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Elorin)

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Post #: 28

RE: gay training help needed! - 4/21/2007 3:52:59 PM

LaTigresse

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OHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOO!

I must not be really and truely a lesbian

............I never had any training!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Post #: 29

RE: gay training help needed! - 4/21/2007 7:33:42 PM

MasterTaino

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Joined: 4/16/2005
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Well, well, , Here is the Gay Master....

Not sure what he wants as "gay training", but my experience in this site is that many bi sub men have a hard time accepting their attraction for men or surrendering to another man. That is why we see a lot of "force bi".

He may just want to meet someone who will make him comfortable and accepting of his own homosexuality or bisexuality, and it is not sure how to address it.

He also may want to be "humilliated" by being treated and used as a gay peson.

One resource is our own Training Academy -- a weekend experience that will allow him to find his true heart as a slave and come to terms with thise issue. Many faculty members (not all) as well as staff and participants are gay and may be able to help. But the male slave Training is open to slaves of all sexual orientations, and female dommes are part of the faculty as well.

You do not say where you or him are located, but I can volunteer to talk with him and see if there is a way for me to help as a Gay Master. I have mentored het slaves and Masters in the past so I cna relate to these issues.

Also, check my website at www.mastertaino.com

Master Taino

[Mod Note: email address removed]

< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 4/21/2007 11:48:15 PM >

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RE: gay training help needed! - 4/22/2007 4:35:00 AM

Elorin

Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Yeah, I get that. I'd have a big problem with it myself, being all pedantic about language, correct definitions of terms, equivalence of intentionally stating something false and lying, and so forth.

Oooh me too! I'm very much like that.

quote:

For them, though, I imagine the bit about being called "gay" is associated with that term being derogatory in their mind, at least on a subconscious level, possibly through the male social conditioning issues.

No disagreement here.

quote:

I'm probably sexually compatible with both genders, but I'm not emotionally compatible with men in a romantic sense, and I know a few others that are the same way, although most are attracted in both ways. I've heard of cases where this was inverted.

Ok I see your point now. Romance versus sexual attraction. Hmm...I could and have fallen in love with either gender. I have no idea how stephannie and daphne feel about falling in love, we've never really talked it about it.

quote:

Quite possibly. If you'd like some help in picking their brains, I'd be glad to help.

Not really, but thanks. If either ever has a desire to figure out why they want what they do, I might take you up on it.

quote:

For men, at least some men, the activities themselves can provide arousal that is distinct/seperate from the arousal of the interaction. Perhaps something like that could have caused him to not realize this stuff until now?

Never discussed vanilla sex life w/ him so I don't know. I could ask, but...again, that falls into more analysis which I don't think is necessary unless the desires are causing emotional distress.

quote:

I would definitely feel a bit wierd at the thought of someone masturbating to the idea that my mom knows something about them.

Mom gave her consent for me to tell stephannie she knows...~laughs~ although I do have to laugh internally every time it comes up. "Jane knows. Sally knows. My mom knows..."

quote:

Yeah. There sometimes is a small core of truth to the idea that the blood for erections comes from the brain. Some men seem to shut down their rational thinking when they're aroused, at least partially.

I'd say it is more a matter of not having a healthy distinction between fantasy and reality. Either that or not respecting my personal limits. Either way, after years of interaction I've given up and leave her frustrated b/c I won't tell anyone new, and let her waste her time asking me to.

~E

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RE: gay training help needed! - 4/22/2007 6:43:00 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elorin

Oooh me too! I'm very much like that.

You mean I'm not alone? Whee, there might be a whole species of us out there!

quote:

Ok I see your point now. Romance versus sexual attraction. Hmm...I could and have fallen in love with either gender. I have no idea how stephannie and daphne feel about falling in love, we've never really talked it about it.

Fair enough. Hopefully not frustrated anymore, though?

quote:

Not really, but thanks. If either ever has a desire to figure out why they want what they do, I might take you up on it.

Sure, no problem.

quote:

Never discussed vanilla sex life w/ him so I don't know. I could ask, but...again, that falls into more analysis which I don't think is necessary unless the desires are causing emotional distress.

I'd tend to agree. It just seemed like it was causing you some distress, or at least some frustration / confusion.

quote:

Mom gave her consent for me to tell stephannie she knows...~laughs~ although I do have to laugh internally every time it comes up. "Jane knows. Sally knows. My mom knows..."

Not sure whether to say 'kinky' or 'creepy'. ~lol~

I take it your mom knows about your preferences, then?

quote:

I'd say it is more a matter of not having a healthy distinction between fantasy and reality. Either that or not respecting my personal limits. Either way, after years of interaction I've given up and leave her frustrated b/c I won't tell anyone new, and let her waste her time asking me to.

I'm not saying s/he doesn't fail to distinguish, just that the reason for this failure might be overarousal at the thought. Guess you could tell from the body language, though. I don't think s/he is intentionally disrespecting your limits, at least.

If s/he's nagging you about it, how about suggesting putting it up on the Web where someone can google it? The suggestion might resolve the issue one way or another.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 32