Religion and polyamory... (Full Version)

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stormsfate -> Religion and polyamory... (4/24/2005 9:06:51 AM)

quote:

But my Faith says one and one alone~

Sincerely, ant


I didn't want to hijack the other thread (as I'm often so guilty of doing), but I was interested in the perspective of others with regard to ant's above referred to statement.

When my owner and I first began discussing polyamory, it didn't hit me, but after we actually began our relationship with v, some of the teachings from my youth reared up and I struggled with the moral issues of polyamory. Despite our exploration getting its start by my approaching my owner, I hit a brick wall for a time and at one point was asking myself "what have I done?" I felt as if I had opened pandora's box and would never be able to close it again, or go back. I did work through it, because it was important to me to find out what was causing the feelings I was having and to resolve the conflict I was having inside.

During that time, I remember running across some articles that gave me an interesting perspective. I don't consider myself religious in the least...but I am spiritual in ways. I have beliefs that could easily fit in with many different religions if you rolled them into one, from christianity to paganism, to wiccan, to muslim, but I was raised in a christian household. I had been taught that polyamory was wrong. At any rate, I discovered that the Bible actually does not speak against polyamory...imagine my suprise...lol.

So I'm curious...did any of you struggle with any perceived moral issues as it relates to poly? I find it ironic that when I came to the BDSM lifestyle at age 24, I never once struggled with what it was in me that craved this lifestyle as many appear to do. I never once thought something was wrong with me so when it came to this, I was blindsided by what I was feeling at the time...I simply never expected to feel those things.

I am happy to report that I'm very much at peace now and not at all conflicted, but it was a journey for me.

best regards,
fate




ansfrid -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (4/24/2005 4:20:28 PM)

I'm atheist, which means my moral compass is of my own devising. I determine for myself what is right, based on what I am comfortable with, what lets me fit in and live with the people in my life, and what lets me contribute to a better world. Ultimately, no, I had no crisis of faith in allowing myself to pursue bdsm, although I do have occasional dilemmas of ethics as I make sure I am pursuing it for the right reasons, and not taking it for granted. I do for example, frequently examine my motives, make sure that I am not letting it colour or influence my general attitudes towards women, and to make sure I keep a healthy perspective on it.

I will rape some one with her permission for example, but I double check myself to make sure that desire doesn't ever risk blossoming outside of a consensual atmosphere. It's never been an issue, I just make sure I don't get complacent.



glassdoll -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (4/24/2005 8:16:27 PM)

as a personal choice, i have to be monogamus when in a serious realtionship.
i get weighted down by emotion and can feel my dom's emotion so heavily that one more person in the mix is devastating.

however...... each to their own. everyone goes by a set of rules they made up or found along the way.



onceburned -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (4/24/2005 8:37:57 PM)

Okay, I am an intruder here... I stumbled in because I saw the thread's title. I am not involved in a poly relationship but it is fairly well known that polygamy is acknowledged as acceptable in the Old Testament.

2 Samuel 5:12-13
quote:

And David knew that the LORD had established him as king of Israel and had exalted his rule for the sake of his people Israel.
13
David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem after he had come from Hebron, and more sons and daughters were born to him in Jerusalem.


According to 1 Kings 11:3, Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

2 Chronicles 11:21 says (more realistically) that Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives.

And there are other verses too, which imply a situation of one man and multiple partners.

One of the problems of people preaching Biblical morality is that they tend to pick and choose which verses they pay attention to.



SweetDommes -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (4/24/2005 9:33:03 PM)

Which is a problem that I have had for years, chris. Yes, the Old Testament says to stone homosexual men, but the New Testament says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" ... and where, exactly does it supposedly say that monogamy is the only way, when there are dozens of examples of polygamy in the Bible (Abraham, Essau, Jacob,David, Soloman ... the list could go on). And y'all have already heard my spiel about "treat your neighbor as you would be treated," so I'll spare you that one (this time ... *insert evil chuckle*).

I choose to believe that God is a loving, merciful God who wants us to be happy as long as it does not infringe upon other people's rights and happiness. If I am happy being homosexual, and I don't force homosexuality on anyone else, then I think God will be ok with that. If I am happy in a polyamourous relationship, and I'm not cheating on and lying to my partners, then I think God will be ok with that too.



onceburned -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (4/24/2005 10:24:54 PM)

quote:

Yes, the Old Testament says to stone homosexual men


It also says, many more times, that people who commit adultery are to be executed. Yet somehow anti-gay activists tend to ignore all those verses yet pick up the single one against male homosexuality.



SweetDommes -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (4/24/2005 10:30:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

Yes, the Old Testament says to stone homosexual men


It also says, many more times, that people who commit adultery are to be executed. Yet somehow anti-gay activists tend to ignore all those verses yet pick up the single one against male homosexuality.


yup, I know. And that is actually where the "let he who is without sin" comes from - the Rabbis set up a woman to be executed using the adultery law.



ravenna -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (4/24/2005 11:37:25 PM)

i never expected to be owned by two men. i've never had any reservations about being able to love more than one person, or have sex with more than one, or submit to more than one, but being actually owned by more than one man was a complete surprise. When my master Michelangelo told me in January what he wanted to do with my life, that he wanted to bring Marco back into it and own me jointly with him, i was completely dumbfounded, but i love and trust both of these guys, each had owned me before, they are the two inseparable and indispensible and very different loves of my life, and within thirty seconds of being with the two of them together again it all made perfect sense. (Besides, it really wasn't up to me, anyway, thank God.)

As for "serving two masters" creating a religious problem? My body, heart, mind and spirit all belong to my masters without reservation, but my soul (and their souls) ultimately belongs to another Master, who is also my masters' Master; my owners agree that my soul is only theirs to use in trust until it must be returned to Christ at the end of my life. So in that sense we all serve the same Master...



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (4/25/2005 5:21:04 AM)

As most religious difficulties go, unless you have truly internalized them as your own, they won't cause much of an issue. Thus, picking and choosing what makes logical sense in terms of what feels right for you and what's important to you isn't generally a big deal.

The problem is when someone HAS internalized a religious value of their own and then comes to find that it creates a paradox with who they are as a person. This can be truly devastating depending on the culture, the personal paradox and the maturity of the person involved.

Personally I've never been religious, though I was raised in a christian family and culture. I've always known I was poly and before I discovered what "poly" was or that it was a valid choice, I simply realized that I would have to just be single and not settle down since I knew only one person was not for me. Hows that for a 15 year olds logic?

It is sad for people who had internalized values which conflict with their identity, and I think each person has to work it out. Some people make bargains- for example they say it's ok to have sex before marriage as long as they truly love the person. Some people lose faith completely. Some people repress it. Some people find their own path within their religion, though this can easily lead to them being ostracized from the religious community.



stormsfate -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (4/25/2005 6:38:08 AM)

What great insight, Emerald. I really think part of my struggle came from feeling like I *should* think it was wrong and wondering why I didn't. Its just terribly ironic to me that this is where it came up...lol. At any rate, it was interesting to say the least and I certainly experienced tremendous personal growth in the past year or so.


best regards,
fate



MadameDahlia -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (4/25/2005 11:43:54 AM)

I've never been religious. I've tried. Plenty of religions. I tried going to temple, I tried going to church. I tried the Catholic outlook and the four-square view.

During that time I found that the rampant hypocrisy outweighed any positive influence. I also found that when I prayed I felt like laughing. It didn't feel right. It felt odd... unnatural.

I've since adapted morals from other religions. I've created my own guidelines. I'm living quite happily doing so.

As long as I'm not hurting anyone (at least without their consent) I'm free to do as I please. As long as those I'm involved with know that I intend on having multiple submissives/slaves and they're okay with it I'll continue to nurture a relationship with them. If they don't feel up to it for whatever reason... they know where the door is.

I don't know why people who are unsuited for one another stay together. But I've gotten off topic. It's too early in the morning.



lechat -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (4/27/2005 8:25:19 PM)

you could always join the the morman church, but you'd hafta give up everything fun: alcohol, caffine, self abuse ,oral sex etc. but you might get accepted to the fbi academy!



ScooterTrash -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (4/28/2005 4:59:48 PM)

quote:

As long as I'm not hurting anyone (at least without their consent) I'm free to do as I please.
I think MD pretty well summed it up with that line. Everyone, regardless of their spititual beliefs, if they lean that way, have to determine for themselves what fits in their own moral window. Personally I figure as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights..it's cool.



BobcatsLilMinx -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (5/4/2005 1:53:22 AM)

I was pleasantly surprised to find a text in my own faith that said a man may love a woman by his mastery of her... It made me feel a lot happier about my path, as the Italian texts all denounce slavery. But having said that, translations are skewy at best, and I have never been sure if the word "slavery" could mean "oppression", and thus refer to a state where you are not free to do as you please, or be who you are. As mentioned somewhere else, a lot of slaves find their freedom in slavery.

I don't recall ever seeing any texts that speak of poly relationships... Unless you consider the ritual mating of the Goddess with both the Holly King and the Oak King every year? So I guess that does make it ok!



Manawyddan -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (5/4/2005 7:08:03 AM)

Leviticus makes very clear that monogamous relationships are the norm. Although it never states so specifically, it makes it clear that, for example, a woman is not allowed to divorce a man, marry a second, and then divorce him and go back to the first ... it's considered a perversion and clearly that's because it's trading off sexually.

It's true that David had concubines. It's true that Jacob had two wives and two maidservants whom he sired children from. However it is an extremely naive view of the old testament to suggest that the actions of the people in it are meant to be prescriptive, Jews don't have the same approach to our religious figures as Christians and Muslims do: they are not viewed as perfect and are commonly presented 'warts and all.' Read a little closer and you'll see that every man in the Bible who does have more than one wife, ends up ultimately unhappy with the situation.



knees2you -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (5/5/2005 4:08:32 PM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

Yes, the Old Testament says to stone homosexual men

It also says, many more times, that people who commit adultery are to be executed. Yet somehow anti-gay activists tend to ignore all those verses yet pick up the single one against male homosexuality.



Onceburned is correct! Everytthing from the Old Testament
was carried over to the New![:D]

Look into Romans Chapter 1 It also talks about this subject and people changing their sexes, and Why it is Wrong also~[&:]

Sincerely, Ant[;)]

[image]local://upfiles/19655/9E9B1EBE6BA047A2ADF39527DBEADFA2.gif[/image]



darkangel -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (5/5/2005 5:14:27 PM)

wow, ant -

I am sorry, I do respect your views. But my heart aches also, a righteous ache. It aches that you know about God from man, but you don't know Him.

I am bloody proud to follow God, and to know His truth and His love and His light.
I was about to type that I was ashamed by your words, being a christian myself. But no - I refuse. I refuse to be pushed away into denying my belief, because of ignorance and a lack of love and acceptance.

Peace and Love

[image]local://upfiles/31431/789C65C8A2DB4E478856F51CF1C91FE8.jpg[/image]



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (5/6/2005 6:29:03 AM)

Not being religious or Christian, I don't really pay attention to what the bible would or would not dictate in terms of how I live my life personally.



darkangel -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (5/6/2005 11:26:05 AM)

Greetings Emerald -

I really hope you didn't take offense to my post. I wasn't trying to 'convert' anyone - Just show my disgust at anothers view, even though I may understand that others have a point of view as valid as mine, doesn't mean I have to stand by and accept it for myself, especially when it is supposed to be about something I believe so passionately in.

I have to apologise to people - It is very rare that I get angry - And maybe I should not have blown up as I did, but there is a difference between anger and the righteous anger I feel against such utter tripe. I guess, as a christian, I refuse to be associated with any kind of bigotry from those who would assume to follow the same path as I do.

I have found many christians have only read the bible as it is given to them. Few bother studying the original text (human laziness I guess) - and even fewer bother to read the other books that were convienently 'left out' (which include ones written by women)by the religious scholars of the day. And most importantly, they forget to communicate with God. There is an enormous difference between fundemental christianity and Gods truth.

I am also confused as to when this became a 'homosexual bash' by a select few - instead of a thread about poly.

To those I respect, apologies

Peace and Love



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Religion and polyamory... (5/6/2005 11:35:59 AM)

Well it's hard for most people to read the original texts since they were in greek, aramaic and latin...

I think it would be rather presumptuous for anyone to think they can know "gods truth" as even most Christians claim to have no real understanding in the end of what god is, is doing or aiming for. That won't stop them from telling others how wrong they still are however.

I'm not offended by Christians or Christianity, and my statements certainly do not apply only to them.



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