Pointless Observation of the Day (Full Version)

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StellaByStarlite -> Pointless Observation of the Day (4/15/2007 6:46:06 AM)

Ok, so yeah... the Mister and I were out on a scout and price mission yesterday, and we ended up at Petsmart. ( We adopted a new kitty-cat, but that's another story).

I was browsing the fishtanks and noticed that assorted koi were priced at $12.99 a piece. $13 a fish. Is it me, or is that really pricy for carp that are culls?

If you take a good long look at these culls, they're not *that* special. I mean, if what you want are just pretty colored pondfish, you can buy the fancy long-finned goldfish that are a few dollars cheaper. They're more adaptable and won't tear up your pond plants. These koi are so overpriced, my god.



juliaoceania -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/15/2007 8:01:08 AM)

My sister has a koi pond. she has koi of various sizes. She names them all after semi precious and precious gems. She just added Garnet the other day, which she spent 75 dollars on. This fish cost her about 75 dollars and they normally cost 500 bucks. These are Japanese koi though. They will eat out of your hand and get rather large.



petdave -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/15/2007 8:45:51 AM)

i can't believe the price of koi either [&o] My wife wants a koi pond, and we'll probably try stocking it with the long-tailed goldfish first.
Of course, they charge $7-$8 apiece for water lillies at the garden center, and they grow wild (to the point of blanketing hundreds of square feet!) at one of the parks around here...





SusanofO -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/15/2007 11:05:19 AM)

It's captialism in action (plus uninformed consumers who will in fact buy them, or not think twice about the price before they do), IMO.

I am all for capitalism, and there is also that adage: "Let the buyer beware" - but, when it comes to things like Koi, I for one, would tend to be one of those un-informed consumers, so sometimes I don't know what to make of it all, either.  

- Susan  



Sinergy -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/15/2007 11:17:51 AM)

 
The thing about Koi is their lifespan (50 years) and the size they can grow make them valuable.  A 7 inch Koi is approximately one to two years old.

In real terms, this means that the store had to breed them, care for them, feed them, etc., for a year before putting them on the market.

After all that investment of time and money in caring for them, they have to ship them to the store in question, where a certain percentage of them die in transit, die in the showroom tank, etc., before they can ever be sold.

Compare this to a siamese fighting fish which lives 2 years and breeds in 4-6 months.  Mollies breed a month or so after they are born.

Sometimes there is a good reason something is expensive.

Sinergy



TheHeretic -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/15/2007 11:27:52 AM)

     Those thinking about the joys of a koi pond might want to consider what birds of prey range in your area.  An aquaintance kept having them vanish and was greatly upset and puzzled until the day she looked out just as hawk came down for a free lunch.



thompsonx -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/15/2007 11:34:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

It's captialism in action (plus uninformed consumers who will in fact buy them, or not think twice about the price before they do), IMO.

I am all for capitalism, and there is also that adage: "Let the buyer beware" - but, when it comes to things like Koi, I for one, would tend to be one of those un-informed consumers, so sometimes I don't know what to make of it all, either.  

- Susan  

SusanofO:
Is it capitalism or free enterprise you are in favor of?  This looks more like  a case of free enterprise to me.
thompson



StellaByStarlite -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/16/2007 4:16:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My sister has a koi pond. she has koi of various sizes. She names them all after semi precious and precious gems. She just added Garnet the other day, which she spent 75 dollars on. This fish cost her about 75 dollars and they normally cost 500 bucks. These are Japanese koi though. They will eat out of your hand and get rather large.



Yeah, see, that's the thing... koi eventually get huge. Unless somebody has the room to put in a large pond, they're pretty impractical.
Some high-end koi are priced at $5,000 a pop. I just about had a heart attack when I found that out.



StellaByStarlite -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/16/2007 4:32:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


The thing about Koi is their lifespan (50 years) and the size they can grow make them valuable.  A 7 inch Koi is approximately one to two years old.

In real terms, this means that the store had to breed them, care for them, feed them, etc., for a year before putting them on the market.

After all that investment of time and money in caring for them, they have to ship them to the store in question, where a certain percentage of them die in transit, die in the showroom tank, etc., before they can ever be sold.

Compare this to a siamese fighting fish which lives 2 years and breeds in 4-6 months.  Mollies breed a month or so after they are born.

Sometimes there is a good reason something is expensive.

Sinergy


Oh, I know, lol. $13 isn't *that* bad compared to what you get get in return. I always feel thwarted when there's a high price I can't work my way around. We wanted koi specifically because they can survive our winters better. Goldfish need to be taken in or they'll freeze, I think.

The Mister quite correctly pointed out that a $50 spent on fish isn't a big deal after shelling out a few grand for the entire pond. Still, koi might not be practical considering the size of it.


Pros and cons, pros and cons
S



SusanofO -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/16/2007 4:40:02 AM)

thompsonx: I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe it is free enterprise, but I thought that capitalism operated in other countries, and between them, too (regardless sometimes of what they label themselves, except for maybe China, and a  few others, and China is growing in its capitalistic tendencies).

IMO, 'free-enterprise' takes place mostly within a capitalistic economic framework (and maybe that was your point?), but I am sure it can operate on a limited basis in nations where the base is socialistic or communistic as well (just much less so). It does in China (I read about it in TIME magazine).

People world-wide, are operating much more in a global economy these days, are they not?

Where are the Koi being shipped from? From one country, several, or just within the US?  

In any case, I am all in  favor of people being able to buy and sell Koi, at whatever price the market will bear (I am just not well-informed about what a "fair price" would be. That was my point).

- Susan



Twicehappy2x -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/16/2007 4:46:58 AM)

Good morning Stella, here is an idea to solve your fish problem. 
 
Just run an ad here on cm for a subbie who absolutely dreams of being kept as a fish. Think about it, you can paint him or her with liquid latex, tie up various body parts, add fins, a tail, tentacles, whatever.
 
In essence you would have a one of a kind designer fish. Change the colors and patterns to suit your mood or outdoor decor.



DiurnalVampire -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/16/2007 4:55:21 AM)

The problem with Koi is that if you dont plan properly and do your research, they will outgrow your space. Most people dont realize what sort of size or lifespan those fish have. They are expensive, but on the upside that does usually prompt people to doa bit more research into how to keep them and what they are getting into, rather than just dropping $15 -$20 on a single fish.
I prefer my betas.  They have an average lifespan of 2 years, and mine have lived anywhere from 3-7.

DV



juliaoceania -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/16/2007 2:09:06 PM)


quote:

The Mister quite correctly pointed out that a $50 spent on fish isn't a big deal after shelling out a few grand for the entire pond. Still, koi might not be practical considering the size of it.



My sister's pond is fairly good size. She told me that fish do not grow to exceed the size of their environment. I have never done any research on the matter to confirm or deny what she told me, but since she has had her pond for 5 years, worked out the kinks in it, even keeping the birds of prey away very artfully, I will take her word for it. Ponds have their own ecology, their own biotic existence that takes a lot of doing to get right. She has many plants, about 5 koi 3 of which she raised as babies, and she lost her gold fish to predators. She figured out how to keep too much algae out also. It is rather tricky and she is a housewife which gives her time for such endeavors.



Sinergy -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/16/2007 2:12:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twicehappy2x

Good morning Stella, here is an idea to solve your fish problem. 
 
Just run an ad here on cm for a subbie who absolutely dreams of being kept as a fish. Think about it, you can paint him or her with liquid latex, tie up various body parts, add fins, a tail, tentacles, whatever.
 
In essence you would have a one of a kind designer fish. Change the colors and patterns to suit your mood or outdoor decor.


Monty Pythons Pet Shop bit was even better.

Lop off the legs, glue on a tail.  Pop a hole through the neck with a snorkle.  Lop off the arms and attach flippers.  Grind down the forehead into a nice slope.  Paint the submissive blue.  Throw it in the water.

Instant SubFish.

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/16/2007 2:14:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

The Mister quite correctly pointed out that a $50 spent on fish isn't a big deal after shelling out a few grand for the entire pond. Still, koi might not be practical considering the size of it.



My sister's pond is fairly good size. She told me that fish do not grow to exceed the size of their environment. I have never done any research on the matter to confirm or deny what she told me, but since she has had her pond for 5 years, worked out the kinks in it, even keeping the birds of prey away very artfully, I will take her word for it. Ponds have their own ecology, their own biotic existence that takes a lot of doing to get right. She has many plants, about 5 koi 3 of which she raised as babies, and she lost her gold fish to predators. She figured out how to keep too much algae out also. It is rather tricky and she is a housewife which gives her time for such endeavors.


I used to have a business setting up, installing, designing, and cleaning fish tanks.

Fish grow to fit their environment and then stop.

It is higher animals like reptiles, hamsters, hippos, etc, that will outgrow their terrariums.

Sinergy



StellaByStarlite -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/16/2007 2:21:53 PM)

I think the general rule of thumb is.. 10 gallons of water for every inch of fish. We'll be building a rectangle shaped raised pond, so the volume won't be too hard to figure out.

This is a next year project, anyway, lol. Might as well just take things one step at a time.



thompsonx -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/16/2007 10:06:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

thompsonx: I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe it is free enterprise, but I thought that capitalism operated in other countries, and between them, too (regardless sometimes of what they label themselves, except for maybe China, and a  few others, and China is growing in its capitalistic tendencies).

IMO, 'free-enterprise' takes place mostly within a capitalistic economic framework (and maybe that was your point?), but I am sure it can operate on a limited basis in nations where the base is socialistic or communistic as well (just much less so). It does in China (I read about it in TIME magazine).

People world-wide, are operating much more in a global economy these days, are they not?

Where are the Koi being shipped from? From one country, several, or just within the US?  

In any case, I am all in  favor of people being able to buy and sell Koi, at whatever price the market will bear (I am just not well-informed about what a "fair price" would be. That was my point).

- Susan

Susan:
Many like to link capitalism and free enterprise...they are not the same and in many ways antithetical to one another.  Free enterprise presuposes a level playing field.  Capitalism seeks to tilt the playing field in favor of capital.  If capital can acquire slave labor in China and bring that product to the U.S, and sell it against the same product produced with labor that is protected from slavery  that tilts the playing field against free enterprise.  There are some who would argue that the abolition of slavery is a form of socialism because it deprives a man of his property ie: slaves and thus his advantage in the market because his only cost for labor is acquisiton and maintainence.
Capital also seeks an unlevel playing field in that they do not wish to negotiate with labor as a group but as an individual while they as capital negotiate as a group.  Since they have all the economic wherewithall they need for sustinance they can out wait labor until they are hungry enough to work for what they are offered.
I would be the first to admit that all the differences between capitalism and free enterprise cannot be dealt with in a few lines of type these are a few of the major differences. 
We outlawed slavery in our country so now the capitalist seek to exploit slavery in other countries and try to wrap it in the cloak of free enterprise.  The fact that someone who lives in Hati or China or Banglidesh is poverty striken and a U.S, manufacturer takes an americans job that pays a wage of twenty dollars an hour and hires ten or twenty or thirty people in a foriegn country and justifies it with the statement that they are better off at a dollar an hour than to starve is justification enough to take the job away from the greedy american worker...but capital still takes its cut off of the top.  CEOs are not outsourced only labor.
thompson



SusanofO -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/17/2007 8:01:11 AM)

thompsonx: Okay. Thanks for clarifying.  admire your analysis, but wonder how you'd ever "level" the "playing field" without destroying Capitalism in the US, which has existed since its inception? If t was a philosophical intellectual comparison between the two, that was great, though.  I do appreciate your explanation and POV.

- Susan  



thompsonx -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/17/2007 8:18:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

thompsonx: Okay. Thanks for clarifying.  admire your analysis, but wonder how you'd ever "level" the "playing field" without destroying Capitalism in the US, which has existed since its inception? If t was a philosophical intellectual comparison between the two, that was great, though.  I do appreciate your explanation and POV.

- Susan  

Susan:
Were it within my power I would destroy capitalism in this country in a heartbeat by the simple expedient of outlawing corporations.
A corporation is a ficticious entity that allows its owners to avoid personal responsibility for their actions.  It is only in the most egregious examples of fraud that the corporate veil can be pierced as in recent prosecutions of enron, adelphia et al.
It is entirely possible to have free enterprise without capitalism.
I am all in favor of free enterprise, it is corporate amerika that is not.
thompson



SusanofO -> RE: Pointless Observation of the Day (4/17/2007 1:15:06 PM)

thompsonx: Did somebody do something bad to you from  there? I understand your POV, but you're talking to a college Business major with an almost-MBA. I see it as having some advantages, myself. I realize there is crime, since it is run by human beings, and that CEOs are overpaid as a lot. I also think it's helped to ensure many in this counry totally avoid poverty - it's just that nobody ever talk about that part.

- Susan  



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