An Example to Follow?

An Example to Follow? (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> An Example to Follow? (4/13/2007 4:59:25 PM)
On Tuesday May 1st, President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela will appoint government official to take over the oil projects in the Orinoco River basin. The officials will be accompanied by soldiers. quote: Chavez has decreed that Petroleos de Venezuela SA, or PDVSA, will take a minimum 60 percent stake in four heavy-oil projects in the Orinoco River region and invited the six private companies operating there to stay on as minority partners. Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070413/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_oil_takeover_3 The oil companies are not just based in the US. Although Exxon, Mobil, Chevron, and Conoco have invested in projects; BP, France's Total SA, and Norway's Statoil ASA are also involved. In total these companies have invested $17 Billion. As noted by President Chavez; "I'm sure no transnational company is going to draw a shotgun, but we will go with the armed forces of the people." How nice! Who can/should complain? The 'Big Oil' companies and their investors deserve this because their $17 Billion investment was in actuality an exploitation of the people and resources of Venezuela. Taking over the oil fields follows the recent nationalization of Venezuela's telecommunications and electricity companies. Where should the same practice be used in the USA? Obviously start with USA oil and power companies, but why stop there? Wal-Mart seems to be exploitive and not operating in the best interests of many, but it is way too obvious. Let's brainstorm this idea. What if convenience stores were nationalized 7-11 could go back to being open only between 7:00 a.m. and 11:00 p.m. and not exploit workers by making them work all night! The government has done so well managing our Social Security funds why not put them in charge of all banking?! Is is possible to nationalize political parties? The result would have to be better than what we have!

subfever -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/13/2007 5:33:54 PM)
Once you clear all of the illusions, you come to realize that government's primary function is to serve as a buffer between the elite and the lower classes. It allows the concentration of wealth to flow into fewer and fewer hands over time.

petdave -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/13/2007 5:55:09 PM)
Great, now the glorious workers of the Venezuelan Socialist Paradise are going to be suffering from gasoline shortages on top of the food shortages [:D]

subfever -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/13/2007 6:02:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petdave Great, now the glorious workers of the Venezuelan Socialist Paradise are going to be suffering from gasoline shortages on top of the food shortages [:D] Not to worry. They won't be alone for too long, for the same problems are headed our way soon... [;)]

TheHeretic -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/13/2007 6:33:05 PM)
Lovely. How are the oil companies ever going to balance out a 17 billion $ loss??? And I paid $3.40 a gallon to get home from work today. Maybe it's time to just tell the caribou they are gonna have to cope and the surfers to deal with a less than perfect view?

subfever -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/13/2007 6:40:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Lovely. How are the oil companies ever going to balance out a 17 billion $ loss??? Oil companies losing billions? You're either jesting or smoking something other than tobacco there... [;)] quote: And I paid $3.40 a gallon to get home from work today. Maybe it's time to just tell the caribou they are gonna have to cope and the surfers to deal with a less than perfect view? Then again... maybe it's time to start focusing on the cause instead of the symptoms.

UtopianRanger -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/13/2007 7:21:52 PM)
quote: What if convenience stores were nationalized 7-11 could go back to being open only between 7:00 a.m. and 11:00 p.m. and not exploit workers by making them work all night! The government has done so well managing our Social Security funds why not put them in charge of all banking?! Is is possible to nationalize political parties? The result would have to be better than what we have! Merc….. You are guy here that mentions the word ''pragmatic'' quite often. And I consider you a very pragmatic thinker. However, the vibe I am getting from you here tells me that you seem to think /feel that Chavez’s ploy to nationalize its country’s national resources somehow betrays both the concept and idealism that made our country great in the first place. I disagree with you, brother. In getting back to another thread that centered on illegal immigration, I mentioned that if lettuce went to five bucks a head and apples were a dollar each or more, no one would purchase them. Some participants in thread agreed, some disagreed. A couple of days after that thread, I grabbed my new Cannon video camera from the house and took it to work with me. I then periodically began to interview customers in my business posing the same question: Would you pay five bucks for a head of lettuce and a dollar or more per apple? I then added an additional question in my interview that said: If you had to pay fifteen hundred bucks a piece for plane ticket from Oregon to LA so you could take your Children to Disneyland, would you pay it? Out of fifteen or so people interviewed so far, not one was willing to pay the high cost for fruits, vegetables or plane tickets. And to varying degrees they said they would either do with out or try to find another way {Grow their own and take vacations close to home}. When I finish with my series of interviews, I think I’m going to have Realone show me how to upload it to Youtube so I play it for all to see. What I am getting at here, brother, is, you can own a whole fleet of fancy Boeing 747’s and 727’s, and call it an airline, but if you’re charging fifteen hundred bucks a pop to fly from Oregon to LA, and you don’t have any customers capable of paying that much for a seat then you don’t have much of an airline, do ya? With gasoline for your cars and homes, and hydro-electric and various other types of power – We’re not in the same position and people don’t have a choice. Those two refined resources are essentials in life that everyone needs and has to have. In the big scheme of things, I make the simple argument that in perhaps just those two areas, it’s a tad bit short sighted to let them be-manipulated / fall-under-the control of a very small handful of potentially greedy people. I think its only ''pragmatic'' that oil, power and water {realistically vital to sustain human life} all be held in public trust for equal benefit for all people. And I don’t see how that could ever betray what made us great. - R

subfever -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/13/2007 9:47:38 PM)
quote: And I don’t see how that could ever betray what made us great. Just for clarification's sake, what is it that made us great?

Real0ne -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/13/2007 10:03:18 PM)
Banking has been nationalized since 1913, or whenever the federal reserve was created and we have a fed reserve that is accountable to NO-ONE and little do most people know that this country is over 65 trillion in thehole in off book records! We are so beyond bankrupt without a strong military and lots of guns we would be history years ago! Thats management! We no longer have rule by constitutional law as it was designed, we are now ruled with "private law" which flies under the "color" of law, which for those not familiar, looks like law, smells like law, feels like law but tastes like shit, which is to say we now are governed under international law moreso every passing day. Thats management! International is the way they are going, starting with bush's statement about the NWO, now changed to "global", remember the movie biodome? Think "global!" LOL its happening right under our noses and few people can connect the dots, but there are more. Nationalism is the wrong way to go, how many times do we need to prove that to ourselves, and internationalism is even worse, what can be worse that total consolidation of power, it is after all what hitler did and any other dictator for that matter. i suppose the real question is do we as a nation want to completely lose our sovereignity and be under whatever, cfr? trilateral? whatever, is that what we want for this country? oh and for the record i can see it as an emergency measure as long as sunset clauses are included, that is as far as ommerce is concerned, not as far as governing people are concerned.

Archer -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/13/2007 10:57:50 PM)
Wow very big difference in our definitions of "nationalized". OWNED by the government is nationalized. Regulated by the government is something less than nationalized. But one can always count on a few folks who somehow still believe that the government should own and control resources and that they will somehow remain benevolent and become good at managing something. Let them own something and you can count on it being abused and becomming the least efficient most beaurocratic mess possible. So we are supposed to tell those thousands of stockholders, Mutual find holders etc they will just have to accept the loss of their investment, they can wait for retirement and Social Security instead of the profits from their oil company stocks. Seam to forget that it's people individuals who own those "evil big oil companies"

Sinergy -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/14/2007 12:50:31 AM)
General reply to this thread. Kurt Vonnegut, in his final interview with Rolling Stone, likened the world to a drug addict. The drug is petrochemicals. The entire world is fighting over who gets the last rock of Crack, and when that is gone we are all up shit creek. The busses stop. The cars stop. The trucks that carry food stop. Power stops. He did not see modern society existing beyond petrochemicals. He inferred that he did not see humanity surviving past the end of petrochemicals. Electric companies can drastically raise prices, but since nobody has a job any more because their job relied on petroleum, nobody will pay those prices. Sinergy

UtopianRanger -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/14/2007 12:54:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: And I don’t see how that could ever betray what made us great. Just for clarification's sake, what is it that made us great? Individualism - A system with many cornerstones, which include vast amounts of private property and individual liberty, built by and for individuals - But all systems need checks and balances built into them. quote: But one can always count on a few folks who somehow still believe that the government should own and control resources and that they will somehow remain benevolent and become good at managing something. Let them own something and you can count on it being abused and becomming the least efficient most beaurocratic mess possible. My electric company is a coop, owned solely by the users with an elected board of directors who are paid a minimal salary for their management and decision making time. Whenever there's any type of salary increase or contract negotiations with the union, all users have one equal vote. There are no closed door meetings or ''inner sanctum'' to subvert the process. There is also no petty cash fund for the management to redecorate their office or visit some little-ass town in Europe to see how their power company works, at the expense of the rate-payer's backs. At least twice a year there's a surplus of money and the users with average usage don't even pay in those months. The system works great; because there are no greedy mother fuckers there to abuse it. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it. - R

Real0ne -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/14/2007 1:49:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy He did not see modern society existing beyond petrochemicals. He inferred that he did not see humanity surviving past the end of petrochemicals. Sinergy hell i am too old so it really wont matter to me, but it sounds like the young peple may want to invest in farming to grow corn huh :)

Real0ne -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/14/2007 1:54:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger My electric company is a coop, owned solely by the users with an elected board of directors who are paid a minimal salary for their management and decision making time. At least twice a year there's a surplus of money and the users with average usage don't even pay in those months. The system works great; because there are no greedy mother fuckers there to abuse it. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it. - R that is precisely why you will see me jump up and down on power consolidation. i think that power consolidation even on a state level is to freaking much and should be resolved to a county level. Only then can we get effectively mnanaged "everythign". that is in the interest of the people. its just simply to hard to take over a whole country when everyone has to accept the responsibility of running it.

meatcleaver -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/14/2007 2:21:18 AM)
There are certain industries that are better for public or cooperative management and certain parts of the economy for private management. Strategic industries like power, water, state resources such as oil, public transport should be managed by the state. As for licensing out work to private industry, that is fair enough but private money and private greed should not be allowed to rip off the state and its citizens. Just because private money has invested $17billion doesn't mean it has the right to exploit and profiteer from a nation's resources. Look at high technology and agriculture, not even the US allows these industries to do what they want even if they are owned by the private sector. It doesn't allow foreign ownership of ports and airports so the US really isn't that much into capitalism, more national socialism when it comes to what it sees as vital interests, it has a long way to go to catch up to Britain in fact. It is for this reasonI have to smile when Americans complain about countries such as Venezuala protecting its resources and nationalizing them.

Mercnbeth -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/14/2007 7:22:16 AM)
quote: You are guy here that mentions the word ''pragmatic'' quite often. And I consider you a very pragmatic thinker. However, the vibe I am getting from you here tells me that you seem to think /feel that Chavez’s ploy to nationalize its country’s national resources somehow betrays both the concept and idealism that made our country great in the first place. I disagree with you, brother. UR, Thanks regarding assigning 'pragmatic' to me! Here's what's missing to make my point regarding Chavez pragmatic. Who will follow the oil companies with research and development? What industry and/or corporation will put money into a region/county where the possibility to have their business nationalized is in play? What government does R&D better than the private sector? Even China uses and exploits the willingness of a capitalist industry/company for technology and intellectual resources. Regarding lettuce and the other issues you interviewed you took one thing out of the equation. In a capitalist market there can never be a condition where the goods are priced out of the range of the targeted customer. Ask a person from 1932 what would happen if they had to pay a $1.00 for a loaf of bread and they'd think they'd be starving. Prices and market conditions evolve. The illegal immigrant economy falsely under-prices goods but it also under-prices income; while at the same time overpricing taxes going to public services. Remove all the the cancer and what's left may be healthy or it may die. Why not let nature take its course under the pragmatic consideration of enforcing existing laws?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/14/2007 7:22:51 AM)
Here in the US, the "state" does not manage anything, they mismanage it. Government is the most ineffective way to manage just about anything. Employees that work because it is almost impossible to fire them, mediocrity is the norm, and there is not much concern for the citizen that calls and has a problem. Governments are non-profit entities, and that is often seen as "spend as much as you want and do not look at money coming in". I agree that power consolidation to the point of a monolpoly or near monopoly is equally as bad. Competition among the private sector leads to better prices, better service, innovation and many other things. This is why we have anti-trust laws and need a non-influential entity (meaning that politicians work to gain votes not make things better) to regulate it. Orion

meatcleaver -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/14/2007 12:22:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf I agree that power consolidation to the point of a monolpoly or near monopoly is equally as bad. Competition among the private sector leads to better prices, better service, innovation and many other things. This is why we have anti-trust laws and need a non-influential entity (meaning that politicians work to gain votes not make things better) to regulate it. The problem is that power companies (like all private companies) are about making profit for their share holders and that is who they are responsible to and not to wider society. It has been suggested that private companies act like psychopaths and have little conscience for the victims it creates in seeking its goal. Hence, oil (has well as other resources) has been a curse rather than a blessing for many underdeveloped countries who have corrupt governments who are happy to work in concert with corrupt western companies to the detriment of their own people. These western companies wouldn't dare act the way they do in western countries and if they did, they would be nationalised straight away. Though sadly many western politicians have shares in these exploitative companies that destroy lives in their pursuit of profits and all in our name. Also we have the problem of over consumption and pollution and hence climate change because the market is king. The market needs to be controled and just because our generation appears to be benefiting doesn't mean the market is working. If the market was worked, we wouldn't be destroying our habitat and living off our children's and grandchildren's futures. Some things are too damn importnat to be left to private companies and their blind pursuit of profit. Privatisation has left Britain with inferior and more expensive services than its neighbours. Private companies have signally failed to be better providers of services. The idea that private companies manage money better is propaganda because in many cases when put to the test they have proved a desaster.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/14/2007 12:46:16 PM)
It may be that way in Britian but in the US, the only successful government project I have seen, is the interstate system. Does anyone else in the US now of another successful government project? I also do not wish to see anymore power in the hands of the government. Ben Franklin was asked after the continental congress what he had given us, he said "A republic, if you can keep it." Orion

Sinergy -> RE: An Example to Follow? (4/14/2007 7:16:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy He did not see modern society existing beyond petrochemicals. He inferred that he did not see humanity surviving past the end of petrochemicals. Sinergy hell i am too old so it really wont matter to me, but it sounds like the young peple may want to invest in farming to grow corn huh :) We can either grow crops to eat. Or we can grow crops to make ethanol. Sinergy

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