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It's OK to be sadistic - 4/8/2007 2:57:15 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline 		Hi everyone,

Just had an interesting conversation with my boyfriend, who proclaims himself a heavy masochist and whom I'll at least grant that he can stand a lot of pain even if he doesn't like it at the moment. We talked about our desires to play next time we're together (less than 3 weeks now!) but in the past we've had some less than perfect scenes because our play styles are pretty different.

For example, I like to start off slow and warmup for 20-30 minutes with flogging and sensual stuff before moving to progressively heavier. I like to see my partner reacting some during this time so that I can gauge their level of enjoyment, tolerance, or pain. If my partner is not responding at all or to my liking, I generally think that it must not be enjoyable and I should change what I'm doing because I do want him to be enjoying it, really, I do. On the contrary, my boyfriend is used to an initial level (i.e. the warmup) already being fairly hard and for the progression to come much more quickly and for the scene to progress to a much more intense level than I have really ever played. We have been together 9 months now but true s/m play has really been a minimal part of the relationship. We both want to delve into it more but everytime I actually get to where the play would happen I feel somehow less able to really let it rip than I thought. I end up reverting to my normal pattern of the slow warmup, etc. He doesn't respond, seems to be bored or not enjoying it and I get frustrated. So we finally had the conversation where he told me that what he wants and needs is for me to not be afraid to step it up. He will react, will make noises, and will enjoy it, but I have to hit a level that takes him there and to be honest it's a level of pain intensity that I am not used to someone being OK with though theoretically I desire it too.

I want to, intellectually, I really want to but I know that I'm still struggling with being able to let my inner sadist out. I know we've all been there. And it's so much easier for me when playing with someone who remains aroused/hard during play so I can use that as a gauge and also alternate heavy pain with pleasurable sexual touches. But since for this one, his sexuality is VERY separate from s/m play, there's no going by that and trying to incorporate sexy touching into play doesn't do a thing to add to his experience.

I'm just looking for suggestions, anicdotes, whatever, from those that have been here in the past or are here now.

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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/8/2007 3:22:00 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		First, who's the dominant when you're being the sadist? That's an important point to decide. Once that's decided, then BOTH of you need to work to make it a fulfilling experience for the Dom. If that means he needs to learn to react in ways that turn you on, no matter what you're doing to him, then he needs to try and do that. He'd do that if you guys were just having sex, right? No different in a scene. If he needs to "endure" some light stuff in order for you to enjoy it, then he's going to have to endure just like he has to endure the pain later.

Once you get over that hurdle, I'm betting you'll feel more comfortable with what you're doing...and can ramp it up faster over time...and can ramp it up harder. If you choose to do so.

Remind him that you need foreplay, just like in vanilla sex. This is foreplay. If he's a good lover, he'll care about that.

Master Fire


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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/8/2007 3:34:26 PM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline 		DominaSmartass,
I know all too well where you are coming from, it's a limit you have to deal with inside your own headspace.  For me I was concerned about letting the sadistic side loose a little more, almost fearful that it would transform me into some Evil being. The thing is if you want to please your sub/slave or take play to another level, you will need to break past this barrier.  Just keep in check with your sub/slave if what you are doing is too much.  Remind them of using the safeword if it becomes too much.  You will have to place trust in your submissive, this means you trust them to use the safeword.  Trust them to answer truthful, when you ask them if they can take more or not.  You have to find Trust and faith in yourself that you are not going to be somehow transformed into an Evil human being.  Trust in faith in your submissive that they can take it.  You also have to keep a check on it being sane.  If you find you are taking chunks of flesh off with your flogger, you've probally gone way too far! LOL....

You submissive may want to feel flogger pain to the point it leaves heavy marks on his back or body.  You will have to test the limits and apply some common sense as well.  Talk about these things in more detail ahead of time with your submissive. 

One more thing to mention!  As you push past your own limits to what you can do to another human being that you care about.  Be prepared for the headspace you will be in after scene play, you might find yourself totally blown away by what you just did.  Just be prepared for a form of possiable Domme mental aftercare.   



< Message edited by WhiplashSmile -- 4/8/2007 3:38:53 PM >

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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/8/2007 5:13:54 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

First, who's the dominant when you're being the sadist?


Well, me, duh! Right? I think... lol. Good point. The finer points of our relationship as far as who's in charge of what and to what degree are very easy for me up until it comes to play. We seem to want different things out of play (I want the sub to relax and go to subspace, he bases his ideas on experience with a Dom who doesn't "believe in" subspace, or believe in allowing to happen.) I think what we need to do is actually work on changing that idea and having him start to conform more to what I wants than what he thinks should happen.


quote:

If that means he needs to learn to react in ways that turn you on, no matter what you're doing to him, then he needs to try and do that.

I dunno, seems a little insincere to me. If being beaten lightly to medium doesn't do anything for him I don't particularly want him to pretend. I'd like to see some response, even just deep steady breaths and sighs to show that something is relaxing (like a good rythmic flogging) but standing there like a rock? Not working for me...

quote:

He'd do that if you guys were just having sex, right? No different in a scene.

I'm not sure what you mean. When we have sex of any type there is no need for him to pretend, his reactions, his facial expressions, his noises, are exactly what I want them to be and in line with what I am hoping to cause.

quote:

If he needs to "endure" some light stuff in order for you to enjoy it, then he's going to have to endure just like he has to endure the pain later.
quote:



It's not that he's not willing to do this. It's just that in the past, his non-reactiveness has lead me to believe that he's not enjoying it at all and that in turn makes me feel like it's pointless cause I don't enjoy beating a dead blob of a bottom. This new information from him tells me that at least it's not that he is not enjoying the earlier stuff, just that if I want to get a reaction from him I need to not be afraid to start harder and faster.

quote:

Remind him that you need foreplay, just like in vanilla sex. This is foreplay. If he's a good lover, he'll care about that.


This part is very true. If one thing is certain it is that he values my enjoyment and pleasure over his own and derives his from mine most of the time. So posing it in terms of "this is what I need to do to get myself in the right frame of mind to go heavier" might work better than anything else. I still have yet to prove that I can hit hard enough to really phase him but I'll hopefully get a chance next time we're together. Thanks Master Fire for your advice, as always.

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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/8/2007 5:34:49 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I'm with you, on some levels.  I just came back from playing with a casual partner (not the relationship you have, but.... ) and experienced some of these same things last night.
 
Letting the Sadist out is does seem like it is strange, at first.  The play partner I have right now is a Masochist (sometimes, a downright smart-assed masochist) and that's encouraging Me to develope in this area.  It' a bit tough with some of My rustier skills, but it is coming along.  I look at it as something of a process.  I understand the thought behind having reservations about unleashing the monster because of concerns that you can't lock it back up.  I'm focusing a lot on the fact that I also need aftercare, and it helps Me a lot to realize that, when the scene is over, I'm still a sensual, compassionate woman.
 
The second item is something that I have in common with you as well.  In My play partner's history, there wasn't any sexual activity until after the scene is over.  I, on the other hand, have always been One to alternate erotic, sensual touching between strikes to enhance the senses.  I've found that what's working for Me here is to change that to things like running My nails along his back or delicately play along his neck.  Pretty much the same, I just skip the genitalia.  Truthfully, it's still working for Me. 
 
The whole thing is still very much in the beginning stages, so I don't know if this helped any, but hopefully it will at least reassure you that you're not necessarily alone in the challenge.  Good luck to you.

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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/8/2007 6:01:24 PM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		that comment you made about seeing him hard & how it lets you know that you are being effective sounds almost like what a woman would say if she was under the direction of satisfying her vanilla lover

Break away from this sense that sex & sexual release is the goal of your personal interaction with your partner

He is obviously not gaging your performance on the stiffness of his member. He is eager to have the other sex organ stimulated & believe the cock can't handle that input.



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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/8/2007 6:19:08 PM   
Smythe


Posts: 369
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline 		It seems as though one problem is that you see your play sessions as sexual encounters, and he sees the SM interaction as separate from sex.  You are combining the two and he wants them separate.  You want two different things in your encounters.
 
The most common (and useless) answers to this are 1.  you are the Domme, make it go the way you want it.  and 2.  He is not pleasing you so get rid of him.
 
What you seem to have is a complicated relationship that involves love passion and DS.  In this situation, all you can do is discuss your differences and try to compromise in a way that pleases you both.
 
I just want to add that I am sympathetic to your situation.  My sub stays hard through most of what we do, but when I get sadistic and more pain is involved, he might lose his erection.  I am never happy when that  happens and often change what I am doing to get him hard again.  I would not be happy continuing to play with a male who wasn't erect.
Smythe

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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/8/2007 6:23:39 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		I agree that it's extremely frustrating to beat a post. And, his former training seems to certainly be getting in the way. It doesn't necessarily have to be replaced, but certainly new stuff between the two of you can be added to his "training pattern" collection in his head. he reacts one way with one person and another with you.

Does he like it when you do gentle things at other times outside of scenes? Simply remind him that you are deciding to be gentle because that's what YOU like. And, you want him to like it to. He then has a decision to make: he can fake it, he can learn to genuinely like it (which might have to start off as faking a bit) or he can decide he's never going to like it. Being that he wants to please you, I'm thinking the second path is gonna happen.

To help him learn to react....have him breathe in a certain pattern while you flog him....you get to see/hear him react and he gets to concentrate on something. Or have him count strokes and say "Thank you" after every dozen. or so. You might have to first distract him from being hyper aware before he'll be able to let go of it.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
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BDSM How-To Books

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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/9/2007 8:18:01 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		There is something in me that I know would keep me from being able to dole out heavy impact play too.
Funny thing is I'm a sub who enjoys heavy impact play immensely under the right circumstances.
I know how playing lighter than you prefer is very frustrating.
It's like the biggest tease of all time to only play fluffy for me.

I've thought about things from the Top Dom side a lot lately as my last Sir was brand new when we started dating.
It took him about 6 sessions to cross the line and spank hard enough to leave marks on me.
We discussed how he felt his whole life people taught him it was wrong and not socially acceptable to hit a woman, we talked about how he was afraid he'd really hurt me if he just let go and swung a home run forced hit, we talked about how he'd feel about himself if he bruised me and many avenues of why he was not comfortable with turning up the heat.
What ended up helping him was the same thing that seems to be being presented to you.
Knowing I wanted it, knowing I enjoyed it, and knowing he wanted to feel that level of play with me eventually helped him muster through it.
Once he'd played pretty hard with me once he actually got really good at playing hard really fast.
LOL I had to beg for mercy like the third time we played hard and ask him to go a little lighter on me.
In time either you'll decide it's too stress inducing for you, or you'll also get beyond your own pre-conceived limits.
Either way try to have fun and find a blending point that can work satisfactorily for you both.
Maybe if impact pain play isn't for you you could find other extreme things you will like to do.
Good luck to you,
suzanne

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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/9/2007 9:09:34 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Has it not occurred to you that his "standing there like a rock" is his way of remaining in control?  He's not submitting to you, he's defying you.  He's quite literally showing you he can take anything you can dish out and remain unaffected.  And you, you're worrying about it. 
quote:

If my partner is not responding at all or to my liking, I generally think that it must not be enjoyable and I should change what I'm doing because I do want him to be enjoying it, really, I do.

If you aren't careful, you'll end up the submissive and him the dom... but then again maybe it should be that way if you can't handle being in control, if you can't learn to take control.

If you want him to submit, to relax, you need to do two things.  First, quit worrying whether he has a good time or not and put the emphasis back on him serving you... on doing what you want to do.  Second, put him face down on the floor, put your foot on his neck and keep him there until he relaxes.  Do nothing, say nothing, until he relaxes.  Do not allow him to move, do not otherwise touch him or play with him until he relaxes.  Once he relaxes, then you can move to other activities.  The minute he tenses up... back to the floor, foot on his neck, until he relaxes.  Rinse and repeat until he finally learns to really relax, to really let go and stop resisting.  This isn't about anger or being cruel to him... its about submission.  He uses being tense, rigid, "like a rock" as way or retaining control... of literally being unyeilding.  By forcing him to relax and remain relaxed you're taking that away from him and until you do, he won't really submit to you.

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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/9/2007 9:23:58 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline 		I have had this talk with M.  He isn't very sadistic and I am a masochist.  I love it as part of our sexual play, but it's hard sometimes for him to really let go on me.  We have talked about it a lot, and we are working on stepping that part of it up a bit.  It's okay for me to bruise, to have marks, to cry..but it's hard for him to see me like that.  He is getting better, and is learning to not let it get to him and go on with what he is doing.  I think that he does enjoy it, there is just this part of him that loves me and doesn't want to see me hurt.  I have tried to teach him that it's not hurt, it's the most wonderful pleasure he can give me. 

Once someone can realize what they are giving someone else, what kind of space it puts them in, I think it's a lot easier to take that block down and give it to them.

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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/9/2007 2:57:50 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
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quote:

Has it not occurred to you that his "standing there like a rock" is his way of remaining in control?  He's not submitting to you, he's defying you.  He's quite literally showing you he can take anything you can dish out and remain unaffected.  And you, you're worrying about it. 
quote:

If my partner is not responding at all or to my liking, I generally think that it must not be enjoyable and I should change what I'm doing because I do want him to be enjoying it, really, I do.

If you aren't careful, you'll end up the submissive and him the dom... but then again maybe it should be that way if you can't handle being in control, if you can't learn to take control.


Well, I appreciate your response, but I don't think this is the case at all.  This boy is one of the most submissive I've ever met, yet the meat of it usually occurs outside of any "scene" context. I play at S/M because it's fun for me and my partner and I only find it fun if I know my partner does. That's just the type of top I am. Doesn't mean he has to love every minute of it but I have to know that overall he wants to be there.  This one is just cut from a different mold than any other I've been with, plain and simple. Our styles are clashing which is super frustrating given the near perfection of the rest of the relationship.  Maybe you're right about him not actually submitting, but he's not my "sub" so I don't expect submission, per se.  I believe that it can't be forced and will come truly in time if it's meant to be.  But I don't see the way he acts when we play as a sign of not submitting and also,  he isn't being tense really, he's just "being."  He has told me in our last big conversation regarding play that his staying still and focussing inwards is just the way he processes the pain.  He will get vocal and reactive if it's hard enough, I've seen it. 

Master Fire probably has the best insight since she's seen him bottom to his previous dom before. I thank you all for your continued responses, all given me something to think about even if I don't agree.


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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/9/2007 3:38:01 PM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline 		I'm doing a little introspection here, since I do myself do enjoy having a flogger taken to my own back.  I myself will try to test my own limits, and I will use my own headspace.  Now, those times when I was not able to go there.. yes, I actually was vocal in terms of  "Ouchhh! That Hurt.. Do it again".    I find it easier to go into headspace when there is little next to none, verbal interaction.  Now there are times when I've simply refused to let myself into this headspace, other times.. I can get into this headspace.   Also, I am capable of resisting sexual impulses in this same form of head space, where things that normally turn me on and make me horney as Hell... I can simply block out and resist.   I have had a few test this one out.   This is all coming from a Dom mindset though.  It's where I have the will power and control over certain things.   The one thing I have a difficult time controlling my reaction to, is tickling still.   I can deal with pain and sexual arrosal, but not tickling.  

Perhaps you should include tickling in your warm up, where it makes his body more sensitive and receptive to physical stimulation first, then hit him up with some pain.   He appears to have control over pain and sexual arrosal based on things you shared in your post.   However, is he weak at control over being tickled?  If so, you might want to use this for a warm up! Bet you'll see a reaction then!  Don't let him off easy by letting him go into his head space!  Assume control over this as being a top, when he goes into this head space he is really fighting you!  He's trying to maintain control.  This is why you don't even see signs of sexual arrosual from him.

I'm kind of going on the it Take one to know one theory here!  LOL...  Again, I stress I'm a Dom and I'm pulling out a page from my life to share with you.   Because I'm one of those Sado/Maso types myself.








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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/9/2007 4:00:28 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass

I want to, intellectually, I really want to but I know that I'm still struggling with being able to let my inner sadist out. I know we've all been there. And it's so much easier for me when playing with someone who remains aroused/hard during play so I can use that as a gauge and also alternate heavy pain with pleasurable sexual touches. But since for this one, his sexuality is VERY separate from s/m play, there's no going by that and trying to incorporate sexy touching into play doesn't do a thing to add to his experience.

I'm just looking for suggestions, anicdotes, whatever, from those that have been here in the past or are here now.


You know... I don't understand this issue to be honest.  You make the comment that "I know we've all been there" ... but I haven't been there.  I don't know what it means to be struggling with letting out that inner sadist out.  My issues have always been learning and growing on doing what I do as best as I can. 

Secondly, SM and my sexuality are actually two different concepts that can co-exist but not always.  SM at it's core for me is about causing pain.  I am not trying to guage if the person is enjoying what I am doing or not.  I am only concerned if they will be harmed by the torment that I am causing them and then enjoying the causing of that torment.  I appreciate that a person can only withstand so much pain and it is watching for triggers that I will decide if they can with stand more or if play is done.  It is through alot of communication with those that I play with that I learn about what they can endure or how they have felt about a past play.  I use one rule with my play.. IF in doubt of their state to continue ... I stop. 

In the end thou, it is about accepting you for you.  I don't doubt what I do... I am very content and happy with what I am doing.  I am a sadist... An Ethical Sadist!  Until you accept who you are.. you will never let that inner sadist out.  I think it is important to appreciate that I accept what I do so easily because I have my own ethics.  My ethics are not to someone else's standards.  I have taken a good look at my own beliefs and values.  What is there... is MINE.  I took ownership of them.  I am responsibility for what I believe and value.  I suggest that you look at your own Ethics.  Decide for yourself what is there that is yours and what is not.  Be clear to yourself what our ethics and values are.  Then live to them!!!


Editted to add...

I just had an after thought here realizing why I have never add this struggle that so many other Tops/Sadists seem to deal with.

My sadistic awareness actually came after my poly awareness.....  In dealing with the ethical and moral challenges that came with moving from a Monogamist upbringing and society to my own acceptance of a Poly Lifestyle... I need to revaluate my own ethics, beliefs and values.  In effect, I did all the ground work before my sadist desires started to knock on the door so to speak.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 4/9/2007 4:06:37 PM >

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RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/9/2007 4:53:02 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass

This one is just cut from a different mold than any other I've been with, plain and simple. Our styles are clashing which is super frustrating given the near perfection of the rest of the relationship. 

That explains part of what I was perceiving in your post.  You're dealing with a situation you aren't used to and its left you puzzled.  I'll keep that in mind in my remarks.

quote:

Maybe you're right about him not actually submitting, but he's not my "sub" so I don't expect submission, per se.

Doesn't really matter whether he's "yours" or not... if he's "subbing" to you, then for the duration he should be submitting.  Now, let me explain why I think he isn't.

What you described was someone physically very tense.  That's body language and it indicates he's tense, he's resisting, prepared to defend himself, unyielding, etc.  Kind of reminds me of a kid about to get a paddling.  Some of that is just tensing up to resist the pain... as he said, process it.  He's not enjoying it, he's measuring himself against it.  Rather than surrendering to what's happening, he's tensing up to see how much he can take without it effecting him... it is, at the very least, pride.  Could be something more, and that's something for you to watch for and observe.

You want him more relaxed and more responsive, which means you've got to get him to stop tensing up.  You have to change his frame of mind.

This is why I recommended putting him on the floor with your foot on his neck.  I'll explain exactly why and see if that gives you more food for thought.

If it were me, I'd have him kneel on the floor, hands behind his back, bend over so his head is close to the floor and then I'd rest one foot on his neck.  No explanation, no reason why, just the simple instruction not to move.  Then I'd get comfy in a chair and read a book.  In this position he's uncomfortable, his field of vision is restricted by his position so the amount of distractions are reduced.  The fact I don't further interact also reduces mental distractions...he's left alone with his thoughts essentially, its focusing his attention on his situation.  By not explaining, by not interacting I'm giving him nothing to argue against... verbally or mentally.  He has two choices, accept it or mentally fight it until he wears himself out... and either way he eventually relaxes.  Either way, sooner or later you'll feel his body begin to relax under your foot...which is there both to establish a position of dominance, but also allow you to covertly monitor his body language.  When a person begins to relax, their neck is generally one of the first parts of the body to do so.  We relax when we change our frame of mind to an open and accepting mode.  We tense up when we are defensive and closed off.  Simple body language.

This is why every time he tenses up you return him to the same position and repeat, each time waiting til he relaxes.  Eventually the brain gets it... relax and accept.  When that happens, and it may take some time, you'll have a different experience flogging him and I'd say he'll probably be more responsive to even a milder flogging... because he's no longer fighting it, no longer resisting, no longer testing himself... you've gotten him to a place mentally where he's accepting and opened himself to the experience instead of tensing up and closing off from it.

Now, in this last post you said he wasn't tense, earlier you indicated he was.  Given what I've written above, think about his body language and what you've seen, then using what I said as a guide, gauge how tense or relaxed he was.  Think about his posture, how rigid was he, etc. try to read his body language and see what that is telling you about his frame of mind.  Next time you play with him watch for it, watch his neck muscles.  If you see him tense up, try what I suggest, see what happens.

And as I said, this isn't about being angry or mean or bitchy with him, that's the wrong kind of energy.  You want to be calm, quiet, confident... just calmly put him on the floor with your foot on his neck as if it were the most natural thing in the world... don't interact with him til he relaxes.  That sets the condition that if he wants your attention he has to be relaxed, every time you repeat this it reinforces that.  Which is what it sounds like you want, you want him relaxed, open and responsive.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/9/2007 5:57:57 PM   
PairOfDimes


Posts: 324
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline 		Like MasterFire wrote, determine where the authority lies. The top is not necessarily the dominant. Indeed, you might have egalitarian SM energy--in which case it's structured more or less like "normal" sex.

You've used the language of fear--"to not be afraid to step it up." Are you not playing hard and fast because you're afraid or otherwise hesitant? Or, are you not doing that because it's not what you want? Figuring out whether you are happy with your langorous play style might go a long way toward your increased satisfaction.

Then, figure out your goals as a top and pain-giver. Do you take more pleasure in your actions--in the sensation of flesh reacting under knuckles, or the vibration of a cane stroke through the implement and into your hand? Or, do you take more pleasure in observing the bottom's reactions? If the former, then something about giving gentle impact must give you direct pleasure. As with all small sexual incompatibilities, I imagine you and your partner could resolve this--you might use "tougher" implements, so that you don't perceive much difference in the actual work of your muscles. Placing your partner in a difficult pose, or in a pose that makes the impact more intense, could have a similar effect--your goal is to augment his sensations while keeping your sensations mostly the same. If it's his reactions that you want, then you get to find out what reactions turn you on, and what reactions make you want to continue to play (these may not be the same), and inform your partner of this.

Weighing in on the insincerity issue: We express ourselves in order to engender responses from other people, as a rule. That's why it's a form of communication. If he wants to make you hit him harder, and in your language, "That feels so good" translates to "Hit me harder," he should learn to say "That feels so good." Telling your partner that expressing pleasure will encourage you to hit harder seems ethical and efficient. It's not really different from saying, "Telling me you love me is nice, but doesn't really affect me. However I feel very loved when you help around the house in ways that directly affect my comfort." I used language metaphors above, and that seems quite appropriate.

I'm not sure what to tell you about using erection as a way of gauging enjoyment, except don't. A man of my acquaintance mentioned that he was just coming to realize that he enjoyed doing physical, sensual things that didn't get him hard, and that a flagging erection didn't necessarily signal flagging interest. What if you thought of SM play as nonsexual touching? If you like to snuggle, that might be one way to spin it. If you like sports--especially contact sports--that's another option.

Happy hitting!

Monica

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/9/2007 8:12:28 PM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		> I have had this talk with M.  He isn't very sadistic and I am a masochist. 
> I love it as part of our sexual play, but it's hard sometimes for him to
> really let go on me.  We have talked about it a lot, and we are working
> on stepping that part of it up a bit.  It's okay for me to bruise, to have
> marks, to cry..but it's hard for him to see me like that.  He is getting
> better, and is learning to not let it get to him and go on with what he
> is doing.  I think that he does enjoy it, there is just this part of him
> that loves me and doesn't want to see me hurt.  I have tried to teach
> him that it's not hurt, it's the most wonderful pleasure he can give me. 

When I "top," I don't see my partner as the person I love.  I objectify
her body, use her body as a sex toy, and pretend in my mind she is 
some generic female.    After a session, I will feel guilt, even though
I know I gave her pleasure, and I will hold her, carress her, and care
for her welts. 

As a switch, this is the way I would prefer to be topped.  I wouldn't
want a female who cares about me, to get pleasure from hurting
the person they know I am.  I would rather they imagine I am
someone I am not, like a rapist or a sex offender.

I subscribe to Paul MacLean's triune brain.  He claims humans
have three different brains: a primitive brain (archipallium), an
emotional brain (paleo-mammalian brain), and a thinking brain
(neopallium).  

During sexual activity, I allow my primal archipallium to come
out and play.  I indulge my id.  After sexual activity, my emotional
and thinking brain return to power.

Even when my archipalium is out and about, my emotional and
thinking brains are both in background watching things, making
sure things don't get out of hand. 

I would call the archipallium Mr. Hyde, and the emotional and
thinking part of humans, Dr. Jeckell.  In normal people, Dr. Jeckell
is always in control.  In sick people, the archipallium is stronger
than the palemammallian brain and the neopallium combined. 

That is why I believe some people can't control themselves.
Alcohol abuse, substance abuse, food abuse, nicotine, gambling,
cutting, sex, bdsm are all cravings of the archipallium.  The
archipallium craves endorphins and adrenalin.   Dopamine
helps control and regulate the archipallium.  When dopamine
levels plummet, the paleomammalian and neopallium can lose
control of the archipallium.

Intellectuals identify with their neopallium.  "Party animals"
identify with archipallium.  The rest identify with their
palleomammalian brain.

When people say they are conflicted or can't make up their
mind, it is often because their three brains have different
objectives.  It takes time for the brain to sum vector quantities
and perform tensor analysis.

"your mileage may vary"

Okay, this is just my hypothesis.  I don't expect anyone to
see things the way I do. 

I know many tops think of the pleasure they are giving their
bottoms, as they top.  But when I top, I like to imagine I am
really inflicting pain, not pleasure.  I like bottoms who
either pretend not to enjoy pain, or who really don't enjoy
pain but endure it for my pleasure. 

I seperate sexual sadism from emotional sadism.  I get
pleasure from inflicting erotic pain, but I could never
stand to see another human being suffer emotionally.

I like when a bottom curses me, struggles, squirms,
and fights back.  But I can't take anyone crying or
showing real emotional hurt.  As soon as I seen anyone
hurting emotionally, I become a comforter.  I get no
pleasure from saying things that hurt emotionally, nor
would I ever intentionally say something that hurts
someone emotionally.  Though there are times I can
be dense, and not realize how something I say
might really cause discomfort or pain.  When this
happens, I really, really feel bad.

Cheers,
Michael

< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 4/9/2007 9:05:29 PM >

_____________________________



(in reply to sleazybutterfly)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/10/2007 7:26:40 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

that comment you made about seeing him hard & how it lets you know that you are being effective sounds almost like what a woman would say if she was under the direction of satisfying her vanilla lover

Break away from this sense that sex & sexual release is the goal of your personal interaction with your partner

He is obviously not gaging your performance on the stiffness of his member. He is eager to have the other sex organ stimulated & believe the cock can't handle that input.



This somewhat sums it up for me as many times there is a core misunderstanding that if the actual acts done to a submissive must equate direct pleasure all the while forgetting that often a submissive’s pleasure is taking what the dominant dishes out for their enjoyment and feeding off of that whether sexual, mentally or both.

I have seen that mental limit in many dominants. Whether naturally self imposed, taught to them from other dominants, books, cyber or their partners that the gauge is the other person’s physical pleasure. Just search subspace in this forum and see how the focus on impact play is focused on the submissive I would think it can be easy to rely on this aspect as a guide when dealing with something such a sadist might feel while trying to deal with what society teaches.

In my search for a Master, and I am not remotely masochistic, I am drawn to sadists. The physical acts give me zero pleasure but seeing the pleasure my Master takes in doing them to me and him knowing it brings me no pleasure is a huge/critical thing for me in my life. The dominant that needs to know at all times that it is good for me would never ever work for me.

My suggestion for sadist in this situation was to talk to your submissive and just progress slowly. This is a trust situation that is often just thought about from the submissive side but is for a dominant as well. Too indulge in your sadism, must know your partners signs of limits and also trust your submissive to use their safe word and talk about things so you can make it a positive experience for everyone and good does not have to mean sexual or some deep emotional experience.



_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to MstrssPassion)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/10/2007 8:03:09 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe you need more positive feedback when doing SM.

While I have to echo KnightofMists here in that I've never had the same issue as you, DominaSmartass, I have known people and talked to people who have. They told me that it really helped them to get encouragement and positive feedback as they were doing SM. That stream of reassurance helped them figure out how to read their partner's body language and feelings better and that seemed to help them get over the need to have longer build up or do more intense things.

I probably have a bit of the opposite problem in that if I'm feeling more sadistic, build up is very short indeed. My slave just sucks it up and that just likely encourages me more.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: It's OK to be sadistic - 4/10/2007 12:53:13 PM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		When we first began, my Master had this "interesting" little quirk. He didn't like, want or appreciate dealing with the way someone else had played with me. So...(here's the part no one likes)...

He didn't play with me. Nope. Not hardly at all. I chafed. I cried. I wondered if he didn't want me or otherwise. And while when I brought this to his attention, he'd do the minimal amount of something so that I knew he DID want to be with me, it was absolutely nothing compared to what I used to do.

And believe it or not, he did this for a YEAR. Yep... a full damn year!! *grin*

And at the end of that year, when he played with me, how I used to play was completely out of my head. He was firmly in control because if he wasn't... if I tried to assert how I'd done things before.. what others had done to me and with me... he'd stop - and I darn well knew it.

At the end of that year, his warm up was wonderful - it didn't matter whether it was harder or softer than the person before him. It was him. And he'd spent that year making sure of my connectedness with him and building my dependence on him regardless of the play. At the end of that year, I was "brand new" to what he was doing. Any experience, any ability I had to withstand greater and greater degrees of intensity were completely gone. I was starting out at square one again, and this time, it was HIS square one.

The process he used is not for everyone. It almost was more than I could manage - except for one little thing, which was really a huge thing. We matched on every single point I'd been looking for during my search for the right person. And when I was ready to throw in the towel on more than one occassion, I remembered the years of loneliness and decided that there was no place I could be happier - play or no play. Along the way, I surely learned what the word "submission" meant, because I could never guarantee that if I did ABC, that he'd do DEF... quite to the contrary. The ONLY thing I needed to do was submit. When I did - and when that year was up...we played. We played hard. We've never ever gone back to before then again. Our play has increased in intensity since then and even though we often see the person I used to be with, he is absolutely no where in my mind. The only person that's there is my Master - as it should be.

juliet

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 20
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