Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Phelps and Free Speech


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Phelps and Free Speech Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Phelps and Free Speech - 4/4/2007 4:17:31 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		We just had a documentary on BBC about pastor Phelps of the "God hates fags" and "God hates America" fame - his church is the one that pickets US soldiers' funerals.

I have to say, I'm utterly amazed. If someone did this sort of thing in the UK, they'd be arrested and charged before the paint dried on their placards.

On top of that I found it really disturbing, the way the church was involving their children in these public protests, and exposing them to danger from the adverse reactions of bypassers. One boy was hit by a missile from a passing car. In the UK, all those children would be taken into social care PDQ.

I'm all for free speech, but I just found it incredible the way this church was going about expressing itself in such a manifestly offensive way, intruding into others' grief at funerals, and endangering small children in the process who had no idea what was going on.

Theyre entitled to their ideas and opinions of course - two of which are that everyone but them is going to hell and that theyre not out to win people over - which kind of suggests that theyre simply out to cause offence, which they do, regularly.

We have a line in the sand in the UK with regards to free speech; it basically amounts to using that right with responsibility and not using it to generate hatred against any group. Does the same not apply in the US? If not, should it given the actions of this group?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 9:30:09 AM   
MSUgirl


Posts: 16
Joined: 3/4/2007
Status: offline 		I agree, its completly wrong and quite honestly, it discusts me

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 9:42:58 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		All Christian religions get treated with kid gloves over here. Few if any truly support them protesting like that but while the left and right will both legislate where and how you can protest as long as you evoke God then there is fear on how to handle situations like these that are truly despicable.

We are a country that struggles mightily with concepts like moderation, rational discourse and the concept of treat others like you would want to be treated.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to MSUgirl)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 11:40:23 AM   
ToGiveDivine


Posts: 650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

We have a line in the sand in the UK with regards to free speech; it basically amounts to using that right with responsibility and not using it to generate hatred against any group. Does the same not apply in the US? If not, should it given the actions of this group?

E


EGAD!!  You want to give the uber-liberals here an excuse to riot?  Everyone in the U.S. has the right to say what they want, when they want because any legal intervention by any group to suppress any spoken thought will be an outright infringement on their rights and if you legislate what an ultra-nutty religious group can say or not say, then the same rules would apply to the uber-liberals and we can't have that.

The solution used by the uber-libs is to verbally attack and shout down anyone they disagree with so that instead of taking away free speech, you thwart free listening.  So, if someone is saying something you don't like - yell, scream, call them names, jump up and down, throw a tantrum, etc. so no one else can hear what they have to say (even if the other people want to hear what they have to say).

I have found that the groups of people that preach the most about tolerance are actually the most intolerant people around, the ones the preach the most about fairness are the most unfair, and the ones that preach the most about keeping their freedom to do ?????? are the ones that will trample your freedoms if they conflict with what they want.

We, as a people, tend to forget that there are two sides to everything and that the solution to any problem is somewhere closer to the middle - it's called balance and if you don't have balance, then you fall.

I believe there is a way to have lower taxes, a robust economy, clean air / water / land, equal-opportunity and still have the ability to be individuals.  Problem is, the fringe groups (both sides) are so militant and will absolutely NOT compromise on anything that we have no hope to improve.

The mooks in this world that think their political party has all the answers and that the other political party is the root of all evil should take a REAL good look at their party and realize it ain't Dems vs. Repubs ... it's us against politicians.

Soapbox is now open to the next speaker ...

_____________________________

These are my opinions - which may differ from your opinions. They may be right and just as equally wrong.

Beware, author is often sarcastic in his replies - most often, no sincere offense is intended.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 12:13:10 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		I don't agree that they should be gagged. I live in topeka, KS for a while. And they would protest outside a school that was between me and the nearest gas station. So, I need my Mountain Dew and I wouldn't care if they were shouting kill whitey, I'd have walked through them. Anyway, they'd be chanting, and I'd say excuse me I need to walk by and they'd let me walk right down the middle of them without a word.

So, they are of themselves non-threatening, they didn't even push their view on me at all and I probably walked threw them 10 times or more. I acknowledge their right to express what they think, and walked on by. The problem is they are looking for people the "SAME" as they are(People that feel some thought should be banned, and is completely untolereable) that will stop in the middle of traffic and start a insane shouting contest. It's the Phelp's on one side, and the equally idiotic that are actually breaking the law throwing shit in a crowd with kids, that is the problem. That little group would dissolve if everyone just ignored them, but idiots like to argue with idiots. It's both sides.

Now, I do feel the funeral thing is to much as it attacking someone that is dead and can't defend themselves. A simple protest law restricting demonstrations within a certain area of a funeral would take care of that. And I doubt it would encounter resistance from 99% of the protest groups.


(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 12:29:12 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		If they protest at a dead Military Person's funeral like that they should have the shit beat out of them with louisville slugger baseball bats.
We really do need Vigilance Committees in this country again.
I believe in free speech but when they start *screaming at the family and survivors at a funeral for Military people* I think it's your duty to beat the crap out of those people!
"Go grab a coffee Officers, we'll handle this."
That's all it would take, one or two serious beatings and they'd get the message.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 1:20:49 PM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine
EGAD!!  You want to give the uber-liberals here an excuse to riot?  Everyone in the U.S. has the right to say what they want, when they want because any legal intervention by any group to suppress any spoken thought will be an outright infringement on their rights and if you legislate what an ultra-nutty religious group can say or not say, then the same rules would apply to the uber-liberals and we can't have that.



But the Phelps crew claims to be Christian... and aren't all hard-line liberals part of a conspiracy to drive Christianity out of the U.S.?

They're very careful to not initiate a physical assault on anyone. They need to be, because that is what keeps them on the side of "peaceable protest". By tying their "God Hates Fags" agenda to the war effort, they politicize their speech- and political speech is exactly what the First Amendment was intended to protect.

The U.S. has some gray areas with regards to hate speech. There are scattered state and local laws, but they're on very shaky ground Constitutionally. Court cases have been won allowing "hate groups" like the Klu Klux Klan and other White Supremacists to march and hold rallies.

However, i, too, am very surprised that the Phelps protests at military funerals haven't resulted in any of them being hospitalized or killed.

...dave

(in reply to ToGiveDivine)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 2:22:32 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		No they shouldn't be gagged, they give the world an insight into the minds of the religious right. Of course the religious right would disown them but they would disown them not because they think they are wrong but because of the lousy PR job they are doing for the religious right.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 2:45:20 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

If they protest at a dead Military Person's funeral like that they should have the shit beat out of them with louisville slugger baseball bats.
We really do need Vigilance Committees in this country again.
I believe in free speech but when they start *screaming at the family and survivors at a funeral for Military people* I think it's your duty to beat the crap out of those people!
"Go grab a coffee Officers, we'll handle this."
That's all it would take, one or two serious beatings and they'd get the message.


Sorry but i don't agree with you - as usual. They shout at anyones funeral they should have the shit beaten out of them. Dead military personnel do not have any more rights than the average joe to a quiet funeral.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 6:24:02 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

We are a country that struggles mightily with concepts like moderation, rational discourse and the concept of treat others like you would want to be treated.



I disagree.  This is not about our country.  This is not really about the Constitution.

This is about arrogant, self-involved nitwits who think the Constitution gives them the right to be downright despicable human beings.  It is about a lack of manners.  It is about a lack of class.  It is about a lack of ability to respect another person even if one does not agree with what they say.  It is about people who claim they are Christians and believe it so fervently that they can go through life doing everything that Jesus said was inappropriate, and still maintain that they are good Christians.  It is about a triumph of the idea that the ends justify the means.

For me, if I have to sacrifice my ideals to survive, I would rather not survive.  I have to face myself when I brush my teeth before I go to bed at night and ask myself "Have I been a good person today?" and "Have I given back more to this reality than I have taken from it?"

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 6:35:38 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


This is about arrogant, self-involved nitwits who think the Constitution gives them the right to be downright despicable human beings.  It is about a lack of manners.  It is about a lack of class.  It is about a lack of ability to respect another person even if one does not agree with what they say. 




    Y'know, Sinergy, if you cut the statement off where I did above, you could just as easily be talking about the Left these days...

     To the OP, speech at the far edge is the stuff that most needs to be protected.  The idea that they should have their ____'s taken away because they don't think right is far more frightening to me than any nonsense that might come from their hate-filled hearts.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 6:39:04 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


This is about arrogant, self-involved nitwits who think the Constitution gives them the right to be downright despicable human beings.  It is about a lack of manners.  It is about a lack of class.  It is about a lack of ability to respect another person even if one does not agree with what they say. 




  Y'know, Sinergy, if you cut the statement off where I did above, you could just as easily be talking about the Left these days...

   To the OP, speech at the far edge is the stuff that most needs to be protected.  The idea that they should have their ____'s taken away because they don't think right is far more frightening to me than any nonsense that might come from their hate-filled hearts.


I agree,   they were in Chicago a few years back spewing their filth...Let them spew! It is unfortunate that the media bothered with acknowledging their presence...it would be nice if they showed up and everyone went about their biz like it was no big deal.

_____________________________



(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 8:13:32 PM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

We are a country that struggles mightily with concepts like moderation, rational discourse and the concept of treat others like you would want to be treated.



I disagree.  This is not about our country.  This is not really about the Constitution.

This is about arrogant, self-involved nitwits who think the Constitution gives them the right to be downright despicable human beings.  It is about a lack of manners.  It is about a lack of class.  It is about a lack of ability to respect another person even if one does not agree with what they say.  It is about people who claim they are Christians and believe it so fervently that they can go through life doing everything that Jesus said was inappropriate, and still maintain that they are good Christians.  It is about a triumph of the idea that the ends justify the means.

For me, if I have to sacrifice my ideals to survive, I would rather not survive.  I have to face myself when I brush my teeth before I go to bed at night and ask myself "Have I been a good person today?" and "Have I given back more to this reality than I have taken from it?"

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy


I might be missing your point but I thought what you said is what I wrote. I will defend anyone’s right to free speech and the right to assemble to protest but certain times and certain places should just be common sense off limits like funerals.

We let them get away with it because we as a country have lost the ability to look something over and do the decent thing and hide behind things like a constitution and God. We have it is all about me society and if it is not us, it might be us so lets just complain and do nothing.

I think if these protesters ever lose someone they care for people should protest their funerals and see how stupid and pointless it really is. There are just so many other ways to get your message out.



_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 8:23:26 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


We have a line in the sand in the UK with regards to free speech; it basically amounts to using that right with responsibility and not using it to generate hatred against any group. Does the same not apply in the US? If not, should it given the actions of this group?


No. Although you have the right to suffer the consequences of your right to free speech.

If someone took offense, SERIOUS offense, they could simply commit an act of assault upon Mr. Phelps, and leave it to the Jury to decide if it was in the public interest or not.

Look at it this way, due to the total surveillance of the Internet and Telephone communications, The Authorities know EXACTLY where each and every one of his members are at all times. Before they get really "Dangerous", they'll activate the already embedded Agent Provocateur, and shut down the whole she-bang.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 8:56:53 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


This is about arrogant, self-involved nitwits who think the Constitution gives them the right to be downright despicable human beings.  It is about a lack of manners.  It is about a lack of class.  It is about a lack of ability to respect another person even if one does not agree with what they say. 




    Y'know, Sinergy, if you cut the statement off where I did above, you could just as easily be talking about the Left these days...


Or about some of the right-wing posts I've seen on CM.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 9:21:26 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


This is about arrogant, self-involved nitwits who think the Constitution gives them the right to be downright despicable human beings.  It is about a lack of manners.  It is about a lack of class.  It is about a lack of ability to respect another person even if one does not agree with what they say. 




   Y'know, Sinergy, if you cut the statement off where I did above, you could just as easily be talking about the Left these days...


Or about some of the right-wing posts I've seen on CM.



      Ain't partisanship grand?  You're right, DC, it comes from both sides.  I, of course, am above such behavior.

     (anyone with a good dose of snarky in the glass tonight, please note the .)

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 9:25:40 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I, of course, am above such behavior.


Well, that was a given, of course.

quote:

You know all that bad Karma you've built up? I'm it.


ROFLMAO. I may have to steal this!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/5/2007 9:38:29 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


This is about arrogant, self-involved nitwits who think the Constitution gives them the right to be downright despicable human beings.  It is about a lack of manners.  It is about a lack of class.  It is about a lack of ability to respect another person even if one does not agree with what they say. 




   Y'know, Sinergy, if you cut the statement off where I did above, you could just as easily be talking about the Left these days...

    To the OP, speech at the far edge is the stuff that most needs to be protected.  The idea that they should have their ____'s taken away because they don't think right is far more frightening to me than any nonsense that might come from their hate-filled hearts.


I was not talking about a left / right dichotomy.

One of the big issues I see with people is that many of them seem to feel the need to man the barricades against the left/right/whatever.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/6/2007 7:04:52 AM   
ToGiveDivine


Posts: 650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

No they shouldn't be gagged, they give the world an insight into the minds of the religious right. Of course the religious right would disown them but they would disown them not because they think they are wrong but because of the lousy PR job they are doing for the religious right.


Could you be anymore stereotypical?  You just implied that all people on the religious right are wack job fanatics.

That would be like saying all people against the war are traitors or all blacks are gangstas.

Just because you don't care for religious people / conservatives / anti-abortion type / etc. doesn't give you the right to attack them.  You wouldn't want one of those groups to lump "your" crowd into some negative stereotype just because some moron who believes what you believe did something stupid.

Phelps and his gang are some of the lowest of the low - leave everyone not associated with them out of it.

BTW, wasn't name-calling something we did in grade school?

_____________________________

These are my opinions - which may differ from your opinions. They may be right and just as equally wrong.

Beware, author is often sarcastic in his replies - most often, no sincere offense is intended.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Phelps and Free Speech - 4/6/2007 7:12:18 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

Could you be anymore stereotypical?  You just implied that all people on the religious right are wack job fanatics.

All people on the religious right are wackos. Fullstop.

That would be like saying all people against the war are traitors or all blacks are gangstas.

People who are anti-war are not traitors but usually have the good sense to see that the war is fought by everyone for special interest groups. Very few wars are ever fought for freedom and the good of the people.

Just because you don't care for religious people / conservatives / anti-abortion type / etc. doesn't give you the right to attack them.  You wouldn't want one of those groups to lump "your" crowd into some negative stereotype just because some moron who believes what you believe did something stupid.

I still live in a democracy and have every right to attack wackos.

Phelps and his gang are some of the lowest of the low - leave everyone not associated with them out of it.

BTW, wasn't name-calling something we did in grade school?

I'm not name calling, I'm just calling a dog a dog.


_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to ToGiveDivine)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Phelps and Free Speech Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094