RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied

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Slavetrainer2007 -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 2:25:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Hmm I dont recall saying anything about beeing normal or becomeing normal??? If that is what it sounded like it is not what I ment.. Notmal is an unantainable non existant thing!! Magik's slave If someone called me normal, i think i might get offended. I consider normal to be all the "sheep" out their that go by social standards set by other "sheep". i rather be the goat on the hill. On subject: This has been a problem since ive been in BDSM. People slap a title( goes for subs) and they think thats what they are... For men, the appeal is seeing or reading about a dom dominating a women in a sexual nature and her doing what he wants without question. To the vanilla male this translates to: Dom- Easy lay whenever i want or in worse cases- abuse without any reprecussions. On the sub side- Free ride all i have to do is give sex. Unfortantely the Doms bare the brunt of the distrust and negativity because its the doms position that hold the most power and therefore the biggest abuse of power. How do you fix it? You cant. this lifestyle will always appeal to men because of the male nature. There will always be males trying to be dom when they couldnt dominate a puppy little lone a woman. and unfortunately its usually the subs that end up hurt. The best way to contain the problem is through supporting newbies. Especially the female subs, as their naiveness makes them susceptable to BDSM's version of a predator. With support from the more experienced, their will be less newbies to pray on. Newbs need to be taught that just because my name says "slavetrainer" dont mean anything. i might not even be able to potty train a puppy. The need to be taught to be cautious and to question ones abilities and intentions until they prove themselves trustworthy. Educating vanillas about this lifestyle and why we chose it will help too. but for the most part vanillas tend to be very closed minded and sheepish and this lifestyle doesnt fit into vanillas social standards.. in fact having a person on a leash or in a cage to most vanillas is probably considered abuse as is spankings( hell they wont even give their kids a good spanking when other correction methods dont work) bondage( thats about like kidnapping) taking a sub/slave ( raping) etc. One of my favorite sayings is vanillas see the world in 2D and we see the world in 3D and they will never understand us or our ways until they quit trying to view the world in 2D.

Padriag -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 2:28:01 PM)
The situation might eventually benefit by such a "coming out", but I suspect it would be painful and "bloody" for awhile and some would pay a high price for it. Unlike the gay or lesbian community, BDSM involves questions about consenuality, control, equality, human rights, freedom, dignity, self determination, etc. that previous groups either did not have to cope with or not to the same degree. It creates additional obstacles, some of which are very large. I think it would likely take a long time for things to change, and until then, for those "outted" it could become very uncomfortable. And then of course you'd have campaigns of zealots deliberately outting some... which would likely result in me shooting someone (did I mention I like my privacy to be respected?). Messy business.

Padriag -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 2:29:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy It will never be accepted...I would be leading the charge to have you two burned at the stake. Ah, nice tactic to throw them off. The Inquistors are always the last to be suspected of heresy! [;)]

Kris2012 -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 2:30:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub ~Fast Reply~ I think the BDSM community would benfit a lot by coming out of the closet as a whole and following the lessons taught to us by the gay and lesbian rights groups. It becomes a lot harder to hate and distrust a group of people when suddenly your daughter, your best friend or your parent is "one of them". The question then would be, is the BDSM community ready to deal with that, or more importantly, willing to deal with that? It's not easy to come out of the closet and as other groups have taught us through their examples, there is normally a backlash period where things will get much worse before they get better. Gays and Lesbians had a very up-hill battle to earn the acceptance they presently have and that acceptance still isn't solid or universal. Don't get me wrong. I'm a big believer in honesty and being open about who I am and what I'm about. If someone asks me something they will get the truth (much to many peoples dismay.) but I also accept that not everyone can handle being open and honest.

domiguy -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 2:33:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy It will never be accepted...I would be leading the charge to have you two burned at the stake. Ah, nice tactic to throw them off. The Inquistors are always the last to be suspected of heresy! [;)] Exactly!!!....But before we burn them I would like to personally interrogate the one with the large breasts alone.....Muuuahahhahahaha!!!

Vendaval -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 2:38:45 PM)
Straight up, I do not think we can keep BD/DS/SM from being villified. I do however, want to make sure we are not criminalized. Staying active with the NCSF and other groups is the way to go.

ChainedExistence -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 2:46:46 PM)
It could potentially have Plenty to do with you. You have your picture up on a public website. While you may have no cause for concern, others do and have good reasons to worry. There are cases of people working where there are "morality" clauses that would call for their dismissal. Custody cases can certainly be decided based on on what goes on " in the privacy" of one's own home. Even the local country club or other social institutions can suddenly decide you aren't a "good fit" based on the life you choose to lead, and many a person has being shunned more or less by religious institutions they have spent their entire lives serving. While some people may not care to be a part of those institutions, many do want to live in such a way that they fit in socially and professionally with those in their community. The POTENTIAL is certainly there for those in charge to decide that other deterrants need to exist to keep this "harmful" activity from occuring at all. Everytime something comes out in the press where someone used their kink in a way that was truly nonconsensual, I do cringe a little. How many cases will be one too many in the eyes of those in charge? I'm not sure how we deal with that...but thinking that" it doesn't affect me" is probably naive.

domiguy -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 2:50:53 PM)
Never going to happen...Too many look upon this as a kink, and nothing more...There is not a common voice and do you want to throw yourself "in" with everybody who participates out here? Lots of sick twists. Let it be villified who really cares?

jauntyone -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 2:59:01 PM)
Greetings chainedexistence I will admit for those who actually partake of the BDSM play aspects, maybe the attitude of 'it has nothing to do with me' might go too far. However, Master and I do not play. He has used a flogger on me twice in 4 years; he does not tie me up, we do not go to clubs, we do not go to dungeons. Ours is strictly a M/s dynamic with no extras included. I am sorry, but for myself; it really does not affect me. If someone wants to drag me through a court because they saw my picture up here; more power to them. It will not get them very far [:)] I wish you well melissa

TNstepsout -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 3:24:08 PM)
You can't stop anyone or anything from being villified if there is money, power or political gain to be had from doing so. Lifestyle issues/stories are good for all three. Everyone loves a titillating story and it makes good press. Good press sells. Moral issues (as sex is percived to be) are great political bargain chips, which covers the other two possible gains. It's a downhill train wreck you just can't stop. Any story that appeals to our emotions is going to get a reaction, and most of the time, if it's well done, the writer will get exactly the response he wishes. People are very easily led by rhetoric and propaganda. Very few people will take the time or make the effort to look below the surface of the words presented to them. A very good, timely example, is the current political atmosphere in which many people assume that ALL middle eastern people are religious extremists prone to violence and terrorism. Are ALL Christians bombing abortion clinics? No, but some would rather paint all with a solid brush rather than condeming the actions themselves. If they didn't, they might have to look at their own actions with a more critical eye. So, not to digress further into controversial issues... all one can really ever do is to govern one's own actions and behavior. Everything else has to work itself out.

SlyStone -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 3:28:51 PM)
The truth is that with every case that comes to court that has an underlieing BDSM relationship more eyes are drawn on us and this can be a problem. Perhaps the way to keep it from being vilified is to realize that it is not a community or a cult or a religion, there is no "us" but rather a way that some individual people chose to relate to each other. As a community there is a certain culpability shared by all for those who deviant from the supposed standard. As individuals we are all responsible for our own actions, and I think that is as it should be.

SirDominic -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 3:54:58 PM)
We as a community are so unwilling to define ourselves, that a vacuum is left. If we won't define what our lifestyle is, those who don't understand us will. Namaste, Sir Dominic

AquaticSub -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 4:44:08 PM)
That is an excellent point.

CreativeDominant -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 5:45:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic We as a community are so unwilling to define ourselves, that a vacuum is left. If we won't define what our lifestyle is, those who don't understand us will. Namaste, Sir Dominic You make an excellent point but look at the difficulty of defining ourselves. There are many who understand what S.S.C. and RACK are really meant to cover...the intricacies and not just the basics of the two concepts. But just how many here in this forum alone have expressed a problem of some sort with either concept? Now multiply that by the number of people who participate in D/s BDSM but who do not participate in these forums but belong to this site. Now add in a few more from those who belong to sites like Chatro or Alt.com or etc., etc.. Finally, add in a few who've never belonged to any site on the net. How many people now do you have that participate in D/s BDSM, who have at the very least disdain for the precepts of S.S.C. or RACK, express those feelings openly and then wonder why those who "don't get D/s BDSM" look askance when those who DO believe in the concept of S. S. C. and RACK point to those as a "governing" measure of our "play". As already noted, who within D/s BDSM is going to be allowed to define us and who could do so in such a way that would include definitions of D/s and BDSM that would satisfy the great majority of practitioners but not all? We've seen that happen on these boards too. Some play in such a manner that it is considered too "mild" by "serious" players. Some play at a level considered "too" out there by others. And yet, both may be playing within an accepted scope...but what about those who are not within that scope at either extreme? Can anyone deny that many times, when someone speaks up and tells a submissive or a dominant that their style is not only extreme but dangerous, that many will tell the "offending" person that he/she has no right to be judgemental about another's relationship/play/attitude? Sorry if this offends some...but it seems to me that to speak up and state that something is wrong or abusive on here generally results in this...even when most people are saying to themselves with that little, niggling voice of conscience "that is not D/s, that is abuse." Let's face it...though the percentage is, hopefully, much smaller than the number of loving M/s couples like Mercnbeth... there is bound to be M/s or D/s couples wherein the dynamic is called D/s by the participants and even defended, though not necessarily agreed with, as such when the truth of the matter is that the relationship dynamic is skewed towards abusive domineering and beaten-down, abject acceptance. But to speak up against such a relationship being labeled as D/s might result in statements of "Who are you to judge?" or "Non-accepting of a style different than your own". And, to be fair, in some cases the detractors would be right...for there are many extreme couples who do practice extreme D/s and/or extreme BDSM that can seem abusive on the surface but when examined critically fits within the concepts. BUT...there are those who don't but who skate by on the fear of many of being labeled "politically incorrect" or "non-tolerant" or "judgmental".

SlyStone -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 6:35:03 PM)
We as a community are so unwilling to define ourselves, that a vacuum is left. If we won't define what our lifestyle is, those who don't understand us will. It is a fine and noble thought Dominic, although I would say it is an idealistic one rather than a realistic one. Assuming we as a community even exist, which I would disagree with, how exactly do you want to define it? How about safe sane consensual, that good old SSC? Safe: What is safe. Is breath play safe? Is knife play safe? Is exploring rape emotionally safe? Is being kept in a cage for hours safe? It depends on the individual(s) right? Who defines that for everyone? Sane: I guess we are going to need our own definition of sanity to go along with our definition of d/s and bdsm because based on societies definitions we are all insane or at least emotionally damaged. Who defines sanity? Consensual: What does consensual really mean? To me it means that withing certain prescribed limits one is allowed to use another person for your mutual pleasure and fulfillment of needs. The problem is that even limits are fluid and I would not want anyone to be able to use as a defense in court that the fact that it was a consensual relationship allowed abuse and injury. How can anyone be sure limits were not violated? It is just to much of a slippery slope for me. There is a current thread asking what makes a master. I think the question should be what makes a man or women capable of accepting the control and authority over another human being. The answer I think, is responsibility for ones actions and responsibility for those who one cares for . Assuming that is the case than there is no need for some sort of unification of community definitions, as if that was possible., only the need for people to take responsibility for their own actions.

MagiksSlave -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/30/2007 8:05:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jauntyone Greetings, I am going to actually be the bad person here and say straight out; what does any of this have to do with me personally? If another decides to take their relationship public in such a way, it really does not affect me one bit. The only person I worry about is Master; and I let him worry about me. It may be callous but I have never believed in getting involved in others business. If those in the vanilla world want to view me as a bit off my rocker because I tend to bow down to a man; then so be it. They are welcome to their narrow-mindedness. If they wish to know why I act the way I do, they will get an honest answer. It is then up to them to either accept or refuse. Either way, it still does not affect my relationship with Master. I wish you well melissa Master talked me out of the reply that I wanted to put here because I couldnt word it well and I dont want to start anything so Im gunna let him take care of this one he is oh so much better at this then I am and he will explain my thought far better then I can and the way he says it wont cause a fight (because while I understand what you are saiying I dont totaly afree) and Im afraid the way I was gunna put it might.. we had a long discution about a reply to this and I have desided to let him take the ball here. Magik's slave

SirDominic -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/31/2007 10:59:13 AM)
CreativeDominant, SlyStone, I know I am tilting at windmills with this issue. I just do not agree that it is impossible to come up with a general definition of our lifestyle that would describe the median range. No, we are not going to come up with a definition that everyone is happy with. No, we are never going to be able to include everyone's specific interpretations. Who is going to decide what this definition is? The community as a whole has to. Look at previous precedents. The Gay community has been able to do it, the Lesbian community. So why not this one? Because my initial comment still stands. As long as we are not going to tell the world what our lifestyle is about in general terms, those who don't understand us will do it for us, and it will perpetuate the negative image it has. Idealistic or realistic, that is the reality. The bottom line. Sly, as to your thoughts about defining terms. I have to admit this example totally baffles me. I can see where it can be hard to define words specific to this lifestyle. What is a sub? What is a Dom? But common, everyday words like safe, sane, consensual are defined in any dictionary you pull off the shelf. They don't suddenly have alternate or new meanings just because they are used in a BDSM discussion, or at least they shouldn't. Like I said at the beginning, I know I am in the minority on this issue of defining ourselves. If it wasn't so important I wouldn't even bother bringing it up anymore. Is is that I do think it is critically important that I continue to put forward the opposing view. Namaste, Sir Dominic

amiciaN -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/31/2007 12:22:02 PM)
This is a very interesting thread with valid points on all sides. As I see it, the central issue is tolerance, both within wiitwd and the 'vanilla' world. Everyone has limits to their tolerance and it is not necessarily a static thing. (If you doubt that, talk to the parent or primary caregiver of a 3-4 yo UM.) There actually are some things that should NOT be tolerated! Driving head-on into bumper-to-bumper traffic going 60 mph comes to mind. The problem becomes where to draw that line of tolerance and every person is going to draw it slightly differently. You can't even really call it a line. Nazi Germany was so intolerant of some groups that they tolerated mass murder; not very linear as I understand the concept. Most people in the US agree that our society is becoming more polarized, regardless of which pole they rally around. Where change can be made is in getting people to realize that the pole they are rallied around is actually one of many holding up a large canopy. I think that the canopy can be more easily defined than the specific poles holding it up. There are those who feel uncomfortable with calling wiitwd a lifestyle, a community or any other similar term. There are those who revel in being 'outside' the vanilla world. But the threats to our personal freedoms are growing and there are some unlikely bedfellows in the process. Conservative, fundamentalist Christians and Muslims certainly agree on what they see as our depravity if nothing else. The only way I see to protect ourselves is form enough of a community to 'fight back', even if it is only to say that it is a matter of personal choice and consent. To do that, we may have to stretch our own limits of tolerance. I too find the NCSF to be one group that is trying to lead the way. An interesting article on this topic by Race Bannon is found at: http://www.fetishalliance.net/Stories/SM_BD_DS/BasicEtiquette/casualkinkandfulltimeperverts.htm As always, this is just my own personal opinion, but in this case I do hope this thread gets good mileage. (edited twice for poor grammar... grrr)

Brownbohemian -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/31/2007 12:52:42 PM)
nfortunately we will always be villified, even by our own. People want and need something to hate or fight. I don't agree with this need, but what can we do. Those of us in the BDSM lifestyle are usually searching for a better way ofliving, understanding, loving, etc. We have found our way and can only hope to be a shining example of progress (once we have actually made progress which I am still working on myself). Education, forgiveness, and undertsnading are the only ways to unvillify our way of existance. To be honest I can't think of any easier ways than that.

MagiksSlave -> RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied (3/31/2007 4:32:55 PM)
Hmm Bohemian, You say "Those of us in the BDSM lifestyle are usually searching for a better way ofliving, understanding, loving, etc. We have found our way and can only hope to be a shining example of progress" I have to say this is just as bad as those that think BDSM is a bunch of sico and such.We are no better for what we do then they are for what they do we are just different. And I for one have never agreed that BDSM relationships are any better more loveing or anything then a vanilla one just different. We all need to lose our superiority complex and lives as humans among humans.. See the more labels we give ourselvs the more boxes we try to fit in, the more different we feel we are then eachother. Why do we need to be vanilla BDSM arab jewish white black why cant we all just say we are human each and every one of us different yet the same... Ok ill put away my soap box now! Magik's slave

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