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From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 5:28:18 AM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
I think the vast majority of people who do wiitwd are tops and bottoms, for lack of a better description. They range from casual to serious players, some in relationships and some not. The relationships they are in are not d/s, they don't relate all the time as dom and sub or master and slave. They simply relate as human beings.

I believe there is only a tiny minority of people whe would even attempt to portray themselves as 24/7 lifestyle d/s. While I have respect for their attempt to live a certain way of life, and may have respect for them, for me personally the idea of living such a conditional and defined existence is not one that I could or would ever embrace. And yet  one gets the feeling that everyone is or should be into d/s, otherwise you are just looking for kinky sex. And yet bdsm is more than kinky sex, at least it is for me.

Sometimes I wonder if  people are using the so called d/s relationship as a justification for engaging in bdsm, as if they are ashamed of their need for kinky sex and fetishism and the acting out of violent fantasy, so they wrap it in the pretty package of master slave or dom sub, and they cloak it with the magic of consenuality and labels, and they privately wear their titles like a twisted shield of legitimacy and a badge of honor.

The giving of authority or power takes place in any bdsm dynamic, and there is always a blending of the mental and the physical in any bdsm interaction. In my opinion it is therefore the bdsm that is the core difference between how "we" live and how others live. Not the d/s, but the bdsm, the kink, the physical act, whatever you want to call it.

One could argue that If you take away the bdsm , the physical aspect of wiitwd,, than you are basically left with a vanilla relationship. The exchange of authority and control exists in relationships all throughout society with no special labels given or needed, it simply is how many people relate. Perhaps it is even the norm. Giving it a name and defining it it and labeling it does not make it any more real. It is what it is.

Take out the kink and every church going God fearing spandex and white belt wearing republican support the troops loving American will say it is the American way for the man to be in charge and God bless America and pass the apple pie. Just hide the whips and cuffs and pins, cause that is what makes you different. And if the women is in charge that aint exactly unusual, how many households are run and controlled by the wife, and the husband takes on the submissive role? Happens all the time.

But why is that an insult to some people? Why can't people admit that they are in it for the kink and the fetish and the so called perversions and the alternative sexual behavior that defines bdsm?  Yes they have a need to submit or to dominate, just not all the time.

That does not mean that they are not really submissive or dominant or switches by nature, it means they don't have to be engaging in a conditional manner all the time or pretending to engage in a conditional manner all the time. Why is that some sort of dirty secret to admit, whereas saying one is in a d/s relationship is somehow more meaningful and more real?

Because real is a relative term, and for some of us what is real is how we relate unconditionally, not how we relate conditionally. 


_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin
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RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 5:58:43 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
I find your article interesting and something that stuck out was this -
 
quote:

Sometimes I wonder if  people are using the so called d/s relationship as a justification for engaging in bdsm, as if they are ashamed of their need for kinky sex and fetishism and the acting out of violent fantasy, so they wrap it in the pretty package of master slave or dom sub, and they cloak it with the magic of consenuality and labels, and they privately wear their titles like a twisted shield of legitimacy and a badge of honor.

 
In a recent discussion between D/s and non D/sers about the local scene (in London particularly), it was noted that the D/sers felt excluded from the clubs and even some munches, as though they were 'doing something wrong' simply because they weren't in it for the casual play, or the pain, or the swish toys and play equipment - stating that they were made to feel aliens in an environment where being 'seen' was more important than being in the 'scene'.
 
So whos 'fault' is it at the end of the day.
Is it the D/sers who try and come to events, only to be told that their way of 'power exchange' isn't really 24/7 or is it the Fetishist who enjoy showing off their fancy goods and exactly what they can'do' - only to be looked down on by 'true lifestylers'.
 
Who knows.
 
Thing is - People consistantly view BDSM as a Lifestyle - as a group - and in some sections a sub culture.  Is it really any of these things?  Yes and No.  Depends on who you ask.  Just as D/s - it depends on who you ask.  No one can really say that most people are Tops and Bottoms because then your taking away peoples individual right to choose for themselves.  Your version of Ds may be completely different to another.  No one person is right and no one person is wrong.  Everyone tries so hard to wrap BDSM into a lovely little parcel so it can be posted about the circle and when the music stops we can try and strip off another layer to get to the yummy prize inside.
 
Fact is - You (generic) are actually the parcel and all those groovey layers you/we strip off over time finds the real prize.  Being Yourself.
 
It all comes down to peer pressure and trying to define D/s or what a Top or Bottom or slave is or where BDSM comes in life and for everyone is just not going to work because it is different for everyone.  Life is full of peer presure and that is what people are trying to escape from when they play out their scenes and their fantasies and try and live their life for themselves.  But end of the day, most people still want to belong - and so BDSM as a sub culture is born.  Squeezed into a cold and harsh world when it really doesn't want to be - only to be subjected to more peer pressure - caused by those trying to escape the exact same things.
 
Peace and Rapture
 

< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 3/29/2007 6:00:05 AM >

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SlyStone)
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RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 6:05:03 AM   
myobedience


Posts: 472
Joined: 1/28/2007
Status: offline 		But why is that an insult to some people? Why can't people admit that they are in it for the kink and the fetish and the so called perversions and the alternative sexual behavior that defines bdsm?  Yes they have a need to submit or to dominate, just not all the time.

My quick response....
He does not dominate with a kink, I do not submit for a kink.
I have a need to submit to whatever he desires; He has a need to control everything about his personal life involving me.
In the 2 months I have known and been with him, the outside world might say, she sure is passive, he sure in domineering ..... but that is because they know nothing about the D/s relationship.

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you is the only Man truly worthy of being called Master.

(in reply to SlyStone)
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RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 7:39:35 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		We live in a society where the relationship is often much more prized than satisfaction of a physical need. We prize initmate relationships, no matter what level, well about the one-night-stand; we prize making love over fucking. Hence, those in Ds or Ms relationships, equated with inimate relationships and making love, and are often seen as better than the fetishist since the fetishist is often equated with a one-night-stand and fucking. It's simply the society in which we were raised, at least in the US. After all, the bulk of the colonies were established by right wing religious groups that were kicked out of wherever they came from.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
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BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to SlyStone)
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RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 7:53:28 AM   
apettiger


Posts: 131
Joined: 1/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


I think the vast majority of people who do wiitwd are tops and bottoms, for lack of a better description. They range from casual to serious players, some in relationships and some not. The relationships they are in are not d/s, they don't relate all the time as dom and sub or master and slave. They simply relate as human beings.
 
 
quote:
 
 
first off, what is wiitwd?

 
quote:




I believe there is only a tiny minority of people whe would even attempt to portray themselves as 24/7 lifestyle d/s. While I have respect for their attempt to live a certain way of life, and may have respect for them, for me personally the idea of living such a conditional and defined existence is not one that I could or would ever embrace. And yet  one gets the feeling that everyone is or should be into d/s, otherwise you are just looking for kinky sex. And yet bdsm is more than kinky sex, at least it is for me.


quote:





i have never witnessed a relationship, of any kind, where o/one was not dominate over the other. and i HAVE lived a 24/7 TPE life and cannot thrive in any other kind of relationship.



quote:




Sometimes I wonder if  people are using the so called d/s relationship as a justification for engaging in bdsm, as if they are ashamed of their need for kinky sex and fetishism and the acting out of violent fantasy, so they wrap it in the pretty package of master slave or dom sub, and they cloak it with the magic of consenuality and labels, and they privately wear their titles like a twisted shield of legitimacy and a badge of honor.

quote:

 


personally, i do not see a difference. TPE is TPE, O/one does not have to break out the whips and chains to have it.


quote:




The giving of authority or power takes place in any bdsm dynamic, and there is always a blending of the mental and the physical in any bdsm interaction. In my opinion it is therefore the bdsm that is the core difference between how "we" live and how others live. Not the d/s, but the bdsm, the kink, the physical act, whatever you want to call it.

quote:




there is a blending of the physical and mental in almost any relationship and most have at least one kinky-little-thing they are into. so imho it is not so much the physical acting out of the kink that makes the difference, it is the whips and chains (i.e., the amount and types of "toys" O/one aquires, and where and how they are used)


quote:





One could argue that If you take away the bdsm , the physical aspect of wiitwd,, than you are basically left with a vanilla relationship. The exchange of authority and control exists in relationships all throughout society with no special labels given or needed, it simply is how many people relate. Perhaps it is even the norm. Giving it a name and defining it it and labeling it does not make it any more real. It is what it is.

quote:




giving a fish a name and defining it does not make it any more a fish either, but it does make it easier for P/people to tell about it.


quote:




Take out the kink and every church going God fearing spandex and white belt wearing republican support the troops loving American will say it is the American way for the man to be in charge and God bless America and pass the apple pie. Just hide the whips and cuffs and pins, cause that is what makes you different. And if the women is in charge that aint exactly unusual, how many households are run and controlled by the wife, and the husband takes on the submissive role? Happens all the time.

quote]


i thought that WAS the American way.
when i was growing up i asked my mother and grandmother why they ruled the house and the Men would, basically do what they said and i was told by both of them, "He works hard to provide what W/we have. He spends the majority of His time out of the house making sure that i have the things i need to care for it. the ONLY reason He listens to what i say about the house is because this is MY job, just like what He does outside the House is His job. He wants me to do a good job, so, since i know more about what goes on in here than He does, because i am here all the time and He is not, He ALLOWS me to do what i think is right. but if He says i must do something a certain way, then there is no argument, no discussion, it is done the way He says. this really is His house, i just take care of it for Him"


quote:





But why is that an insult to some people? Why can't people admit that they are in it for the kink and the fetish and the so called perversions and the alternative sexual behavior that defines bdsm?  Yes they have a need to submit or to dominate, just not all the time.

[qoute]


some people are afraid of their baser instincts and try to hide them. a lot of rapes and murders come from people like that.


quote:





That does not mean that they are not really submissive or dominant or switches by nature, it means they don't have to be engaging in a conditional manner all the time or pretending to engage in a conditional manner all the time. Why is that some sort of dirty secret to admit, whereas saying one is in a d/s relationship is somehow more meaningful and more real?

quote:




refer to the above statement


quote:





Because real is a relative term, and for some of us what is real is how we relate unconditionally, not how we relate conditionally. 




real is what directly affect U/us, either positive or negitive, conditionally or unconditionally.



edited to add: please know that some of these answers, although as truthful as i could make them, were done tounge-in-cheek and not intended to offend A/anyone

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378-828-272

(in reply to SlyStone)
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RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 7:58:38 AM   
apettiger


Posts: 131
Joined: 1/15/2007
Status: offline 		sorry about the looooong post. didnt know it would do that

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RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 8:00:18 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


I think the vast majority of people who do wiitwd are tops and bottoms, for lack of a better description. They range from casual to serious players, some in relationships and some not. The relationships they are in are not d/s, they don't relate all the time as dom and sub or master and slave. They simply relate as human beings.

I believe there is only a tiny minority of people whe would even attempt to portray themselves as 24/7 lifestyle d/s. While I have respect for their attempt to live a certain way of life, and may have respect for them, for me personally the idea of living such a conditional and defined existence is not one that I could or would ever embrace. And yet  one gets the feeling that everyone is or should be into d/s, otherwise you are just looking for kinky sex. And yet bdsm is more than kinky sex, at least it is for me.

 
And for you, that is your right.  I have no desire to live an existence anymore that is not defined from the outset with room left for negotiation of those boundaries once or twice or three or however many times a year that my partner and I decide to view the structure of our relationship.  It comes across that you see conditional and defined as rigid...it is to a certain extent but the level of rigidity is up to the individuals involved.  I see where there would be that certain level of what you term conditional and defined and am happy with the idea that, if I am honorable and my partner is honorable about living up to our agreement with both of us knowing that it will be revisited from time to time, I can pretty much know what to expect in certain areas of my life.


quote:

Sometimes I wonder if  people are using the so called d/s relationship as a justification for engaging in bdsm, as if they are ashamed of their need for kinky sex and fetishism and the acting out of violent fantasy, so they wrap it in the pretty package of master slave or dom sub, and they cloak it with the magic of consenuality and labels, and they privately wear their titles like a twisted shield of legitimacy and a badge of honor.


That may be true in some cases...I don't happen to think it happens as often as you think but we both may be wrong and the true answer lies somewhere in the middle.

quote:

The giving of authority or power takes place in any bdsm dynamic, and there is always a blending of the mental and the physical in any bdsm interaction. In my opinion it is therefore the bdsm that is the core difference between how "we" live and how others live. Not the d/s, but the bdsm, the kink, the physical act, whatever you want to call it.

One could argue that If you take away the bdsm , the physical aspect of wiitwd,, than you are basically left with a vanilla relationship. The exchange of authority and control exists in relationships all throughout society with no special labels given or needed, it simply is how many people relate. Perhaps it is even the norm. Giving it a name and defining it it and labeling it does not make it any more real. It is what it is.


And the giving a name to it...D/s...makes it wrong how?
I would argue with you that power exchange does not take place within every relationship...and can argue that from the standpoint of one who was in a relationship where I suppose you could state that there was a power exchange of equality: neither of us had any more power than the other which may work well for some people.  It didn't for me.  I got tired of the endless conversation over something as simple as where she wanted to go to dinner or what color to paint the living room and on and on and on...and the pouting that occurred from her side when I happened to "win" a conversation and we went my way on something as to her, the fact that she had not won resulted in it being an unequal partnership.  As long as she won, it was equal.
And in a lot of those Christian households where the wife is submissive to the husband?  I've met quite a few of those men who are domineering, not dominant.  Their wives are brow-beaten, not submissive.  I think I will take the D/s couples who truly understand what dominance is and what submissive is and who've come to an agreement about where that D/s takes place in their relationship and how.

Take out the kink and every church going God fearing spandex and white belt wearing republican support the troops loving American will say it is the American way for the man to be in charge and God bless America and pass the apple pie. Just hide the whips and cuffs and pins, cause that is what makes you different. And if the women is in charge that aint exactly unusual, how many households are run and controlled by the wife, and the husband takes on the submissive role? Happens all the time.

Don't know that I'd call myself a republican...I'm conservative on some issues and liberal on others.  I do know that I haven't worn a white belt in a long time and, despite the problems in my 'nilla marriage, I never was submissive to my wife while telling others about how the man should be in charge.  In a D/s relationship, if the submissive partner happens to run the finances and control the rest of the household but does it on her dominant's orders and is following those orders...is she really in charge of the relationship or is she submitting to her dominant partner's will and is being used in the best possible way as an asset to him, to herself, and to the good of the household?

quote:

But why is that an insult to some people? Why can't people admit that they are in it for the kink and the fetish and the so called perversions and the alternative sexual behavior that defines bdsm?  Yes they have a need to submit or to dominate, just not all the time.

That does not mean that they are not really submissive or dominant or switches by nature, it means they don't have to be engaging in a conditional manner all the time or pretending to engage in a conditional manner all the time. Why is that some sort of dirty secret to admit, whereas saying one is in a d/s relationship is somehow more meaningful and more real?
 

I can't speak for everyone.  I can say that for me, whether I practice D/s every single minute of the day is not the defining characteristic...it is whether or not my relationship is based on a D/s structure and that I don't use the D/s as some sort of "club" to take out and use when things get a might heated but put away when I'm "just too tired" to give support or guidance or nurturing or a feeling of security.  I don't have to have some sort of structured, stilted, conditional protocol to be followed through on to give those...and yet those are parts of what I consider to be dominance.  I expect the rules set down...trust, discipline of self, respect, deference, responsibility...to be followed at all times and not just by her but by me.  Part of a good relationship?  Yes, but not always followed in many vanilla relationships and probably not followed in some D/s relationships.  That's their way...it isn't mine.  Doesn't make me more "real" or "true" than another, it just makes me what I am and what I want.

quote:

Because real is a relative term, and for some of us what is real is how we relate unconditionally, not how we relate conditionally. 


And that is your choice...as well as it is for others.  It is not my choice and, judging from the posts of some of the people on this thread and on other threads, it is not theirs.  But in going through some of your threads,  it seems as though you want those of us who don't see it that way to subscribe to your viewpoint of how it "really" is.  Because where does your "reality" come from?  Your interviews with couples who consider themselves to be D/s?  Your interviews with others of a similar mindset to yours? And how does your preconceived bias based on your viewpoints and observations of others come into play when making your decisions?   Is it possible that you worked backwards from your predetermined conclusion ...this is what I believe...in order to come to your view? 

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 8:06:45 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		I do not really agree with your assessment that most people are just top and bottoms in this life and many who proclaim or are into the D/s area are also top and bottoms using it to feel free to live their kink. I think this is an ice berg opinion. Coming to a conclusion based on what you see in the surface and not seeing what is beneath that surface.

Local communities are just going to draw a much higher percentage of top and bottom people because that is how local communities are set up for best. I am not saying “real” D/s and M/s people are not active in local communities but because these lives are so personal and not based on kink and toys and local communities tend to be about casual, types of play exploring, learning and the physical aspects and this just has more appeal to tops and bottoms as it is the main part of their attraction while M/s people it is more the by product.

Both me and my Master have been active in local communities before we met each other and both left it well before we met. A big bonding moment for both of us was discussing the reasons for leaving and for both of us the main thing was that talking, seeing and even experimenting with the physical things did nothing for us because it was first and foremost a power thing to us and not a physical action thing.

Human nature has a natural dichotomy of individuals wanting to feel special but at the same time belong to a group who share their beliefs. This life is no exception as too many people do preach this is the way it is or should be which happens to be magically their way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


One could argue that If you take away the bdsm , the physical aspect of wiitwd,, than you are basically left with a vanilla relationship. The exchange of authority and control exists in relationships all throughout society with no special labels given or needed, it simply is how many people relate. Perhaps it is even the norm. Giving it a name and defining it it and labeling it does not make it any more real. It is what it is.




I am sorry but this comment is in a nutshell what you do not understand about what people like me are about. We are not hiding in an M/s relationship to indulge in BDSM but need the BDSM to indulge in the power exchange. The BDSM is not about specific pleasure but the physical manifestation of the significant power exchange. It is not the sting of the crop but seeing my Master take pleasure in doing it to me. It is the dominant taking pleasure from seeing their slave take pain to show their devotion. To live a power exchange relationship for many of us it takes all aspects including the BDSM and it cannot be separated and isolated out of the relationship. So to take away the BDSM in a power exchange relationship makes it basically vanilla is just not accurate. Take away the physical manifestations, you will not see a significant power exchange relationship of the nature that many of us describe. There are power exchange aspects to most relationships but the level practiced for most of us here, it takes physical things to get to the higher level then what you will see for almost all “vanilla” relationships.




_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 8:25:39 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		I think the problem isn't that the BDSM community considers the fact people are in it just for the kink as negatively as the individual being accused of using BDSM for kink.
I think indeed many only focus on the BDSM aspect of their relationships about 1/2 the time and follow their vanilla desires the other half.
If in someone's mind that makes them not serious who should care what others think you should do to be happy if you're happy the way you are?
I think the problem is yes many a sub is always in the submissive role even in the vanilla venues so the electricity and energy of the D/s runs in the relationship deeply from the inside looking out.
I also think the level of submission a Dom enforces and wants in his sub has a lot to do with the public's opinion of how deeply submitting the sub is when often in cases things viewed as toppy behavior were ordained and ordered specifically because the Dom wants that in the relationship.
I think over all to judge someone and to judge how their BDSM journey encompasses someone else's life is much like saying you could understand exactly the flavor of the gum someone's chewing without smelling it or tasting it yourself.
Basically others have preconceived notions of what they think a D/s relationship should look like and how it's to be run.
I agree most are not intensely manipulating the power exchange in ways the public can see and comprehend.
I think what goes on in the private lives and in the background may indeed make you think someone's just so so into the lifestyle where it may be a full 24/7 TPE you just don't understand.

I don't care if others agree with how dedicated to this world I am. I know where I am, where I feel I fit into this world and how much a life encompassing journey this is for me.
If others don't see that they are welcome to their own perspective.
I don't need others to agree with me to know I'm doing the right thing for myself.

On the note most people into BDSM are tops and bottoms and not D/s M/s.
I think in public venues people go ther to play and keep their TPE things on a more personal, closer to the breast thing.
I think often the M/s D/s people go to Top/bottom in public because it's fun and more socially accepted.
I also have participated in Edge play group discussions where the more edgier players discuss how they've had to tone it way down to the flog a little bit, bind a little bit and the lighter sensual side in public venues as people react too strongly to deep scenes. 
The reactions and distractions of people to your heavy extreme play can get into your head in a public scene sometimes no matter how hard you try and stay focused on the energy between the two of you you're pulled outside the energy exchange by the public.
Extreme, hard, or heavy is better done in a place you will not be constanly fighting to keep focused in all the chaos of a public venue and you don't have to consider who will come into your space, say something rude, or accidentally catch your whip because they are too stupid to stand a safe distance from your scene.
A Dom, Master has more complete control of the environment around him in private venues than in public ones.
I think what you don't see is happening a lot more than people tend to consider.
suzanne
edited because my first post was a little off the cuff and I missed a point that changed my reply.

< Message edited by onestandingstill -- 3/29/2007 8:40:10 AM >

(in reply to apettiger)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 8:38:48 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		D/s is what I am interested in more than anything else. I can participate in D/s relationships without anything sexual going on. The kinky part may seldom be used, but there is still D/s. It would be nice to get the whole package in one person, but until that time, I am able to get my D/s "fix" through service to a group.

In that Christian marriage you talked about, the women have no choice. The man they may be married to and trying to submit to may be an overgrown child with delusions of grandeur who has no sense of responsibility. That is NOT D/s. IMO that's someone basing their relationship on poor exegesis rather than a good hermenuetic. There is nothing in that kind of relationship that draws me and I'm a service-oriented, very devote, Christian.

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 10:12:16 AM   
hawkwolf7


Posts: 85
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		Just a couple of comments....

1) Yes, on the surface, it appears that the difference between BDSM and a puritan based vanilla marriage is the act of kinky sex. But when you dig a little deeper, what you discover is that BDSM also provides a framework, a vocabulary, and a support group for honest communication about sexual desires and needs. Especially those desires that fall outside the cultural norm. In a puritanical marriage, sex has one purpose: procreation. The concept that it can be or should be pleasurable or fulfilling was discouraged, and considered shameful. In my opinion, that difference alone makes BDSM of inestimable value.

2) I may be off base here, but it appears that the OP considers dealing with sexual fantasies to be a negative. I disagree. I believe that addressing these fantasies, exploring them, talking about them, and even living them is an integral part of understanding and coming to acceptance of our sexual natures. Sure, it's not "real", but that doesn't make it any less important.

HawkWolf

_____________________________

p.s. Everything I write is simply one person's opinion: mine. Feel free to take what is useful and blow off the rest.

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 10:24:18 AM   
apettiger


Posts: 131
Joined: 1/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill


I don't care if others agree with how dedicated to this world I am. I know where I am, where I feel I fit into this world and how much a life encompassing journey this is for me.
If others don't see that they are welcome to their own perspective.
I don't need others to agree with me to know I'm doing the right thing for myself.







bravo my dear, bravo!!

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(in reply to onestandingstill)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 10:44:01 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hawkwolf71) Yes, on the surface, it appears that the difference between BDSM and a puritan based vanilla marriage is the act of kinky sex. But when you dig a little deeper, what you discover is that BDSM also provides a framework, a vocabulary, and a support group for honest communication about sexual desires and needs. Especially those desires that fall outside the cultural norm. In a puritanical marriage, sex has one purpose: procreation. The concept that it can be or should be pleasurable or fulfilling was discouraged, and considered shameful. In my opinion, that difference alone makes BDSM of inestimable value.


i agree and that framework allows participants to achieve levels of emotional maturity and intimacy in a faster more direct fashion....similar to the difference between scaling a building using a tree and balcony's in the darkness,  as opposed to using a sturdy ladder in the daylight.

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(in reply to hawkwolf7)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 10:46:33 AM   
hawkwolf7


Posts: 85
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		One other comment....

I think there are two halves to the issue regarding Tops/Bottoms versus Dom/subs.

I think the first half of this issue is based on an erroneus conclusion. It is true that the focus of discussion on CM tends to revolve around D/s as opposed to the other facets BDSM. But I cannot assess how many people feel okay about their D/s fetish but struggle with accepting the S&M or Discipline desires (and would use D/s as a twisted shield). But, I don't think that you can draw the conclusion that since most people talk about D/s, most are using D/s as a shield. Personally, the conclusion I would draw is that most people have some interest in D/s regardless of their other kinks.

I think the other half of this issue is that of education and experience. It is simply true that it is easier to "find your place" if you only consider the D/s facet of BDSM (which has four "independent" facets). Since many dominants are also sadists to some degree, and many submissives are also masochists to some degree, it is easier to mush D/s and S&M together. And since many D/s relationships include Discipline, this can get mushed into it too. Yes, as we learn more, understand more, and grow, we learn that this nice simple system for shoving ourselves and others into boxes doesn't work. But, because CM has many resources that are critical for the development of new and newer people, there are a disproportionately high number of these people here. Therefore, the simpler view will naturally dominate the discussions.

Sincerely,
HawkWolf

_____________________________

p.s. Everything I write is simply one person's opinion: mine. Feel free to take what is useful and blow off the rest.

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 10:51:49 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: apettiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill


I don't care if others agree with how dedicated to this world I am. I know where I am, where I feel I fit into this world and how much a life encompassing journey this is for me.
If others don't see that they are welcome to their own perspective.
I don't need others to agree with me to know I'm doing the right thing for myself.







bravo my dear, bravo!!


It is an interesting quote.. "I'm doing the right thing for myself?"

To quote  Cheryl Crow...."If it makes you happy it can't be that bad.....Then why in the Hell are you so sad?"

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/29/2007 11:06:46 AM >

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(in reply to apettiger)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 11:02:09 AM   
StellaByStarlite


Posts: 790
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: apettiger

sorry about the looooong post. didnt know it would do that



Oh, that wasn't on purpose? I seriously thought you were constructing free verse poetry, and it was pretty cool  =)

(in reply to apettiger)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 11:08:43 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


I think the vast majority of people who do wiitwd are tops and bottoms, for lack of a better description. They range from casual to serious players, some in relationships and some not. The relationships they are in are not d/s, they don't relate all the time as dom and sub or master and slave. They simply relate as human beings.

I believe there is only a tiny minority of people whe would even attempt to portray themselves as 24/7 lifestyle d/s. While I have respect for their attempt to live a certain way of life, and may have respect for them, for me personally the idea of living such a conditional and defined existence is not one that I could or would ever embrace. And yet  one gets the feeling that everyone is or should be into d/s, otherwise you are just looking for kinky sex. And yet bdsm is more than kinky sex, at least it is for me.



That’s very strange - I've seen this before and I never get it.  How in the world does one person know (or care) what everyone else is doing?  I have some opinions on some people I know, but I would consider it awfully presumptuous to start reaching out to what all BDSMers are doing.

quote:


Sometimes I wonder if  people are using the so called d/s relationship as a justification for engaging in bdsm, as if they are ashamed of their need for kinky sex and fetishism and the acting out of violent fantasy, so they wrap it in the pretty package of master slave or dom sub, and they cloak it with the magic of consenuality and labels, and they privately wear their titles like a twisted shield of legitimacy and a badge of honor.


Honestly? Who cares?  I mean assuming that your assumption/theory/opinion was right, who cares, or rather, why does it matter so much to you?  Reading your profile, this seems to matter a lot and I wonder why.

quote:


The giving of authority or power takes place in any bdsm dynamic, and there is always a blending of the mental and the physical in any bdsm interaction. In my opinion it is therefore the bdsm that is the core difference between how "we" live and how others live. Not the d/s, but the bdsm, the kink, the physical act, whatever you want to call it.


The sadomasochists I know do *not* want any sort of authority of power coming up in what they do and they very strongly have at least told me that its not about power, control, or authority for them.  Being mentally engaged or emotionally connected isn't remotely related to power, control, and authority. 

quote:


One could argue that If you take away the bdsm , the physical aspect of wiitwd,, than you are basically left with a vanilla relationship. The exchange of authority and control exists in relationships all throughout society with no special labels given or needed, it simply is how many people relate. Perhaps it is even the norm. Giving it a name and defining it it and labeling it does not make it any more real. It is what it is.


If you are talking about an egalitarian BDSM/SM relationship then sure you take away the BDSM/SM relationship you are left with an egalitarian structure.  Which is precisely what some people want.

I don't believe that the southern Baptist "submitting to my man" women are remotely submissive except in situations that fit precisely what they want.  Wife Swap on ABC is the most fascinating look at what happens when you take a "traditional" wife and put them into a "non-traditional" household and in most instances the "traditional" wife becomes a henpecking, why don't you grow balls, bitch on wheels and very quickly becomes not terribly submissive.  So I believe that this traditional model that is somehow supposed to be submission is in fact someone who enjoys providing service and being a stay at home mom and pretty much runs the ship.  Not the same thing as being submissive.

quote:



But why is that an insult to some people? Why can't people admit that they are in it for the kink and the fetish and the so called perversions and the alternative sexual behavior that defines bdsm?  Yes they have a need to submit or to dominate, just not all the time.

That does not mean that they are not really submissive or dominant or switches by nature, it means they don't have to be engaging in a conditional manner all the time or pretending to engage in a conditional manner all the time. Why is that some sort of dirty secret to admit, whereas saying one is in a d/s relationship is somehow more meaningful and more real?



How do you know all these things about people?  How do you have this insight on people that you probably don't know that well (or when you are talking about the universe of BDSMers, don't even know at all)?

And most of all, why does it matter so much to you?  It seems to be some sort of crusade, which I find very strange (and allayed once the person gets laid I've found in the past).

C~


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 11:33:58 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: apettiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill


I don't care if others agree with how dedicated to this world I am. I know where I am, where I feel I fit into this world and how much a life encompassing journey this is for me.
If others don't see that they are welcome to their own perspective.
I don't need others to agree with me to know I'm doing the right thing for myself.







bravo my dear, bravo!!


It is an interesting quote.. "I'm doing the right thing for myself?"

To quote  Cheryl Crow...."If it makes you happy it can't be that bad.....Then why in the Hell are you so sad?"

Beacuse knowing what I want, believe, need, enjoy, and where I belong in this world vs having a Master who's all the combinations of what I need to be able to live my dreams and my life in this world isn't matching up very well for me.
It seems 100,000.00 can talk about the ways it should be, what it's supposed to be, and what it is about, but few can live up to that self professed notion.
I'm only half of the lifestyle relationship I need to have to be whole.
Knowing where you belong, but having a chasm as big and deep as the grand canyon in the way of you standing on that ground where your home is, is a really suckey thing that makes me pretty sad.
I sit lonely and terrrified too much to let someone in & fully expect to keep repelling folks for quite some time to come.
It's going to take a long time to build back up hope and faith that I'll find my mate in this lifetime.
It doesn't mean I can't imagine if I had a Master who could keep his word and have his actions match his words that cared about my emotional well being and growth it wouldn't be the most incredible thing I could ever experience.
It just means I've got slimey sore lips from kissing these dang frogs that keep turning into snakes and biting me & injecting my heart with poisons instead of finding the prince who is to be my King one day so I've stopped looking for him.
suzanne

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 11:49:53 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: apettiger

sorry about the looooong post. didnt know it would do that


To end a quote you have to type, without the spaces, [ / quote ]

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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(in reply to apettiger)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: From the Top to the Bottom - 3/29/2007 2:00:47 PM   
Devilslilsister


Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

hy can't people admit that they are in it for the kink and the fetish and the so called perversions and the alternative sexual behavior that defines bdsm?


because i dont particularly like the kink and the fetish aspect of it.  One of the earliest frustrations for Master with me was that i wasnt really happy with any of it.  I didnt like the suction cups, i didnt like the spankings, i didnt like the e stim, i didnt like the clamps, i didnt like being bit, i didnt like being tied up, i dont like the hood, i didnt like being gagged.....i didnt like............ anything that i can remember.  Frustrating, i'm sure as no matter what he brought out to introduce me too....... i was miserable.  While i have grown accostumed to most of it and even feel that some of it is okay... i'm not here because of it and if that was ALL there was too it, i wouldnt be here any longer.

That might be why alot of ppl wont admit what you'd like them to admit.  Maybe, just perhaps, alot of ppl could live with out all of it.  Keeping the authority transfer in tact.  Does that make it vanilla?  Eh, i think not.  There is abit of authority transfer in all relationships (imo) but what it comes down to is the DEGREE. 


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My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
Profile   Post #: 20
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